JI/JN Border War Mafia Game Thread

[Ace Rothstein]

Does anyone have a reason to believe this was anything other than Michael being taken out by Nicky and Nicky getting taken out by scum? Or are we just suggesting theories based on past games and the probability of Doggin's game being interesting? I'm not complaining about suggesting possible theories but I don't want us to start moving in a baseless direction.

Of course if there hypothetically is anyone who could back up one of those ideas they're probably not gonna be revealing said information...

[Joe Cabot]

Unless, Nicky was the target of conversion by the Cult leader and rather than be converted he shot himself.

Don't know if that's possible. But if Nicky was PM that he was being converted before he submitted his night action he may have submitted a kill on himself.

But if there's a Mafia, 2 Cult Members now, and SK, then that is bad.

It's my understanding that players are not PM'd the consequences of night actions until the night phase is over, or right before the mod posts the end of the night phase scene.

[Henry Hill]

Henry- I'm not going to get into to it with you. Believe what you want. How bout this, rather then be defensive for what is now the second time, why don't you try and tell me what you think we should do here?

Because I dont' have any better ideas outside of who Nicky interacted with. I don't got no FOS, no vote, nothing out on no one. My ears are open.

What we should do, is take you out. I saw this strategy coming a mile away, I simply thought it would take you more than a page to start it.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

It's my understanding that players are not PM'd the consequences of night actions until the night phase is over, or right before the mod posts the end of the night phase scene.

Yes. Another odd suggestion. Lefty has not played this game before, or wishes to appear so.

[Jimmy Conway]

What we should do, is take you out. I saw this strategy coming a mile away, I simply thought it would take you more than a page to start it.

Well you're a great help to the town. Thanks.

Ace- Maybe you're right with wasting time on hypothetical situations.

[Joe Cabot]

Good morning, everyone. A quick look around the boards reveals a few missing faces.

DanX (Michael Corleone), the town Finder, is dead.

124 (Nicky Santoro) the town Vigilante, is dead

Day 2 has begun. With 16 players alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch

Nothing to even distinguish between the two separate deaths? Come on.

[Doggin94it]

Nothing to even distinguish between the two separate deaths? Come on.

Sorry, but I hate giving away game information in death scenes.

[Henry Hill]

Well you're a great help to the town. Thanks.

Ace- Maybe you're right with wasting time on hypothetical situations.

I am, in fact.

Sure, Nicky wasn't scum, but he obviously took the attitude that he could kill anyone he wanted at night and so the day lynch didn't matter as much. He killed the Cop. We'd have been better of lynching him.

The strategy you're employing is so simple. You kill Nicky, then *subtily* suggest that we *look into* who was having a back and forth with him. Which was obviously me. Problem is, you came in the condom, Montana, blew your load way too fast with 4 posts on one page.

So, either that's the strategy, or I'm scum, and with 9 votes on an innocent player, I decided to make a case against another innocent player, then rather than killing any random player, in hopes of hitting the cult leader, a greater threat to me than the innocents, I go after the one player who can be tied to me. Yeah, that seems likely.

[Joe Cabot]

I agree that its probably not in our best interest to start creating a lot of hypothetical situations for this death. Most likely scenario was scum killed Nicky and Nicky killed Michael. I can't imagine there being a serial killer in this game on top of a scum team and a recruiting cult. Just seems way too unbalanced. The only other possibility is if the cult has a NK ability, but in that case it would mean our vig either (A) didn't NK, ( was blocked or © targetted a doc-protected player. Its possible, but I'm guessing its the most logical choice of vig/scum kills.

Doggin, does the cult have a NK ability?

[Jimmy Conway]

I am, in fact.

Sure, Nicky wasn't scum, but he obviously took the attitude that he could kill anyone he wanted at night and so the day lynch didn't matter as much. He killed the Cop. We'd have been better of lynching him.

The strategy you're employing is so simple. You kill Nicky, then *subtily* suggest that we *look into* who was having a back and forth with him. Which was obviously me. Problem is, you came in the condom, Montana, blew your load way too fast with 4 posts on one page.

So, either that's the strategy, or I'm scum, and with 9 votes on an innocent player, I decided to make a case against another innocent player, then rather than killing any random player, in hopes of hitting the cult leader, a greater threat to me than the innocents, I go after the one player who can be tied to me. Yeah, that seems likely.

Henry- the thing about your outburst on me is no different then your outburst on Nicky. You have your little strategy and if I were you I'd do the same thing because it's simple really:

- Go after Nicky, then kill him

- Get ready for the obvious posts the next day questioning you subtly or not

- Immediately claim on the first person you can "I saw this coming this person is clearly scum" and cast a vote on another innocent.

