JI/JN Border War Mafia Game Thread

[Lefty Ruggerio]

I agree completely on the doc. In prior games with similar situations, the doc couldn't block Sylar's conversion ability nor the zombie team's bite. No reason to think this would be any different. As far as a player with a different role that can block conversions or maybe unconvert a player, that seems like a possibility.

If that's the case, then there has to be other town power roles out there. We could assume that the Cult Leader can't convert scum (for the reason that the Cult Leader would then know who all the scum were), so the town would need some form of protection besides the vig. As such, they're best to remain underground.

[Doggin94it]

Vote Count

Tony Montana (1) - Henry Hill

Sonny LoSpecchio (3) - Frank Costello, Lefty Ruggerio, Ace Rothstein

Marcellus Wallace (1) - Vito Corleone

Henry Hill (1) - Tommy DeVito

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch

[Henry Hill]

Ok, my best guess is that cult leader can convert any non-roled player, ie, no cop, doc, scum, vig.

Now, for Doggin

1. Is a player alerted when he is converted to cult?

2. If so, is that player aware who the cult leader is?

[Doggin94it]

Ok, my best guess is that cult leader can convert any non-roled player, ie, no cop, doc, scum, vig.

Now, for Doggin

1. Is a player alerted when he is converted to cult?

2. If so, is that player aware who the cult leader is?

Yes and PAFO.

[Joe Cabot]

So the cult leader actually wouldn't have any extra incentive to try to convert a roled player?

My understanding of the cult is that they aren't trying to so much get power roles and dominate the game that way, but take over in terms of sheer numbers.

Obviously I can't state for sure, as I'm not Doggin. But thats my understanding of it all

[Fredo Corleone]

I also believe that the doctor can't protect himself against the cult so he should not reveal unless he's near lynch. Why are we even discussing this?

I have to agree with Mr. Costello on this one... The Doc needs to stay hidden and protect himself. This game like the Mafia vs cops game has two separate threats to the town. That game had two different precincts, this one has the scum and the cult. Last thing we need is to lose another power role. So I hope the Doc does the right thing and stays hidden and self protects for now.

I wonder if the other power role people are talking about has a watch or follow type function. That might explain the accuracy of the first nights kill. I'm still having a hard time writing that off as chance.

[Joe Cabot]

I need to do some yardwork for a bit. I'll be back when I'm done

[Marcellus Wallace]

This Joe Cabot and Lefty thing is interesting. I don't understand why they are so hostile so quickly.. Makes me think its a ploy, but i can't believe that it's possible this early..

Miscalculation imo. I'm having a hard time keeping track of who is who to begin with, I don't know why they'd ever bring themselves to the forfront on day 1.

This setup screams for slowplaying/laidback style while you watch townies pick one another off.

Who knows though I guess...

lol.. good call.. probably spot on..

unvote Lefty

Since he's at L-3 and most people haven't said a peep yet...

I don't think I agree with this, there's just as many scum that slink away quietly hoping the ADD townies will get distracted and move onto the next shiny object..

I stopped trying to figure it out after the intial amusement factor wore off..

I think the only people who will really care about who is who are scum and cult members trying to figure out who to kill/convert. Maybe town power roles as well, but they obviously shouldn't be expressing these ideas..

With that said

unvote

vote Carilito's way

What do you need to be researching whose who for?

Because if I'm scum, I want to know who to take out based on what I perceive their abilities to be, whether positive or negative..

If I'm a regular old townie, why would I care whose who? Maybe I'm curious, but you alluded to doing research and keeping notes - seems to me like somebody whose motivated to find out whose who..

The posts are weird though..

He posts at 11:43, 11:50 and then 10 minutes later at 12:00, he's already logged in as bleedin and forgot to log back out? Maybe he's using 2 browsers or something, but maybe bleedin's alias is one that hasn't commented in awhile (which would seem to be the more likely timing in regards to screwing up)

I don't think that's Jets Babe and I suspect I will be proven right over the next few days..

As to the rest of this, I don't know what Rooney's alignment, but I've seen scum and roleless townies both go down without swinging, so I don't think it's a tell..

The bottom line for me is that he was gone for 2 complete days, got a little bit of heat and responded within an hour. That's someone to me that's been monitoring the thread and not posting. Considering he posted how excited he was to play with these alts, it doesn't add up and it's the best I've got to go on right now..

Seeing as how I'd label both Lefty and Joe's play as being largely emotional, the liklihood of them taking someone out they were fighting with is increased imo..

