Dow Jones Drops Below 11,000!

[Bugg]

Trade policies-at least one American company is doing things right and reaping the reward-

It is refreshing in this age of globalization to see a company take a hit on its bottom line to employ American workers. People want high quality products and companies that can cater to their needs. New Balance does this and does it well. But first, let’s understand what free trade has done to American manufacturing.

When the North American Free Trade Agreement was first signed in 1994, proponents said it would eventually create jobs for the U.S. economy.

17 years later, a new report estimates, the American worker only has hundreds of thousands of job losses to show for it.

According to a report by Economic Policy Institute economist Robert Scott, entitled "Heading South: U.S.-Mexico trade and job displacement after NAFTA," an estimated 682,900 U.S. jobs have been "lost or displaced" because of the agreement and the resulting trade deficit.

New Balance, which has 5 plants in New England and employs 1,200 is proud that it is bucking the trend of sending work overseas. For New Balance, quality and sticking to their ideals is more important than massive profits (that is not to say New Balance is not successful, because as everyone knows, it is WILDLY successful). In short, New Balance is a great American company.

At the factory here owned by New Balance, the last major athletic-shoe brand to make footwear in the United States, even the workers recognize the operation doesn't make sense in purely economic terms.

The company could make far more money if, like Nike and Adidas, it shifted virtually all these jobs to low-wage countries.

So employees try each shift to make it up. Conversations on the shop floor are sparse at best, and the tasks at each work station have been stripped of waste and precisely timed.

Workers cut leather for a pair of shoes in 88 seconds, handle precise stitching in 37 seconds, and glue soles to uppers even faster.

"The company already could make more money by going overseas and they know it," said Scott Boulette, 35, a burly team leader who has his son's name tattooed in Gothic letters down his left forearm. "So we hustle."

Now, however, comes what may be an insurmountable challenge. The Obama administration is negotiating a free-trade agreement with Vietnam and seven other countries, and it is unclear whether the plant can stand up to a flood of shoes from that country, already one of the leading exporters of footwear to the United States.

"We are deeply concerned by the inclusion of Vietnam in a potential free-trade agreement," said New Balance CEO Rob DeMartini.

Don’t think these free trade agreements will stop New Balance from hiring Americans.

"If this tariff were lifted, it's not gonna help our business out," says New Balance Plant Manager Welch.

The bottom line is that, no matter how efficient, Americans are 10 times more costly than Vietnamese workers, making the costs per shoe much lower.

"This trade agreement makes me and the staff nervous because it's gonna reduce our competitiveness in making shoes domestically," Welch says.

But New Balance bosses say they will stand by their workers. By adjusting its product line, or its prices, the management has vowed to keep the doors open.

"We will not lay off any of our associates," says New Balance VP of Manufacturing John Wilson.

"They're out there on a limb all by themselves, and we are their limb," says New Balance plant worker Ray Ellis. "We've got to hold them up, so we have to do our part."

Refreshing, right?

[serphnx]

the market is only going up number wise, but when it comes to comparing the market to commodities its dropping like a turd in the toilet bowl. So the market isnt keeping up with commodities or inflation overall. This is what im trying to explain to bit. Bit however is only concerned with making cracks on gold. Which kills me because what he's cracking on is outperforming what he defends. lol.

Um, that is your justification for purchasing gold.

The proper portfolio is getting you income throughout that time through dividend payments. Gold doesn't pay dividends, you get nothing for it until you sell it for actual money, which is the only way you have of determining value.

When stocks go up, you claim it's not keeping up with inflation. When gold goes up, you claim it's still undervalued. Yet gold languished most of the past few decades. About 7 years ago or so gold was just $300. It's only in the past few years that it shot up, whereas the market has had a steady climb. Gold is the definition of a bubble.

It will tank some more today. Gold under $1500 in a few more weeks. Gold only goes up when the economy goes down, otherwise gold is worthless.

I'm going to put in a monster short on gold today.

[JerryK]

If the perceived need of gold as currency goes away, it should go back to it's industrial value which is still not much over 500 mining cost.

[villain_the_foe]

Um, that is your justification for purchasing gold.

The proper portfolio is getting you income throughout that time through dividend payments. Gold doesn't pay dividends, you get nothing for it until you sell it for actual money, which is the only way you have of determining value.