You had an issue with Nicky, now you got one with me. Rather then get away from your self-centered act your not looking at the big picture, like I said previously, as the town where else should we go? And by that I don't mean YOU. But you once again, are full out going on someone. You can have the last word compadre- for now I just think you're an overly emotional player.

[Joe Cabot]

In my experiences, if there is a game oddity, it's going to have to reveal itself on its own. We can chase after the SK idea all we want, but it's not going to get us anywhere without more information anyways. Lets try and focus on what we do have from day 1

[Doggin94it]

I agree that its probably not in our best interest to start creating a lot of hypothetical situations for this death. Most likely scenario was scum killed Nicky and Nicky killed Michael. I can't imagine there being a serial killer in this game on top of a scum team and a recruiting cult. Just seems way too unbalanced. The only other possibility is if the cult has a NK ability, but in that case it would mean our vig either (A) didn't NK, ( was blocked or © targetted a doc-protected player. Its possible, but I'm guessing its the most logical choice of vig/scum kills.

Doggin, does the cult have a NK ability?

PAFO

[Henry Hill]

Henry- the thing about your outburst on me is no different then your outburst on Nicky. You have your little strategy and if I were you I'd do the same thing because it's simple really:

- Go after Nicky, then kill him

- Get ready for the obvious posts the next day questioning you subtly or not

- Immediately claim on the first person you can "I saw this coming this person is clearly scum" and cast a vote on another innocent.

You had an issue with Nicky, now you got one with me. Rather then get away from your self-centered act your not looking at the big picture, like I said previously, as the town where else should we go? And by that I don't mean YOU. But you once again, are full out going on someone. You can have the last word compadre- for now I just think you're an overly emotional player.

Well, if that were my strategy, it would look awful weak if it were just *brought up*. However, you brought it up 4 times in one page.

If the town disagrees, then vote for me. Quickly. It'll be clear that it was a set-up, and you'll go down. That's a trade I'm willing to make. I really don't have any more to say on the subject.

[Joe Cabot]

I agree that its probably not in our best interest to start creating a lot of hypothetical situations for this death. Most likely scenario was scum killed Nicky and Nicky killed Michael. I can't imagine there being a serial killer in this game on top of a scum team and a recruiting cult. Just seems way too unbalanced. The only other possibility is if the cult has a NK ability, but in that case it would mean our vig either (A) didn't NK, ( was blocked or © targetted a doc-protected player. Its possible, but I'm guessing its the most logical choice of vig/scum kills.

Doggin, does the cult have a NK ability?

I really don't understand why you guys are so focused on this. The cult can convert, thus making its numbers stronger. Why would they NK, and keep their number at one, when they can convert and put it to 2, with no other difference other than they're one person stronger?

[Fredo Corleone]

My brother Michael, may he rest in peace.

What a friggin beating. Is it actually possible to start a game off worse? I have to finish up here and then dinner with my old lady. I want to go back and read all of Michaels and Nicky's contributions and will be on to shuffle through this mess at about 10:00 pm.

[Jimmy Conway]

Well, if that were my strategy, it would look awful weak if it were just *brought up*. However, you brought it up 4 times in one page.

If the town disagrees, then vote for me. Quickly. It'll be clear that it was a set-up, and you'll go down. That's a trade I'm willing to make. I really don't have any more to say on the subject.

Henry, I brought it up because I really do think it's the best way to go for the town. Like I said previous already I DO NOT think you are DUMB enough to do the aformentioned. I wasn't pointing the finger with you. Nicky had plenty of posts and not all of them interacted with you compadre, those are the freshest ones. I suggest we look at everything... it could be one post, and we could also find nothing. I'm taking in all possibilities here.

And quite frankly I am NOT willing to make this trade, because if you are innocent like you are implying and it implicates me then the town goes down 2 innocent plus whatever happens during the night. That'd be catastrophic.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

Yes. Another odd suggestion. Lefty has not played this game before, or wishes to appear so.

Not true. I have played this game before.

Also, not all night action results are PM'd at the conclusion of the nightphase. In a previous game the mod sent PMs during the night phase concerning certain night actions, rather than at the end, when it didn't concern a kill. That's how I remember it explained in the postgame recap. Plus, we don't know what limitations or abilities the Vig had or what the Cult leader can and can't do.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

I really don't understand why you guys are so focused on this. The cult can convert, thus making its numbers stronger. Why would they NK, and keep their number at one, when they can convert and put it to 2, with no other difference other than they're one person stronger?

