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Dow Jones Drops Below 11,000!


villain_the_foe
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Thats a problem with all commodity acquisitions. Infact there is some overhead to acquisition and storage!

Question is do you want dividend's in a devaluating currency where the underlying asset is propped up by the largesse of the FED and no guarantees it can substain its value in the future

OR

an asset which at the end of the day is the only true reflection of wealth and hence will continue to appreciate while the fiat currencies are debased or may become worthless.

P.S: Venezuela just nationalized its gold industry today. The ripple effects of this will be felt in paper markets as well as physical ones!

The only value gold has is in what is assigned to it. The day our currency becomes worthless is the day gold officially becomes worthless as well.

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The only value gold has is in what is assigned to it. The day our currency becomes worthless is the day gold officially becomes worthless as well.

Actually thats true for any asset. The value of an asset is what a buyer is willing to pay for it.

Money does not go away. We need it in some form to conduct trade. But the forms of currency change. Till 1971 dollar were bound by the gold standard and that was done away with. All it became was pure paper currency. And paper currency can be devalued as far as the imagination runs. In Zimbabwe for example they have currency notes each worth quad-trillion dollars. And all that can possible buy you is a sandwich and that too without extra ketchup.

The day our currency becomes completely worthless the value of gold will be skyhigh. Because that or silver will be used as a currency for trade and to buy STUFF. The dollar bills might be used by people who want to save money on toilet paper.

In Essence the relation between dollars and gold is inversly proportional! As the value of dollar has gone down the value of gold has gone up,

And if you want to check that you can try plotting a chart on Yahoo Finance or one of those sites of ^DXY index vs Gold prices (or GLD the paper ETF of gold as it might be easier to find)

In the real world don't think the dollar becomes completely worthless. But it will have significantly lot less worth and buying power as compared to today.

Edited by JetsFanInDenver
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The only value gold has is in what is assigned to it. The day our currency becomes worthless is the day gold officially becomes worthless as well.

Thats a pretty arrogant and uneducated statement. Our fiat currency has only been the "fiat" standard for 40 years We were gold/silver backed beforehand. Also, in the thousands of years that Gold and Silver played its usual monetary role, when have they ever went to zero...or as you stated, worthless?

What makes our fiat currency any different from every fiat before it that have all failed? None of those fiat currencies made gold "officially" worthless.

Where do you get that from?

Edited by villain_the_foe
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Thats a pretty arrogant and uneducated statement. Our fiat currency has only been the "fiat" standard for 40 years We were gold/silver backed beforehand. Also, in the thousands of years that Gold and Silver played its usual monetary role, when have they ever went to zero...or as you stated, worthless?

What makes our fiat currency any different from every fiat before it that have all failed? None of those fiat currencies made gold "officially" worthless.

Where do you get that from?

You're the uneducated kook who thinks a shiny metal will somehow have worth when the entire system collapses, which you think will happen. If the entire system collapses, you will have no power, no security, no food and everyone will be roving around looting and pillaging. It is just such a stupid scenario to believe in. You think you're going to walk up to a grocery store and hand over some silver and get some groceries? Then hop in your car and drive back home, filling up for gas on the way back?

Do you not even realize how stupid your scenario is?

Gold/silver were worthless even all the way back in Rome. They initially started out as the currency then afterwards different mixes were used as currency instead. And this was thousands of years ago. About what, 30 years ago, the government just CONFISCATED all physical gold. If the currency becomes devalued into this ridiculous scenario, they'll show up at your door and take it again, even though the entire scenario is dumb.

Here is what will really happen if our currency ceases to exist:

You will have a bunch of shiny metals. You won't have any gasoline to drive so you will try and walk somewhere. When you walk around with your bag of gold a gang of people will just shoot you and take your gold. Then they'll walk to your home and take the rest of it, and shoot down your family. You won't be able to call the cops because apparently they aren't working anymore since currency doesn't exist.

You have the most ridiculous sheltered view of the world I've ever seen. Go head out to Nigeria or some other third world country where people are poor and crime is rampant. That is what would happen if the US collapses. That is why people flock to this country.