Alright, I have gone back and reread this thread trying to figure out why the scum assumingly chose Nicky and why Nicky assumingly chose Michael. That was unsuccessful, there was just nothing to go on.

However, one thing that stood out to me and it was a comment Frank made, the first in the list that I have posted above. As you see, he pointed out the possibility of a ploy super early and that ploy actually panned out after the first night, now we are all talking about it...foreshadowing? or just a coincidence...either way, I dont like it.

That made me start looking at the rest of his posts and I started to notice some contradictions. For example, on one hand, he thinks that anyone that is trying to figure out alts and how they pertain to their character is scum or cult, yet on the other he is making votes for players based of that fact.

For example, he unvoted Lefty because Al pointed out that Lefty could possibly be JMJ. Then he votes Carlito for trying to figure out the game based of the alts but then proceeds to get into several conversations about figuring out the alts even though he says, "What do you need to be researching whose who for?". I am assuming the What was meant to be a Why?

There was also a time where he stated that it was pointless to vote for inactives after the weekend on the first day, but here he is today starting a train based of inactives on Monday right after the weekend. Which I am fine with, but why say that early on and then do the opposite today....very similar to what he was doing with figuring out alts.

Look, I dont really have anything to go on, but the fact that you have had several IMO contradictions, I am going this route. I really was certain you were town, but these contradictions raised an eye and IMO this needs to be addressed.

Does anyone else see where I am going or have I read into this incorrectly?

Vote: Frank Costello

[Carlito Brigante]

The Cultists typically know who each other are, however, I have played games where they can't communicate outside of the thread, and games where they can.

Unconverts can happen, but typically don't. I was unconverted in a game once where the mod never told me to shut my trap, and I ratted out my entire mafia team, winning the game for the innocents. Granted, it was in end-game anyways, but it was a surefire win for the mafia before that.

[Frank Costello]

So the cult leader actually wouldn't have any extra incentive to try to convert a roled player?

I don't know that I agree with that. If a doc is converted, he may lose his doc abilities, but it would give the cult information and leave a void of a role they can claim for themselves if push comes to shove..

[Vito Corleone]

My understanding of the cult is that they aren't trying to so much get power roles and dominate the game that way, but take over in terms of sheer numbers.

With that in mind, I also agree that it's unlikely that there's a way for a player to be unconverted. But I wouldn't dismiss the idea of them being able to convert power roles, and wanting to convert power roles.

I'd also guess that they can communicate, or that at the very least the cult leader can talk to them individually. Without NK powers, how else would they be able to take over the game without manipulating lynches?

I'm not sure what I think about Frank's percentages theory, either. Only being able to convert 25-50% of the available players would put the cult leader at a severe disadvantage. Or is he supposed to be at a disadvantage, like the uphill battle a SK faces to begin a game?

[Marcellus Wallace]

With that in mind, I also agree that it's unlikely that there's a way for a player to be unconverted. But I wouldn't dismiss the idea of them being able to convert power roles, and wanting to convert power roles.

I'd also guess that they can communicate, or that at the very least the cult leader can talk to them individually. Without NK powers, how else would they be able to take over the game without manipulating lynches?

I'm not sure what I think about Frank's percentages theory, either. Only being able to convert 25-50% of the available players would put the cult leader at a severe disadvantage. Or is he supposed to be at a disadvantage, like the uphill battle a SK faces to begin a game?

Interesting. Has anyone ever scene a situation where the cult leader takes on the powers of those he recruits?

[Vito Corleone]

Interesting. Has anyone ever scene a situation where the cult leader takes on the powers of those he recruits?

Whoa! I'm not suggesting that.

I am suggesting that the cult leader might want to convert the doc so that he can have the doc protect him at night. Or convert the vig so he can have him shoot in a direction more desirable to him... that sort of thing.

[Frank Costello]

Alright, I have gone back and reread this thread trying to figure out why the scum assumingly chose Nicky and why Nicky assumingly chose Michael. That was unsuccessful, there was just nothing to go on.

However, one thing that stood out to me and it was a comment Frank made, the first in the list that I have posted above. As you see, he pointed out the possibility of a ploy super early and that ploy actually panned out after the first night, now we are all talking about it...foreshadowing? or just a coincidence...either way, I dont like it.

That made me start looking at the rest of his posts and I started to notice some contradictions. For example, on one hand, he thinks that anyone that is trying to figure out alts and how they pertain to their character is scum or cult, yet on the other he is making votes for players based of that fact.

For example, he unvoted Lefty because Al pointed out that Lefty could possibly be JMJ. Then he votes Carlito for trying to figure out the game based of the alts but then proceeds to get into several conversations about figuring out the alts even though he says, "What do you need to be researching whose who for?". I am assuming the What was meant to be a Why?