When stocks go up, you claim it's not keeping up with inflation. When gold goes up, you claim it's still undervalued. Yet gold languished most of the past few decades. About 7 years ago or so gold was just $300. It's only in the past few years that it shot up, whereas the market has had a steady climb. Gold is the definition of a bubble.

It will tank some more today. Gold under $1500 in a few more weeks. Gold only goes up when the economy goes down, otherwise gold is worthless.

I'm going to put in a monster short on gold today.

Im not interested in dividends. Im interested in maintaining purchasing power and outperforming inflation and having that money that would have been taxable dividends to continue to work for me. I dont need the wealth of my metals yet because I can afford to live off of the money that I dont put into PM's.

I claim that when stocks go up they're not keeping up with inflation because it isnt. When gold goes up I claim its undervalued because the fundamentals show that. I dont deal in dividends because I dont want to deal with public paper instruments that are taxed when you cash out of the position or when you receive dividends. Im not interested in the beast eating off of me.

I'd rather stick to my method of maintaining wealth because it works for "me" quite well. I'll give you an example. When someone asks me "Do you have income?" I tell them "no", and when they ask me "well how do you live and support yourself then?" my answer to them is "quite well, thank you".

Gold and Silver is money. And they dont go up necessarily, its that the dollar goes down. There was a time where one dollar was 1/35th of an oz of gold. Now its 1/1,750th of a oz of gold. You can call gold worthless and thats cool with me. I know better than that.

Your monster short in gold will only add to the massive naked shorts of other establishments which in this environment only makes me want to buy more physical against those shorts....and I'll get it at a very cheap price thanks to your short. So let me thank you in advance lol.

I can live with that. I'd just like to put out there that no one needs to agree with me. But gold has been doing what the fundamentals show so agreeing or not agreeing with me doesnt change the amount in my savings......without the need of a taxable dividend. Better yet, Gold pays much more than public paper dividends with "private wealth ownership". But I know that private property is so overrated these days.

EDIT: And as I said before, I expect a temporary fall or time consolidation in the gold market. Nothing goes straight up. I've said that atleast 5 times but when it happens I bet people will come to me and be like "see, gold isnt money and is a bad investment because its a bubble", not understanding the fundamentals in the first place.

Gold in my possession works for me, and has outperformed the stock market for over a decade and will continue for another decade because the bullsh*t wont change and there's too much toxicity in the system.

I'd rather have my money out of that system because I dont trust the system. Thats all. If I have to sacrifice a "taxable paper dividend on a stock that I dont privately own", then so be it. If I need cash I can sell an oz within the hour and have my money RIGHT NOW.....privately, without anyone knowing what I did or didnt do with what I have or with some filthy establishment with their hand out saying that I owe them something. Or with a bank waiting for the funds to clear which will take them a few days. My dividend is having my wealth in my hand anytime I need it to be, and I prefer it that way.

And this is in no way hating on your point of view. This is exactly how we learn from one another. If we all thought the same life wouldnt be so awesome. This is the way that im going to protect the wealth that me and mine have worked for. Personal opinion of gold doesnt bother me, as long as gold "works" for me. From here on out my money will work for me, it wont just sit there idle waiting for me to spend it or for me to give it to some company in the hopes that they can do better with my money than I can. And I dont need immediate dividends because I dont have a problem sitting on my wealth thats working for me. I dont have an itchy hand. I can sit a few more years on it and forget about it.....except when im adding to the position. Im in Gold and Silver 95% and cash 5%. That portfolio works for me.

I think that im smart enough to take care of myself. I'd prefer that I take financial responsibility. That doesnt mean that if you get into some stocks/shares with dividends that you couldnt do well. People who understand the market can really make a killing. Im not looking to make a killing, im looking to like a nice private life with private ownership.

[villain_the_foe]

If the perceived need of gold as currency goes away, it should go back to it's industrial value which is still not much over 500 mining cost.

what % of golds price is influenced by industry needs? Its not much, maybe 10%. Gold isnt an industrial metal. Its a monetary metal. If the need for Gold as currency goes away then that would have to happen on a planetary level....and with every major country buying gold with their dollar reserves, I really doubt that it would be the case.

Silver is both an industrial and monetary metal. I have a feeling though that industry wont impact the price as so many people expect as industry goes down because of this very reason. Silver is a byproduct of mining other metals. Its not like we have alot of pure silver mines. If industry goes down we'll stop mining copper too which is where alot of silver comes from as a byproduct.