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You're the uneducated kook who thinks a shiny metal will somehow have worth when the entire system collapses, which you think will happen. If the entire system collapses, you will have no power, no security, no food and everyone will be roving around looting and pillaging. It is just such a stupid scenario to believe in. You think you're going to walk up to a grocery store and hand over some silver and get some groceries? Then hop in your car and drive back home, filling up for gas on the way back?

Do you not even realize how stupid your scenario is?

Gold/silver were worthless even all the way back in Rome. They initially started out as the currency then afterwards different mixes were used as currency instead. And this was thousands of years ago. About what, 30 years ago, the government just CONFISCATED all physical gold. If the currency becomes devalued into this ridiculous scenario, they'll show up at your door and take it again, even though the entire scenario is dumb.

Here is what will really happen if our currency ceases to exist:

You will have a bunch of shiny metals. You won't have any gasoline to drive so you will try and walk somewhere. When you walk around with your bag of gold a gang of people will just shoot you and take your gold. Then they'll walk to your home and take the rest of it, and shoot down your family. You won't be able to call the cops because apparently they aren't working anymore since currency doesn't exist.

You have the most ridiculous sheltered view of the world I've ever seen. Go head out to Nigeria or some other third world country where people are poor and crime is rampant. That is what would happen if the US collapses. That is why people flock to this country.

There's 6,000 years of history saying the scenario listed above is completely wrong.

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There's 6,000 years of history saying the scenario listed above is completely wrong.

Understanding history makes you an uneducated kook. :blink:

Please refrain from using 6000 years worth of accurate history. Kooks only use such quackery. Man made fiat money is the only true wealth....and dont you forget it. :lol:

Edited by villain_the_foe
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You're the uneducated kook who thinks a shiny metal will somehow have worth when the entire system collapses, which you think will happen. If the entire system collapses, you will have no power, no security, no food and everyone will be roving around looting and pillaging. It is just such a stupid scenario to believe in. You think you're going to walk up to a grocery store and hand over some silver and get some groceries? Then hop in your car and drive back home, filling up for gas on the way back?

Do you not even realize how stupid your scenario is?

Gold/silver were worthless even all the way back in Rome. They initially started out as the currency then afterwards different mixes were used as currency instead. And this was thousands of years ago. About what, 30 years ago, the government just CONFISCATED all physical gold. If the currency becomes devalued into this ridiculous scenario, they'll show up at your door and take it again, even though the entire scenario is dumb.

Here is what will really happen if our currency ceases to exist:

You will have a bunch of shiny metals. You won't have any gasoline to drive so you will try and walk somewhere. When you walk around with your bag of gold a gang of people will just shoot you and take your gold. Then they'll walk to your home and take the rest of it, and shoot down your family. You won't be able to call the cops because apparently they aren't working anymore since currency doesn't exist.

You have the most ridiculous sheltered view of the world I've ever seen. Go head out to Nigeria or some other third world country where people are poor and crime is rampant. That is what would happen if the US collapses. That is why people flock to this country.

lol....sounds like im getting under your skin. I have a natural ability of doing that. Shall we continue?

#1. I own shiny metal (lol)

#2. Gold and Silver was never worthless in Rome. The Roman shekel went worthless after the the temple debased the shekel from the 11 grams of silver it originally consisted of with more and more copper to continue to fund the Roman war machine.

#3. Im getting under your skin

#4. The government confiscated gold, which the majority of that Gold came from bank holdings. Only a few citizens actually gave in their gold, and the ones who didnt obviously kept their wealth, and the even smarter ones were able to use it on the freemarket. Today we call it the black market.

#5. Gold is money which can be circulated, so Gold is also currency...which is one of many attributes of money.

#6. I have a ridiculous sheltered view of the world. Funny that is because you talk about having "security" and im the one who says that I'd prefer the establishment to simply move out of the way. lol.

#7. My scenario is stupid, though everyday its unfortunately becoming more of a reality. Understand this, this situation isnt something that I wish upon a star for. People are going to get hurt when this wealth transfer occurs. Me finally understanding my surroundings I've simply decided to be and the profitable side of the transfer.

#8. Gold has been valuable for thousands of years. No man made fiat currency has ever lasted more than a century. yet you call grabbing gold and silver in replacement of paper promissory notes a stupid idea. Cool, let it be stupid. But I'll be trading in my fiat paperbacks for as much real assets as I possibly can. And if it ends up to be a bad decision then it didnt hurt you one bit now did it?