There was also a time where he stated that it was pointless to vote for inactives after the weekend on the first day, but here he is today starting a train based of inactives on Monday right after the weekend. Which I am fine with, but why say that early on and then do the opposite today....very similar to what he was doing with figuring out alts.

Look, I dont really have anything to go on, but the fact that you have had several IMO contradictions, I am going this route. I really was certain you were town, but these contradictions raised an eye and IMO this needs to be addressed.

Does anyone else see where I am going or have I read into this incorrectly?

Vote: Frank Costello

Heh.. couple of points

1) WHat i was curious about was where Carlito 1.0 made it seem like he was keeping notes and actively pursuing the man behind the alt, as in a little to gung ho to be after this information. So it wasn't neccesarily that he was doing, it was the ferver in which he approached it. Further, it was simply good enough for an early day 1 vote, seeing as how I ended up unvoting, I wasn't making a strong case..

2) In regards to the inactive point, weekend 1 was mothers day and everybody was "inactive". Now that we are 10 days in, we have a better idea who is really inactive. We also happen to be completely directionless right now..

[Henry Hill]

Interesting. Has anyone ever scene a situation where the cult leader takes on the powers of those he recruits?

Seems to powerful again. Cult leader could grab the doc, then protect himself and continue to recruit only needing to aviod his lynch to assure victory.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Heh.. couple of points

1) WHat i was curious about was where Carlito 1.0 made it seem like he was keeping notes and actively pursuing the man behind the alt, as in a little to gung ho to be after this information. So it wasn't neccesarily that he was doing, it was the ferver in which he approached it. Further, it was simply good enough for an early day 1 vote, seeing as how I ended up unvoting, I wasn't making a strong case..

2) In regards to the inactive point, weekend 1 was mothers day and everybody was "inactive". Now that we are 10 days in, we have a better idea who is really inactive. We also happen to be completely directionless right now..

Fair enough with point 2...that didnt really bother me...just pointing out that it took place.

Point 1, I am still having a problem with...it wasnt just with Carlito. You were doing it before then and you kept doing it after you called him out. You clearly contradict yourself and your explination only talks about your interaction with Carlito...not the overall point I was making that you were saying one thing and doing the other.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Seems to powerful again. Cult leader could grab the doc, then protect himself and continue to recruit only needing to aviod his lynch to assure victory.

Just wondering, I have never seen the Cult set up before.

Thanks,

[Marcellus Wallace]

With that in mind, I also agree that it's unlikely that there's a way for a player to be unconverted. But I wouldn't dismiss the idea of them being able to convert power roles, and wanting to convert power roles.

I'd also guess that they can communicate, or that at the very least the cult leader can talk to them individually. Without NK powers, how else would they be able to take over the game without manipulating lynches?

I'm not sure what I think about Frank's percentages theory, either. Only being able to convert 25-50% of the available players would put the cult leader at a severe disadvantage. Or is he supposed to be at a disadvantage, like the uphill battle a SK faces to begin a game?

I would think a likely scenario could be that some players could have a protection against getting converted. It could possibly a one time thing like the bullet-proof vest like in the game CTM modded. Don't think it would be 50-75% of the players in the game like Frank suggested but I think a few could have them.

[Doggin94it]

Vote Count

Tony Montana (1) - Henry Hill

Sonny LoSpecchio (3) - Frank Costello, Lefty Ruggerio, Ace Rothstein

Marcellus Wallace (1) - Vito Corleone

Henry Hill (1) - Tommy DeVito

Frank Costello (1) - Jimmy Conway

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch

[Ace Rothstein]

I'm working again tonight guys (and currently I'm scheduled to work every night until June) so I'm off for the night. I don't have internet access at work so I'll try to get on when I get home in the morning but if not I'll be around for much of the afternoon.

[Joe Cabot]

The equivalent of a bullet-proof vest would make sense MW.

But on to business...those who haven't voted, please do so or at least throw your thoughts out there. I dont mind taking it a bit slow, but there are too many people who haven't thrown any accusations out there on this day.

[Frank Costello]

Fair enough with point 2...that didnt really bother me...just pointing out that it took place.

Point 1, I am still having a problem with...it wasnt just with Carlito. You were doing it before then and you kept doing it after you called him out. You clearly contradict yourself and your explination only talks about your interaction with Carlito...not the overall point I was making that you were saying one thing and doing the other.