People however when they finally wake up will be putting their currency into metals because of the dangers of paper assets. We have no more large holdings of Silver in vaults because the industry has consumed it all the past 30 years.

The price will eventually go up and the fundamentals behind it is the fact that people now are reawaken to the fact that its money.

Your statement isnt impossible, but the probability of that, especially what we're seeing today with central banks of countries shows the complete opposite of your statement.

[villain_the_foe]

Didn't the Dow Jones dip under 10,000 a few years back? It could be a lot worse, although I have no faith in that BS gambling system known as the stock market. Stocks go up based on how people THINK a company is going to do, rather than how they actually do. Makes no sense at all. Get rid of that crap.

Im not concerned about the numbers on that level. The fact is that its taking a huge amount of inflation just to keep the market steady. That means that the purchasing power of the stock market is going down yet the numbers are steady between 10,000-14,000.

Why care about the steadiness when everything else like food is outperforming it? The market in relation to the amount of money being produced is falling.

[bitonti]

in the study of Human behavior. there is the idea that we are more effected by something that causes us pain than something that benefits us (causes us pleasure). It might date back to cave man days, we were more scared of the sabre tooth tiger than we were happy to avoid him.

in the Jets draft, for example, more people bash the pick of Gholston than we praise the pick of Revis. I don't see threads about how Revis is such a great pick, we just kinda gloss over that. but when there's a gholston sighting we revel in the pain of a bad pick.

in the context of the stock market, it certainly is true that when the market is down (the so-called crash of last week) everyone panics, but look at the numbers again (and not in the Villain way of throwing the numbers out the window just because) the market is not only up, it's been up for several years. Can we call it a crash it it totally recovers in a day or two? Historically speaking, not really.

[bitonti]

Gold in my possession works for me, and has outperformed the stock market for over a decade and will continue for another decade because the bullsh*t wont change and there's too much toxicity in the system.

It doesn't work for you until you sell it. Until then, it just sits there, acting all gold-y.

serious question have you ever sold gold?

[villain_the_foe]

It doesn't work for you until you sell it. Until then, it just sits there, acting all gold-y.

serious question have you ever sold gold?

It works for me because it protects my savings. What part of that do you not understand?

Yes, I've sold gold and silver before.

[villain_the_foe]

in the study of Human behavior. there is the idea that we are more effected by something that causes us pain than something that benefits us (causes us pleasure). It might date back to cave man days, we were more scared of the sabre tooth tiger than we were happy to avoid him.

in the Jets draft, for example, more people bash the pick of Gholston than we praise the pick of Revis. I don't see threads about how Revis is such a great pick, we just kinda gloss over that. but when there's a gholston sighting we revel in the pain of a bad pick.

in the context of the stock market, it certainly is true that when the market is down (the so-called crash of last week) everyone panics, but look at the numbers again (and not in the Villain way of throwing the numbers out the window just because) the market is not only up, it's been up for several years. Can we call it a crash it it totally recovers in a day or two? Historically speaking, not really.

I guess we cant look at it the way "villain" does because he brings a perspective that shows that what you said is not true????? lol. You're entitled to that bro! And for the record, this isnt a "panic" on my behalf, this is well thought out and im certainly looking to make a massive profit off of it.

[bitonti]

I guess we cant look at it the way "villain" does because he brings a perspective that shows that what you said is not true????? lol. You're entitled to that bro!

you say things like "the market is up, but not really because the numbers are inflated"

what does that even mean? ya know what, forget I asked. I don't want to hear it.

the numbers are the numbers. And yes they are up again today.

[villain_the_foe]

you say things like "the market is up, but not really because the numbers are inflated"

what does that even mean? ya know what, forget I asked. I don't want to hear it.

the numbers are the numbers. And yes they are up again today.

When you're ready to learn what inflation does to the value of those numbers, drop me a comment.

[bitonti]

whatever inflation is doing to the market it's doing to the value of gold as well. now is how you tell me the dollar value of gold is different from the real value of gold/ I guess that makes sense if you live in Europe or Japan.

by the way a little inflation is good for things. It almost always happens in healthy economies, and is way better than deflation.