#9. I just wanted to put "#9" lol.

#10. The only reason why your currency is what it is today is because of another type of gold.....black gold. And like black gold the second most consumed commodity on the face of this planet (only 2nd to oil) is a very shiny metal called.............SILVER. (Im just messing with you Serp, no hard feelings bro).

On a serious note though, Fiat currency doesnt give value to a commodity, so what the commodity is denominated in doesnt matter in the true scheme of things because the commodity intrinsically has use no matter what currency its denominated in. On the flip side, the only reason why the dollar is even still valid is that though many countries have decided to go around buying "petro dollars" for oil, the bottomline is that today all commodities are still denominated in USD. That's why the dollar hasnt crumbled yet, because lets face it, you cant have debt 10 times the size of the economy that the currency represents and you tell me that its a viable currency.

You understand that, then you'll understand whats happening in the world.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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6000 years of history says we're all poor farmers that only live into our 20s and die of the Plague. That's the history you want to cite?

Yet again, with the inaccurate information. Farmers were some of the most wealthiest people on the planet. They only began to become poor when the decided to accept subsidies from the govt. Once the government got hold of the farmers they indebted them through their agreements and with that controlled what they can grow and the amount in which they grow it. Why do you think im holding on to real wealth and getting out of debt? Its called "freedom".

You find me a farmer who doesnt take govt hand outs and I'll show you a farmer who is making minimum $100,000 a year on 25 acres or less.

I understand dude, public school messed me up too bro.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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Yet again, with the inaccurate information. Farmers were some of the most wealthiest people on the planet. They only began to become poor when the decided to accept subsidies from the govt. Once the government got hold of the farmers they indebted them through their agreements and with that controlled what they can grow and the amount in which they grow it. Why do you think im holding on to real wealth and getting out of debt? Its called "freedom".

You find me a farmer who doesnt take govt hand outs and I'll show you a farmer who is making minimum $100,000 a year on 25 acres or less.

I understand dude, public school messed me up too bro.

$100,000 a year? Not 20 ounces of gold a year?

At least talk like the gold means something, all you ever do is use USD as your valuation method, yet you don't see how ridiculous that is.

Edited by serphnx
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$100,000 a year? Not 20 ounces of gold a year?

At least talk like the gold means something, all you ever do is use USD as your valuation method, yet you don't see how ridiculous that is.

+1 the world trades gold in dollars. the world trades oil in dollars. They do not trade oil in gold.

the idea that it's gonna be Zimbabwe like inflation and gold will take it's rightful place... it's misguided. the dollar is king and if there comes a day when that's not true, it's going to be another currency that replaces it, not gold.

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$100,000 a year? Not 20 ounces of gold a year?

At least talk like the gold means something, all you ever do is use USD as your valuation method, yet you don't see how ridiculous that is.

Oil is denominated in USD but that doesnt meant that oil doesnt mean anything without the economic denomination. Just like If there was a collapse here the rest of the world would still use oil. If there's a default here, the rest of the world would still use gold as the ultimate form of money, because thats what it is.

Lastly, I only use "dollars" because your training only allows you to understand that as wealth.....and wealth is what I wanted to portray to you. If I would have said 90 oz of Gold that wouldnt have reached your mind as alot of money. Me sounding or not sounding like gold means something doesnt take away from the absolute reality that it is.

You have moot points and they're only based on criticisms of my thought pattern than actual fact. This isnt the first time that I was told that my thoughts and outlooks were stupid or outrageous. Usually the people who say that are all part of "group think", so it doesnt bother me.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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+1 the world trades gold in dollars. the world trades oil in dollars. They do not trade oil in gold.

the idea that it's gonna be Zimbabwe like inflation and gold will take it's rightful place... it's misguided. the dollar is king and if there comes a day when that's not true, it's going to be another currency that replaces it, not gold.

The world no longer "collectively" trades oil in dollars. Just ask China and Russia with their bilateral trade agreements. Saddam Hussein began trading Iraqi oil in Euro's and refused to join the IMF before we went in there to "free" the Iraqi's. Iran trades oil in everything BUT dollars.

Also, they do trade oil in gold. you name me a time where a country wanted to buy oil in gold and that country was denied.................................I'll wait.