The point I was making was about Carlito researching it and keeping notes, imo there's a difference between noticing tendencies and actively trying to figure out whose who..

one seems active the other reactive..

[Fredo Corleone]

Well, that sucked.

Let me parrot everyone else in saying that is pretty clear that Nicky whacked Mikey and then got NK'd himself.

All I know is that I'm exhausted from a long day and can't think straight. Tomorrow is another day like today, and then I'm free to hang out and post to my little heart's content.

The Mafia has us thinking of all kinds of crazy scenarios and I'm sure they're all laughing at us.

I'm with you on both of these points. I don't believe that any of the scum are noobs. They have us all guessing, and that's going to end up hurting us in the long run.

This has the feel of scum trying to start another train and having the town do their dirty work.

Both Carlito and Al, within seconds of each other, made the killvote on Rooney. How is it that neither of them have been questioned?

I had a chance to go and look back so I checked out a few players. Joe and Henry obviously stick out but again, the wifom plays into this argument and Im not sure I know what glass of wine to drink.

Looking back at Sonny I noticed that he has done very little in this game. Alot of agreeing with other people and alot of making excuses of why he doesn't have time to contribute. Plus the comment about scum trying to start another train after a single vote is cummy to me. vote:sonny

[Marcellus Wallace]

The point I was making was about Carlito researching it and keeping notes, imo there's a difference between noticing tendencies and actively trying to figure out whose who..

one seems active the other reactive..

Yes, but you let it dictate your decision and your logic on multiple occasions while criticizing one option of logic.

And also, maybe its just irony, but the fact that you said Joe and Lefty could be a ploy a comment is intriguing...were you part of the mafia team that is now playing it against the town. That was way early to see it and too coincidental that it panned out to be exactly after the evening.

[Vito Corleone]

*Unofficial* Vote Count

Tony Montana (1) - Henry Hill

Sonny LoSpecchio (4) - Frank Costello, Lefty Ruggerio, Ace Rothstein, Fredo Corleone

Marcellus Wallace (1) - Vito Corleone

Henry Hill (1) - Tommy DeVito

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch

Not Voting:

Tony Soprano

Al Capone

Joe Cabot

Tony Montana

Marcellus Wallace

Jimmy Conway

Virgil Sollozo

Sonny LoSpecchio

Carlito Brigante

Let's get with it, guys. We're looking at a deadline of 1PM on Wednesday, and not even half the field has cast a vote. We need to get everyone's opinion on the table. I'm sure we all want to avoid a random lynch!

[Joe Cabot]

I voted for Sonny on day one for a lot of the things that came up here today. I only even unvoted at the time when I knew that vote wasn't going anywhere. I still agree with those thoughts and the fact that nothing has really changed in the past many days / one game day, I have no problem going with that decision. He's still a number of votes away from lynch even with mine, so I have no problem putting some pressure and getting some real insight out of him. If we get an acceptable response, I have no problem switching my vote.

Vote: Sonny

BTW, let me also say I like the case Jimmy has brought against Frank. I think it seems pretty legit and is another direction I considered taking, but the fact that I feel same way about this case on Sonny since I voted him yesterday and nothing has been done to change that at all, makes me go in this direction.

[Joe Cabot]

*Unofficial* Vote Count

Tony Montana (1) - Henry Hill

Sonny LoSpecchio (4) - Frank Costello, Lefty Ruggerio, Ace Rothstein, Fredo Corleone

Marcellus Wallace (1) - Vito Corleone

Henry Hill (1) - Tommy DeVito

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch

Not Voting:

Tony Soprano

Al Capone

Joe Cabot

Tony Montana

Marcellus Wallace

Jimmy Conway

Virgil Sollozo

Sonny LoSpecchio

Carlito Brigante

Let's get with it, guys. We're looking at a deadline of 1PM on Wednesday, and not even half the field has cast a vote. We need to get everyone's opinion on the table. I'm sure we all want to avoid a random lynch!

You missed Jimmy's vote on Frank.

[Vito Corleone]

You missed Jimmy's vote on Frank.

So I did...

*Unofficial* Vote Count

Tony Montana (1) - Henry Hill

Sonny LoSpecchio (5) - Frank Costello, Lefty Ruggerio, Ace Rothstein, Fredo Corleone, Joe Cabot

Marcellus Wallace (1) - Vito Corleone

Henry Hill (1) - Tommy DeVito

Frank Costello (1) - Jimmy Conway

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch

Not Voting:

Tony Soprano

Al Capone

Tony Montana

Marcellus Wallace

Virgil Sollozo

Sonny LoSpecchio

Carlito Brigante

That's a little better.