[Jetlag]

It doesn't work for you until you sell it. Until then, it just sits there, acting all gold-y.

serious question have you ever sold gold?

You're 401K isn't any good until you retire. You count your house as an asset but you really don't have that money until you sell it. What's the difference? Nothing is good until you sell it. Why is it that you don't just see PM's the same way?

[villain_the_foe]

whatever inflation is doing to the market it's doing to the value of gold as well. now is how you tell me the dollar value of gold is different from the real value of gold/ I guess that makes sense if you live in Europe or Japan.

by the way a little inflation is good for things. It almost always happens in healthy economies, and is way better than deflation.

Gold and silver goes up multiple ways. One way we see today is accounting for the amount of money being printed. Gold's denominated value is rising because of inflation. However, globally about 2-3% of people even own investment grade gold in their portfolios. So the rise in gold cant be based on bubble fundamentals because 98% of the global population doesnt even own the stuff. This is the best time to get in because no only is it undervalued but its also underbought.

At the height of the 1980 gold mania, 30% of the people who were able to participate in that mania actually participated, and during that time there were only a handful of countries even participating. Today, the entire world has the ability to participate yet only 2-3% of the population has physical in their possession.

The rise that we're seeing is inflation. You're right, but that rise only shows that the metals are undervalued and has much more room to move. Also, once people begin to see the trend on a larger scale and you have more of a public demand for gold and silver than the demand will cause prices and premiums to rise, not because of inflation, but now because of demand.

Like I said, Gold, Silver and farmland will be the investments of the decade. And the people who dont have these items will be forced to play the paper game. Bitonti, I am sooooo okay with you playing that paper game brother. Trust me, Im not trying to convince you not to. I just know what im doing. And it seems stupid today, but thats exactly why im doing it today. Because when the rest of the world sees it as "the place to be", I'll be selling to the rest of the world in order to put that profit into another hard asset, manly land.

Dude, lets agree to disagree. Gold is a stupid investment and it doesnt do anything for you until you cash it out. I heard you my dude. I dont want to argue with you because obviously you're correct.

[Jetlag]

whatever inflation is doing to the market it's doing to the value of gold as well. now is how you tell me the dollar value of gold is different from the real value of gold/ I guess that makes sense if you live in Europe or Japan.

by the way a little inflation is good for things. It almost always happens in healthy economies, and is way better than deflation.

In 500 years economics teachers will tell their students this was the biggest hoax man believed in economically. This is the next world wide truth that man will come to "discover", sort of like the earth is round or that there weren't sun and moon gods. People in the future will think "How did they actually believe that?"

[villain_the_foe]

You're 401K isn't any good until you retire. You count your house as an asset but you really don't have that money until you sell it. What's the difference? Nothing is good until you sell it. Why is it that you don't just see PM's the same way?

He doesnt understand that you dont "spend" your savings. You save it.

If Gold protects my savings from inflation/stagflation then wouldnt it be doing me a service by "NOT" selling it? Its not his fault. He went to public school like the rest of us lol.

Gold/Silver/Farmland. I guarantee in 10 years the outlook on those 3 assets will be looked upon in a much more positive light than it is today.

So me and you are early to the party lag.

[villain_the_foe]

In 500 years economics teachers will tell their students this was the biggest hoax man believed in economically. This is the next world wide truth that man will come to "discover", sort of like the earth is round or that there weren't sun and moon gods. People in the future will think "How did they actually believe that?"

The world is flat Jetlag, stop spreading that filth that the world is round! lol.

[Jetlag]

He doesnt understand that you dont "spend" your savings. You save it.

If Gold protects my savings from inflation/stagflation then wouldnt it be doing me a service by "NOT" selling it? Its not his fault. He went to public school like the rest of us lol.

Gold/Silver/Farmland. I guarantee in 10 years the outlook on those 3 assets will be looked upon in a much more positive light than it is today.

So me and you are early to the party lag.

In all honesty Villian, we're actually not being very smart about this. For one the less people knowing about this manipulation, the more for us to acquire. Secondly now way to many people know that we are holding PM's so that when the riots hit and Gold/Silver go through the roof, that's just more ammo we'll have to use.

[villain_the_foe]

In all honesty Villian, we're actually not being very smart about this. For one the less people knowing about this manipulation, the more for us to acquire. Secondly now way to many people know that we are holding PM's so that when the riots hit and Gold/Silver go through the roof, that's just more ammo we'll have to use.