Update your world information, things have changed.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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+1 the world trades gold in dollars. the world trades oil in dollars. They do not trade oil in gold.

the idea that it's gonna be Zimbabwe like inflation and gold will take it's rightful place... it's misguided. the dollar is king and if there comes a day when that's not true, it's going to be another currency that replaces it, not gold.

Which currency ?

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The markets are back up over 11,000. Can we delete this thread now?

I forgot to tell you as well. The market is down over 400 points again and is back below 11,000.

Cant delete the thread.

P.S. I find it funny how you didnt mention the market ALL DAY today. You said that I only talk about the market when its down. I havent said a word on the market today.....and neither did you. I bet if it was up today I would have heard alot about it huh? No worries, BUY THE DIP! (if you want to lose your savings).

Lastly, Gold just made another all time high today.

Lets do this bit. Could we just look back on this scenario and come to the conclusion that I just may have a point here? I mean sh*t dude, im not telling you to do anything with your money, but we've been talking about the market & gold for quite some time now and Gold continues to show strength though people call it a bubble, and what I call a bubble in the markets continue to show that the bubble is popping, though everyone says that im wrong.

Could we review this and maybe come to the conclusion that though gold has no dividends its surely kicking the a$$ of dividend stocks or the market itself?

Edited by villain_the_foe
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Which currency ?

I also have a question to Bit's statement. If this currency collapses and we go to another currency (which I believe that to be absolutely right), wouldnt that mean that the USD lost its value? Wouldnt you lose your savings if your savings were denominated in USD's?

He makes it seem like its simply a smooooooth transition from one currency to the next. In between the currency change how do you protect your wealth? He makes it seem like Gold wouldnt be worth anything with the new currency or something. That currency would still have a represented price on gold wouldnt it?

This is what I mean. even outside what the next currency is, how do you protect your assets prior to that transfer? Do you put it in the currency thats collapsing? Of course not. This is where gold comes in as the ultimate international money. No matter where you are in the world, during a particular time in the world, Gold, Silver and food hold value, the most important being food, the most used for circulation being the metals.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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Thats a problem with all commodity acquisitions. Infact there is some overhead to acquisition and storage!

Question is do you want dividend's in a devaluating currency where the underlying asset is propped up by the largesse of the FED and no guarantees it can substain its value in the future

OR

an asset which at the end of the day is the only true reflection of wealth and hence will continue to appreciate while the fiat currencies are debased or may become worthless.

P.S: Venezuela just nationalized its gold industry today. The ripple effects of this will be felt in paper markets as well as physical ones!

I missed this post earlier today. You certainly understand. Great post and great info. I heard about Venezuela yesterday afternoon. Chavez isnt stupid. He's not going to allow Venezuelan gold to hit the markets at these prices because he understands exactly what you just mentioned above, on top of the fact that he's been highly supported by the people of Venezuela so I doubt he'll see a major backlash by the people. He's keeping the wealth in the country. Nationalization of Gold/Silver mines in the future could very well go global which will put a tight squeeze on the physical market like you said and we're going to see prices this decade that will be bonkers.

This is VERY bullish for gold. However, this is also why I wont hedge myself in Gold/Silver mining shares like that. You mess around and wake up in the morning to hear that Gold hit an all time high but the mine(s) that you were positioned in just got nationalized and you position was mostly liquidated....especially if you're investing in mines outside of the US. I'd be one pissed off dude lol. The potential for profit is ridiculous in the mining shares because they havent been keeping up with the physical price (though that will eventually change), but is the risk worth it when nationalization is a high possibility and you have to pick the right one and know when to get out? And even if you do get out do you want debased currency in return?

IMO, the safest way is to simply go with the "no third party risk" and stick to physical.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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I missed this post earlier today. You certainly understand. Great post and great info. I heard about Venezuela yesterday afternoon. Chavez isnt stupid. He's not going to allow Venezuelan gold to hit the markets at these prices because he understands exactly what you just mentioned above, on top of the fact that he's been highly supported by the people of Venezuela so I doubt he'll see a major backlash by the people. He's keeping the wealth in the country. Nationalization of Gold/Silver mines will go global which will put a tight squeeze on the physical market like you said and we're going to see prices this decade that will be bonkers.