[Fredo Corleone]

I voted for Sonny on day one for a lot of the things that came up here today. I only even unvoted at the time when I knew that vote wasn't going anywhere. I still agree with those thoughts and the fact that nothing has really changed in the past many days / one game day, I have no problem going with that decision. He's still a number of votes away from lynch even with mine, so I have no problem putting some pressure and getting some real insight out of him. If we get an acceptable response, I have no problem switching my vote.

Vote: Sonny

BTW, let me also say I like the case Jimmy has brought against Frank. I think it seems pretty legit and is another direction I considered taking, but the fact that I feel same way about this case on Sonny since I voted him yesterday and nothing has been done to change that at all, makes me go in this direction.

I kinda feel the same way. I went with Sonny because it's real hard to see how he is trying to help figure things out or is he doing the minimum to just skate along. Definately seems to be the later.

[Fredo Corleone]

You missed Jimmy's vote on Frank.

Joe take it easy on the Don. He's still mourning the loss of his son. Some respect, ok?

[Joe Cabot]

I admit the case on Sonny makes sense, but I've got to ask, how does Tony miss heat for essentially the exact same thing? Sure, he's been around a lot...but we've gotten a lot of "sorry I haven't been here, I'll be more active now" posts from Tony, only to have him disappear again.

FOS: Sonny for now, if I can't get a train going on Henry I'll jump over ONLY to avoid a random lynch.

[Frank Costello]

Yes, but you let it dictate your decision and your logic on multiple occasions while criticizing one option of logic.

No, again, it wasn't acting on the information, it was that gathering the information was one of his stated goals..

My point was that why is someone investing so much energy in finding out who is who, to me, the only reason I would do that is if I was in the cult or scum and wanted to know which player I should take my night action against..

That doesn't mean that if someone had a hissy fit and claimed cop, I wouldn't react and think it's just Vic being Vic..

And also, maybe its just irony, but the fact that you said Joe and Lefty could be a ploy a comment is intriguing...were you part of the mafia team that is now playing it against the town. That was way early to see it and too coincidental that it panned out to be exactly after the evening.

How did Joe and lefty's early day 1 war pan out to be a gambit?

We don't have any clue as to their alignment????

[Al Capone]

Sorry that i've been away all day. early on the week is usually bad for me.

This posting style is quite similar to a certain poster from JI.

Vote:Lefty

1) Part of an early wagon with an odd reason to place a vote.

His ass hurts.

Lefty has gotten awfully defensive and is hurling insults like they're confetti. Is it part of his character, or is he just a douche?

He then echos what other players have mentioned, trying to fuel a fire on, and in my opinion it looks like someone is a bit anxious to get to the first night.

This has the feel of scum trying to start another train and having the town do their dirty work.

Both Carlito and Al, within seconds of each other, made the killvote on Rooney. How is it that neither of them have been questioned?

I'll have to respond to this post with one of the few substance posts he's added.

Deflection Alert!!!

Seriously, he's not mounting a serious defense on what he's done so far this game because it is indefensible. He has contributed very little substance, and when he has, it's just been echoing what others have said.

Vote: Sonny

[Vito Corleone]

I admit the case on Sonny makes sense, but I've got to ask, how does Tony miss heat for essentially the exact same thing? Sure, he's been around a lot...but we've gotten a lot of "sorry I haven't been here, I'll be more active now" posts from Tony, only to have him disappear again.

FOS: Sonny for now, if I can't get a train going on Henry I'll jump over ONLY to avoid a random lynch.

You're right.

Hello all- I've got some catching up to do here as it was a busy weekend for me. Should be back in about 20-30 min.

That 20-30 minutes is now about 11 hours ago. I think overall he's contributed more than Marcellus or Sonny, but it's worth noting.

[Marcellus Wallace]

No, again, it wasn't acting on the information, it was that gathering the information was one of his stated goals..

My point was that why is someone investing so much energy in finding out who is who, to me, the only reason I would do that is if I was in the cult or scum and wanted to know which player I should take my night action against..

That doesn't mean that if someone had a hissy fit and claimed cop, I wouldn't react and think it's just Vic being Vic.

Yeah, but you unvoted Lefty when Al said he was probably JMJ. It wasnt just your vote toward Carlito, is was everything before and after, you took place in numerous conversations about who was who.

How did Joe and lefty's early day 1 war pan out to be a gambit?

We don't have any clue as to their alignment????

Technically not, but everyone is using wifom logic as reason not to vote for either of the two. It has been a topic covered at length since the NK's.