This is true. That'll be suicide on their part though. An AR15 with a thousand rounds will last me 5 minutes on semiautomatic! I've had some relatives in the service myself.

[bitonti]

And it seems stupid today, but thats exactly why im doing it today. Because when the rest of the world sees it as "the place to be", I'll be selling to the rest of the world in order to put that profit into another hard asset, manly land.

Dude, lets agree to disagree. Gold is a stupid investment and it doesnt do anything for you until you cash it out. I heard you my dude. I dont want to argue with you because obviously you're correct.

I never used the word stupid.

you started this thread. About how the Dow was falling. remember that?

even now the thread is about how smart you and lag's viewpoints are

just to be clear I'm disputing the facts but I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid

I dont think Gold is stupid. I applaud your gold collection.

where you and I disagree is the fundamental role of fiat currency. it's gone and the old way (commodity currency) would be a step backward.

[bitonti]

when the riots hit and Gold/Silver go through the roof, that's just more ammo we'll have to use.

when the riots come

what will you buy with your gold?

more ammo? your freedom in a mad max world gone mad?

[Maxman]

So all the losses from last week were erased today? Is that true?

If so, that was pretty fast.

[Jetlag]

when the riots come

what will you buy with your gold?

more ammo? your freedom in a mad max world gone mad?

I'll probably be able to get the island of Manhattan on the cheap.

[villain_the_foe]

So all the losses from last week were erased today? Is that true?

If so, that was pretty fast.

The market is down over 1,250 from its late July position. The market has been falling since that time and is 10% off its july high.

[villain_the_foe]

I never used the word stupid.

you started this thread. About how the Dow was falling. remember that?

even now the thread is about how smart you and lag's viewpoints are

just to be clear I'm disputing the facts but I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid

I dont think Gold is stupid. I applaud your gold collection.

where you and I disagree is the fundamental role of fiat currency. it's gone and the old way (commodity currency) would be a step backward.

I do remember that. I also remember that we were having this very conversation before I started this particular thread. I remember the Dow being over 12,700.....yet today its at 11,400, which to be fair it showed a nice recovery from its low of below 11,000. My point though is still quite valid. Maybe you remember what we were talking about.

We talked about the market declining, and in that respect it still hasnt recovered because its down over 1,250 pts from its place in late July (still 10% below its July high). Also, and our most important comparison was Gold to the market. When we started this convo the market was around 12,500....gold was around 1,490. So lets compare.

July: The DOW was over 12,500 Gold was 1,490. (Dow had a high of 12,750)

Today: The Dow is at 11,480 and Gold is at 1,770. (Gold had a high of 1,820)

I remember alot about our conversation. It just seems that you like to pick and chose what you like to remember and hold on to the fact that the market rallied over 800 points from its low "Last week", but since our conversation the DOW has dropped over 2000 points and is still down 1,250 from its high in July. So it hasnt recovered. In that same span of time Gold went from 1,490 to a high of over 1,800 and has retraced to 1,770 today.

Our conversation was based on the comparison of Gold to the market.....hasnt gold been outperforming the market? Hasnt Gold been making all time highs?

And yes, those are too questions that I would like you to answer. Of course I will state that my viewpoints are smart because since our conversation about gold and the markets, gold has been outpacing the markets as I stated they would...based on fundamentals of both markets. Gold is undervalued and underbought and the dow is overvalued and overbought.

I dont mean to sound like Im ganging up on you with Jetlag. I dont need him to do so. The moves in the DOW and Gold speaks for themselves.

You keep concentrating on these moves that the DOW is making, but all its doing is regaining the ground it lost in less than a month and still has 10% more to recover. Gold has jumped over $300 an oz since our original discussion on the subject.

The best info you've put forth is that Gold does nothing for you until you cash it in. Which that isnt even true if it protects that savings you have.

Like I said, I remember the conversation well. Please answer the two questions that I asked. Thanks.

[serphnx]

So all the losses from last week were erased today? Is that true?

If so, that was pretty fast.

I think it's still down about 5%.

Remember the Dow was around 12,900 less than a month ago, and now it's what, 11,500? S&P is still only around 1200, whereas before the drop it was at least around 1333 or so. These are all better numbers than the 10,400 and 1050 or so bottoms 2 weeks ago, but most people are still trying to get back to even from a month ago.