This is VERY bullish for gold. However, this is also why I wont hedge myself in Gold/Silver mining shares like that. You mess around and wake up in the morning to hear that Gold hit an all time high but the mine(s) that you were positioned in just got nationalized and you position was mostly liquidated....especially if you're investing in mines outside of the US. I'd be one pissed off dude lol. The potential for profit is ridiculous in the mining shares because they havent been keeping up with the physical price (though that will eventually change), but is the risk worth it when nationalization is a high possibility?

IMO, the safest way is to simply go with the "no third party risk" and stick to physical.

Well said. Mining is another ball game. Its a lot better to be in the physical despite the overheads!

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the market was actually up and down yesterday it was hovering around the 11,000 mark and closed under it. It will go over it at some point.

if someone was trading gold for oil, how would they know how much oil is worth how much gold, they would convert it to dollars.

when I say gold is traded in dollars I mean the commodity pits. Oil is the same way.

when I say another currency, I don't know what that is. It might not exist right now. Im talking big picture, 1000 years from now maybe. Gold is great it's a precious metal that will always have some value. It's just not as useful as a dollar.

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the market was actually up and down yesterday it was hovering around the 11,000 mark and closed under it. It will go over it at some point.

if someone was trading gold for oil, how would they know how much oil is worth how much gold, they would convert it to dollars.

when I say gold is traded in dollars I mean the commodity pits. Oil is the same way.

when I say another currency, I don't know what that is. It might not exist right now. Im talking big picture, 1000 years from now maybe. Gold is great it's a precious metal that will always have some value. It's just not as useful as a dollar.

So you think that the USD could last for 1000 years?

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So you think that the USD could last for 1000 years?

You really think you'll be around in that time for it to matter?

The USD will last at least another 50 years. We'll be dead around then so who cares what happens after. Can't take anything to the grave with you.

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You really think you'll be around in that time for it to matter?

The USD will last at least another 50 years. We'll be dead around then so who cares what happens after. Can't take anything to the grave with you.

The question was directed to bit because I wasnt sure if he actually meant 1000 years or if it was a typo by him. But to respond to your question, No...it doesnt matter, but I did want to know if he thought that the USD would be around for 1000 years though there's never been a fiat currency thats been around for 1/10th that time.

As for your 50 years scenario, I think the USD (in its current form) will be gone in the next 10 given world events, which is why I buy metals.

My bad if thats a kook response. Id rather u just check out what im looking at though. Maybe we can do more justice sharing info than :cat:

I mean think about it. If you're right than Im just a lone kook and everything is fine, but if im right everyone may want to take this time to protect their financial assets now while they still can.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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The question was directed to bit because I wasnt sure if he actually meant 1000 years or if it was a typo by him. But to respond to your question, No...it doesnt matter, but I did want to know if he thought that the USD would be around for 1000 years though there's never been a fiat currency thats been around for 1/10th that time.

As for your 50 years scenario, I think the USD (in its current form) will be gone in the next 10 given world events, which is why I buy metals.

My bad if thats a kook response. Id rather u just check out what im looking at though. Maybe we can do more justice sharing info than :cat:

I mean think about it. If you're right than Im just a lone kook and everything is fine, but if im right everyone may want to take this time to protect their financial assets now while they still can.

I never once attacked you until you said I was arrogant and uneducated. I had always been civil before you resorted to that, and in fact have frequently been on your side even if I disagreed philosophically. It's all on you.

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I never once attacked you until you said I was arrogant and uneducated. I had always been civil before you resorted to that, and in fact have frequently been on your side even if I disagreed philosophically. It's all on you.

Look at the statement yourself.

The day our currency becomes worthless is the day gold officially becomes worthless as well.

The arrogance behind your statement is in plain view here....and its an uneducated statement because paper currencies have never made an asset with "intrinsic" value worthless. its always been the other way around. how can a fiat currency crumbling make an actual physical asset worthless? Just by definition of "fiat" and "intrinsic value" that cant be true. Its never happened and it cant because the value of Gold isnt in the fiat currency, its in the element itself (dont get defensive here. just hear me out).