It does lead to a distraction. We can all present different scenarios (as I and others have), but it's probably best to accept for now the obvious occurence until we get more info: Nicky killed Michael & the scum killed Nicky.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Not true. I have played this game before.

Also, not all night action results are PM'd at the conclusion of the nightphase. In a previous game the mod sent PMs during the night phase concerning certain night actions, rather than at the end, when it didn't concern a kill. That's how I remember it explained in the postgame recap. Plus, we don't know what limitations or abilities the Vig had or what the Cult leader can and can't do.

Fair enough. Though it makes little sense for Nicky to commit suicide. Why not play as a cult member.

The other idea you had. Have you played games where dead players could share their night actions?

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Not true. I have played this game before.

Also, not all night action results are PM'd at the conclusion of the nightphase. In a previous game the mod sent PMs during the night phase concerning certain night actions, rather than at the end, when it didn't concern a kill. That's how I remember it explained in the postgame recap. Plus, we don't know what limitations or abilities the Vig had or what the Cult leader can and can't do.

And if Nicky received a PM about cult recruitment, why not kill the cult leader.

It makes most sense that Nicky killed Michael.

[Joe Cabot]

It does lead to a distraction. We can all present different scenarios (as I and others have), but it's probably best to accept for now the obvious occurence until we get more info: Nicky killed Michael & the scum killed Nicky.

Hey, I presented all of them myself. We should keep most all of them in the back of our minds...it's just that this one doesn't make any sense at all. Put yourself in the shoes of the Cult Leader...killing on night 1 makes no sense, IMO.

Regardless--anyone have a voting time line from day one?

[Lefty Ruggerio]

Fair enough. Though it makes little sense for Nicky to commit suicide. Why not play as a cult member.

The other idea you had. Have you played games where dead players could share their night actions?

The death note. The idea that the player had written something before he/she was killed and the note was found on the body. It only works with town power roles.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

And if Nicky received a PM about cult recruitment, why not kill the cult leader.

It makes most sense that Nicky killed Michael.

I agree. That is definately the most likely scenario and one I believed happened.

I was going along the lines of Montana's "outside the box" belief that there could be an SK. If the most likely event didn't happen, what are the other possibilities?

[Virgil Sollozzo]

The death note. The idea that the player had written something before he/she was killed and the note was found on the body. It only works with town power roles.

Interesting. Thank you.

[Jimmy Conway]

I agree. That is definately the most likely scenario and one I believed happened.

I was going along the lines of Montana's "outside the box" belief that there could be an SK. If the most likely event didn't happen, what are the other possibilities?

Right now I think the SK thing can be shelved and we'll see what happens during the next night phase, if we see two more kills... well then we know that we have an SK on our hands. Tommy mentioned looking into some voting history as well from day 1, not a bad idea to look there.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

Hey, I presented all of them myself. We should keep most all of them in the back of our minds...it's just that this one doesn't make any sense at all. Put yourself in the shoes of the Cult Leader...killing on night 1 makes no sense, IMO.

Regardless--anyone have a voting time line from day one?

As I have read the descriptions, Cult leaders can't kill. If anything, I've read that a Cult leader dies if he/she tries to recruit mafia. It makes no sense for the role that he can kill. He wants to expand his ranks.

[Al Capone]

This does not bode well for the town at all. If someone is culted, they would show up as culted in the death scene. At least that's how I've seen it done before. I also doubt a serial killer because it would make this game antitown. Too unbalanced. For god's sake people vigs can no shoot too I believe. I know you guys get excited to get a night action but early on you are more likely to hit town than mafia. He should of held his shot for a day imo. Not that it matters now.

[Joe Cabot]

I really don't understand why you guys are so focused on this. The cult can convert, thus making its numbers stronger. Why would they NK, and keep their number at one, when they can convert and put it to 2, with no other difference other than they're one person stronger?

I actually was only saying it for arguments sake and was hoping Doggin would respond and clear this thing up for us. I doubt the Cult has the NK ability and certainly not an ability to both recruit and NK at the same time, so if it was one or other other, as you said (which I even still doubt).

My point was the chances of their being a SK in this game in addition to a mafia, a cult and a vig seems highly unlikely. So if we could confirm that the cult couldn't NK then it would tell us for pretty much certain that it was indeed Nicky that killed Michael and scum that killed Nicky. Not that it matters all that much, but I figured an answer on that from Doggin would put this thing to bed.

[Vito Corleone]

Well, I was going back and forth with him, and was the only one. If you think I'm dumb enough to draw attention to myself by voting for him when he had no votes rather than just jumping on the Rooney train, then to kill him at night as the only person attacking him, then lynch me today.