Unless you're an active trader, your pension plan and such are all still down sizeably.

Stocks generally take the stairs on the way up and the elevator on the way down. 2 weeks wiped out 2 years worth of gains pretty much. 1 week isn't going to get that back, if you're very hopeful maybe about 2 months, and then it'll probably pop down again, this time even further.

[JerryK]

This is true. That'll be suicide on their part though. An AR15 with a thousand rounds will last me 5 minutes on semiautomatic! I've had some relatives in the service myself.

Villain, I was just thinking about something...considering your end-of-the-world concerns.

If you've bought gold when it was low, why don't you sell a bunch now and buy rural property in Michigan? A couple acres on a river might run you as little as 40k. You'd have a good water supply, and with a windmill + solar you could probably live off the grid.

[bitonti]

I do remember that. I also remember that we were having this very conversation before I started this particular thread. I remember the Dow being over 12,700....

Like I said, I remember the conversation well. Please answer the two questions that I asked. Thanks.

what are the 2 questions

also if the Dow goes up to 12,700, what will that change? Will you come back to this thread and say currency is awesome? why are you looking at the July high? I can point to a Mar 2009 low of 6600 and say the current market is amazing, why are we comparing to extremes?

you are looking at this as a long game, which is fine... but it's possible to buy on Monday when it's down 500 sell on Tuesday when it's up 500 you can't really do that with gold.

[villain_the_foe]

Villain, I was just thinking about something...considering your end-of-the-world concerns.

If you've bought gold when it was low, why don't you sell a bunch now and buy rural property in Michigan? A couple acres on a river might run you as little as 40k. You'd have a good water supply, and with a windmill + solar you could probably live off the grid.

Im buying some land outside of muenster germany. Me and the wife are looking for the best place to do so. Im certainly getting out of the city. The only reason why im still here is to make more money to save up as well as to learn certain skills before I leave. Being a city guy I wouldnt know what to do with the land. This October Im going to tennessee on a two week survivalist trip to learn how to cultivate land, understand what type of land I need etc.

This will be a big move so I need to be as prepared as possible. Im certainly trying to get as far off the grid as possible but I have to learn first.

[villain_the_foe]

what are the 2 questions

also if the Dow goes up to 12,700, what will that change? Will you come back to this thread and say currency is awesome? why are you looking at the July high? I can point to a Mar 2009 low of 6600 and say the current market is amazing, why are we comparing to extremes?

you are looking at this as a long game, which is fine... but it's possible to buy on Monday when it's down 500 sell on Tuesday when it's up 500 you can't really do that with gold.

You're right, I am looking at this long term. I dont have the time or the capacity to guess when to sell the Dow/buy the Dow just to try to make a profit on a daily basis when I can just forget the Dow and get into one commodity and leave it there. That statement alone shows how bad of a bet the Dow is.

If you didnt see those two quetions then that means that you didnt read my entire comment. Dont worry about it.

Speaking of lows that you point to, I can point to highs in the DOW market and I can show you how Gold STILL has outpaced the DOW.

In 2000 the Dow had a high of over 12,000 and Gold was sitting around 270. Thats a Gold to Dow ratio of 45/1 right? Today the Dow, which is now down again, sits at 11,356 and Gold, which is up again, is sitting at 1,783. Thats a Gold to Dow ratio of 6/1. The Silver to Dow ratio in 2000 was 3000/1, today that ratio is 240/1. Those are INSANE moves, especially in the silver market. A monster box of silver eagles for example comes with 500 oz in a box. In 2000 you would have needed 6 monster boxes just to get one share of the Dow. Today you need less than a half monster box to buy one share of the Dow. And this comparison of the Dow is against a real, finite, tangible financial asset.....real money. Also, the Dollar index back in 2000 was around 100. Today that dollar index is at 74. So not only is the dow dropping number wise, but the value of the dollar that its denominated in is dropping as well.

This is all I want you to see Bit. You continue about the numbers and what im saying is that the value of those numbers have declined when compared to real tangible assets like Gold/Silver/food etc. The Dow buys you less. And if thats the case then what is the point of owning the Dow? Isnt the purpose of investing to build purchasing power? Well, people who are in the dow are seeing things get more expensive because they're "losing" purchasing power. <<<<<This is the point you're missing.