The comment wasnt an attack, it was rather civil, though straight forward. I didnt call "you" a name, (kook) but rather I criticized your statement specifically. There's a difference between criticizing ones statement specifically and judging ones character & competence overall Serp. Go to page six and read my comment, you'll see that the comment was not updated in days so you know that I didnt change it. I specifically gave my view on the "statement", not you personally. I never said that YOU were arrogant and uneducated one time bro. Thats unfortunately the way you took it, which I have no control over. C'mon Serp, I simply called a spade a spade when it came to that statement.

I even asked you to show me a time where a "fiat currency" made gold worthless in the past. You know like I know that you will not be able to find such a time in history. I also asked you (given the case) what makes our fiat currency different than any other fiat currency in history. England had an international currency before WWI (and before the US) and when that crumbled did gold become worthless? No. Was Gold still considered money then? Yes. Did the world (including England) recognize gold as money whether or not the international currency crumbled? Yes.

So to conclude, my intent wasnt to be non-civil, I was simply stating what I saw. You're not stupid bro, and I never once played you for being stupid or a "kook", but for you to make such a statement and make it "official" gives the USD, a fiat currency, precedence over actual wealth. How is that not being arrogant when you say "officially worthless"? What authority are you referring to that would make it official, because I dont know of one. How is it not an uneducated statement when on top of you saying "officially worthless" its not even true simply by the definition of both instruments....never mind the historical factor. I can be illiterate in C++ computer programing but that doesnt make me uneducated overall. I can be uneducated in a particular area until I take the time to become informed. Same thing with this topic. Not once did I say that you were dumb. What I did was criticize your statement and supported it with facts.

My bad that the comment rubbed you the wrong way, but I'd rather clarify the comment for what it was then for me to apolgize for calling you arrogant and uneducated when thats not what I did. You took offense to my statement, but it wasnt a personal attack on you if you read what I said. Calling me a kook (though trust me, you're not the first) doesnt change the fact that historically and currently I've been correct. Also, calling me an uneducated kook is calling "ME" an uneducated kook. You're making an attack on my character and competence directly....something that hopefully now you can see that I didnt do to you. Thats water under the bridge though. I didnt take it personally. We're grown men here.

Thats why I said I'd rather not :cat: and for us to simply look at what each of us is saying. You got alittle hot over my statement and didnt take it the way I gave it. This is why in my following statement I asked you was I getting under your skin and said after "no hard feelings, im just messin with you" while trying to make lite of the conversation. However, it seems like you still felt some kinda way about it since I continued to feel a contentious vibe from your comments afterward.

Im straight forward and it can be abrasive at times. I send P.M.s to Max once every couple of months because I said something that though may hold water kinda came off as being an a$$. Well, its hard to show emotion through the net when you cant hear one's tone, but what I can say is that I didnt mean for you to take the comment the way you did and for that I will apologize, but I dont take back my statement because in respect to how I meant it, history and definitions support my response.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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There have been no fewer than six "experts" on CNBC in the last hour basically saying the same thing...

"There are lots of bargains out there, but I'm not buying just yet."

In six months, if the market is higher, they'll be saying "I told you six months ago there were lots of bargains out there."

If it's lower, they'll be saying "I told you six months ago I wasn't buying just yet."

I'll go on record. There are lots of bargains out there. Buy now.

agree..even if mkt slides a bit further, if u look down road a bit, IBM is a nobrainer..It will be at 180ish again in 2012 sometime and its low 160s now..

I got out of all stocks mid July before collapse, and I am thinkin of going back in for a small drink with IBM now

Edited by SouthernJet
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agree..even if mkt slides a bit further, if u look down road a bit, IBM is a nobrainer..It will be at 180ish again in 2012 sometime and its low 160s now..

I got out of all stocks mid July before collapse, and I am thinkin of going back in for a small drink with IBM now

Market was up today.

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3% its way over 11000

villan i enjoy this gold vs everything else convo

i kinda like backing 'everything else' it seems like a winner

So he has gold and you have every other investment known to man? Real estate, stocks, etc???

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3% its way over 11000

villan i enjoy this gold vs everything else convo

i kinda like backing 'everything else' it seems like a winner

I enjoy the convo as well Bit.

We'll see how it plays out.

And yes, the market is up today. Lets see if it can get back to its year 2000 levels. lol.

Edited by villain_the_foe
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