Also, I don't think there's a serial killer. My guess is we now have 4 scum, 2 cult members, and a doctor, to say the least. I think Nicky killed Michael, the cop.

I agree with the simplest concept: Nicky whacked our cop, and the scum whacked Nicky.

But I don't get the scum whacking Nicky at all. Anyway you slice it, it's an amateur move. If it was Henry, what game would he possibly be playing? The Bugs Bunny move of, "would I throw a lighted match if my pal Rocky was in there?" Doesn't seem likely.

But it's also totally amateur for the scum to target Nicky and expect the rest of us to believe that Henry was responsible.

It's just not a good play either way... except that it has me completely confused. In that respect, it worked perfectly.

Regardless--anyone have a voting time line from day one?

Calling the real Dan X?

[Jimmy Conway]

I actually was only saying it for arguments sake and was hoping Doggin would respond and clear this thing up for us. I doubt the Cult has the NK ability and certainly not an ability to both recruit and NK at the same time, so if it was one or other other, as you said (which I even still doubt).

My point was the chances of their being a SK in this game in addition to a mafia, a cult and a vig seems highly unlikely. So if we could confirm that the cult couldn't NK then it would tell us for pretty much certain that it was indeed Nicky that killed Michael and scum that killed Nicky. Not that it matters all that much, but I figured an answer on that from Doggin would put this thing to bed.

It seems Doggin has taken a "play it out"approach so I think we need to go with what's the most "reasonable" thing here. That is that Nicky shot Mikey and the scum got Nicky.

Otherwise it seems any other possibility is weighed WAY too much not in favor of the town. I just don't think that a game would be built to be so difficult for the town. This being my opinion of course.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Ouch. This sucks.

It has been mentioned, but I dont think we need to focus on hypotheticals...that could lead us down a bad path and the next lynch is extremely important which kinda sucks this early in the game.

I really really really dont like Henry Hill. The cat just bothers me. His attitude sucks. He didnt contribute **** and then the second someone starts to question his motives and interactions with Nicky he flips out and gets super defensive.

Whats the deal Henry? You've acted like a prick all game and you should have known that with Nicky's death you would become a target because or you interaction.

[Joe Cabot]

It seems Doggin has taken a "play it out"approach so I think we need to go with what's the most "reasonable" thing here. That is that Nicky shot Mikey and the scum got Nicky.

Otherwise it seems any other possibility is weighed WAY too much not in favor of the town. I just don't think that a game would be built to be so difficult for the town. This being my opinion of course.

Completely agreed, I figured if we got an answer on that it would clear it up. We didn't, so as you said we should just assume the most logical of conclusions based upon what we know. If there's two NKs again tonight, then we reevaluate.

[Marcellus Wallace]

I agree with the simplest concept: Nicky whacked our cop, and the scum whacked Nicky.

But I don't get the scum whacking Nicky at all. Anyway you slice it, it's an amateur move. If it was Henry, what game would he possibly be playing? The Bugs Bunny move of, "would I throw a lighted match if my pal Rocky was in there?" Doesn't seem likely.

But it's also totally amateur for the scum to target Nicky and expect the rest of us to believe that Henry was responsible.

It's just not a good play either way... except that it has me completely confused. In that respect, it worked perfectly.

Calling the real Dan X?

As much as he is bothering me, thats a damn good point.

[Vito Corleone]

And potentially lose our doctor? I believe the doctor should self-protect until we have confirmed innocents or reason to protect people for specific purposes.

I'd be surprised if the doc didn't self-protect last night. Amazingly, we got thru a whole day without a role reveal. Should we be able to do that for a second day in a row, he'd be wise to self-protect again.

[Joe Cabot]

I agree with the simplest concept: Nicky whacked our cop, and the scum whacked Nicky.

But I don't get the scum whacking Nicky at all. Anyway you slice it, it's an amateur move. If it was Henry, what game would he possibly be playing? The Bugs Bunny move of, "would I throw a lighted match if my pal Rocky was in there?" Doesn't seem likely.

But it's also totally amateur for the scum to target Nicky and expect the rest of us to believe that Henry was responsible.

It's just not a good play either way... except that it has me completely confused. In that respect, it worked perfectly.

Calling the real Dan X?

Whether Hill is mafia or not, I doubt Nicky's death had anything to do with his interactions. It could be anything from them getting a hint that he had a power role to thinking they knew who he was and wanting to get rid of that player or who knows what else. That kind of setup normally doesn't work either way, so I doubt that was the motivation.