Now look at Silver. In 2000 Gas was around $1.50 a gallon. A 90% Silver quarter (our old money) was worth about 72 cent with the price of silver at $4 an oz right. Now todays Gas is about $4 a gallon and that same 90% silver quarter (our old money) is at $7.21 cent. So as you can see, a person dealing in "real money", everyday commodities like gas has been actually getting cheaper. However, we're dealing in fiat money, and look at the outrage of people when talking about the price of gas lol. So where you could only buy a half gallon in 2000 with that quarter, today you can buy 2 gallons. Thats 4 times the value against stuff that you buy on a daily basis. Can the Dow say that its up 4x against the stuff you buy on a daily basis? Of course it cant because the Dow has been losing "purchasing power". Yet you havent seen that because you're stuck on the numbers....but the numbers arent as valuable as the used to be. $20 in 2000 could buy you more than that $20 today, plain and simple. You need your savings in an asset that can keep up with and/or outpace that inflation. Dow for that same amount of time you'd be losing purchasing power as well as being more than 3000 points off its high in 2007 of over 14,000.

And im not even mentioning the stimulus and QE packages that was presented to keep the markets afloat. The DOW is losing purchasing power, and that wealth is finding its way into hard financial instruments like gold and silver as well as commodities like food. The last time the Dow seen an all time high was 4 years ago. The last time Gold seen an all time high was last week.

[bitonti]

ill grant you that gold at 270$ in the year 2000 was a smoking deal. Now I think it's overvalued. there's no reasonable explanation for platinum to be worth less than gold.

[villain_the_foe]

ill grant you that gold at 270$ in the year 2000 was a smoking deal. Now I think it's overvalued. there's no reasonable explanation for platinum to be worth less than gold.

Tell me why its overvalued. Tell me why its in a bubble. As I said before, you just cant say that.

Also, for a person who can spot overvalue and bubbles, how do you not see the bubble in the markets? The market has literally been trading sideways for over a decade dude. It was 12,000 in 2000 and its 11,000 today. Its been trading sideways for 12 years and needed a massive dose of stimulus and two shots of QE to continue to trade sideways. Companies have been going under this decade, Banks have been going under every week in this country for 3 years. Tech bubbles popped, Housing markets popped. Derivatives are about to pop.

You have ALL THIS EVIDENCE on the market yet you tell me that Gold is in a bubble? Gold has been going every year consistently. Gold has been out performing the Dow and "every currency/market on the planet" for over a decade. The top of the market was hit in 2000, then again in 06'-07' and the market was saved multiple times with stimulus. The market has been downgraded not just by S&P but by China who OWNS OUR DEBT.

This is my case for why the market is in a bubble and will eventually tank like it will because it hasnt shown strong legged stability in YEARS.

Now explain to me how Gold is in a bubble. You just cant expect me to accept that gold is simply "overvalued" and that be it. 80% of Gold owned isnt even gold but paper promises. Oh, a Platinum is no longer cheaper than gold. As I told you before, maybe you remember ("Maybe Platinum is undervalued and needs a jump in price to fix that sitaution").....well, given that statement 1 week ago Platinum has moved $125 dollars since then and is now more than gold with gold over $1,800.

Lastly, for a person who "knows rarity in metals". Why is it that you're quiet about the price of silver being at 40 dollars and at a 45/1 ratio to gold when anyone with a clue knows that historically silver was at a 15/1 ration to gold and that was with a massive silver abundance above ground which we no longer have today given industry consumption.

Wouldnt your look at platinum work the same for Silver? Wouldnt that mean that 1,800 gold mean a 3 digit Silver price?

Hmm. Bubble huh? lol.

[serphnx]

Does gold have dividend payments? No? Guess you only make money when you sell it then.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Does gold have dividend payments? No? Guess you only make money when you sell it then.

Thats a problem with all commodity acquisitions. Infact there is some overhead to acquisition and storage!

Question is do you want dividend's in a devaluating currency where the underlying asset is propped up by the largesse of the FED and no guarantees it can substain its value in the future

OR

an asset which at the end of the day is the only true reflection of wealth and hence will continue to appreciate while the fiat currencies are debased or may become worthless.

P.S: Venezuela just nationalized its gold industry today. The ripple effects of this will be felt in paper markets as well as physical ones!