Coaches or Players?

[RSJ]

Yes.  I can absolutely look at the record because thats what coaches are judged on.  You can give me every hypothetical you want, but the bottom line is, prior to Tom Brady, BB was a loser HC Period.  No question about it.  The fact are the facts.  He was a loser.  

 

He stumbled upon a 7th round pick who he was forced to play because his starter almost died on the playing field.  If you want to give him credit for that pick, fair enough, he clearly didnt know what he had or he'd been starting from day 1.

 

We shall see what comes of BB after Brady.  I wouldnt be the least bit surprised to see him retire.  And if he doesnt, you're right, he might be successful because he's a good coach.  As successful as he was with Brady?  I highly doubt it. 

 

Brady was picked in the 6th round. He was also picked by BB. The Pats havent won it all in about 10 years. Belicheck's demise wont be because of losing Brady, it will be because of his ego imo.

[Bleedin Green]

BB was a special teams coordinator and he was an assistant head coach with the Jets. He is much more then just a defensive guy.

 

He would still be a HOF coach without Brady. He went to the playoffs with Testeverde and Cassell. There is no doubt he would have won a super bowl with of without Brady.

 

Not taking into consideration the cleveland move is just ignorant.

 

I'm curious, what exactly is your basis for the bold?  The Patriots entire team has been the All-Brady show for at least the past 4 seasons as Belly's vaunted D has completely fallen apart around him.  Even going back to their championship years, while he may not have put up the numbers he does these days, you can't say Brady wasn't an integral part of those teams' success.  I'm not saying the guy isn't a good coach, but I see no reason to believe Belly would have had remotely similar success if, over these years, he was starting at QB some combination of Drew Bledsoe, Rohan Davey, Doug Flutie, Matt Cassel, Brian Hoyer, and well... you get the picture.

[RSJ]

I'm curious, what exactly is your basis for the bold?  The Patriots entire team has been the All-Brady show for at least the past 4 seasons as Belly's vaunted D has completely fallen apart around him.  Even going back to their championship years, while he may not have put up the numbers he does these days, you can't say Brady wasn't an integral part of those teams' success.  I'm not saying the guy isn't a good coach, but I see no reason to believe Belly would have had remotely similar success if, over these years, he was starting at QB some combination of Drew Bledsoe, Rohan Davey, Doug Flutie, Matt Cassel, Brian Hoyer, and well... you get the picture.

 

Your statement can be taken either way. Brady has never won without BB either. Like I said earlier the Browns were a wierd situation at the end, and he was only in NE for a year before Brady. You can't really say well its because of Brady, when BB picked Brady. If it was a Phil Jackson situation where BB went there after Brady was already there it would be different. We will have to see what happens after Brady leaves - but I believe BB finds another QB and they will still win. 

[Bleedin Green]

Your statement can be taken either way. Brady has never won without BB either. Like I said earlier the Browns were a wierd situation at the end, and he was only in NE for a year before Brady. You can't really say well its because of Brady, when BB picked Brady. If it was a Phil Jackson situation where BB went there after Brady was already there it would be different. We will have to see what happens after Brady leaves - but I believe BB finds another QB and they will still win. 

 

Winning games and winning Super Bowls are entirely different animals.  I'm not saying he'll be a complete failure without Brady, but trying to dismiss the importance Brady had to those championships seems a bit unfounded.  The Pats stepped in sh*t with Brady, that much is evident by the fact that he was a 6th round pick, and they have shown no signs of being particularly adept at drafting or grooming QBs since then, so I see no reason to believe that who the QB was had absolutely no relevance and that BB would have turned any one of the other long list of loser QBs they had into the same player had Brady not been there.

 

Oh, and the statement really can't be taken either way, for the simple fact that Brady has never in his career had the opportunity to play without Belichick as his coach.  On the other hand, Belichick cannot say the same of Brady.  If Belichick was as brilliant in Cleveland as you claim, it begs the question of why he spent the next 4 years of his career as an assistant under Parcells with the Pats and Jets before getting another shot.

[JiFtheOracle]

BB was a special teams coordinator and he was an assistant head coach with the Jets. He is much more then just a defensive guy.

 

He would still be a HOF coach without Brady. He went to the playoffs with Testeverde and Cassell. There is no doubt he would have won a super bowl with of without Brady.

 

Not taking into consideration the cleveland move is just ignorant.

 

BB made his bones as defensive coordinator under Bill Parcells.  Nobody gave a **** about his time as an assitant or special teams coach.  Its what he did with the Giants that made him a HC candidate. 

 

Your 2nd statement, the whole thing, is just stupid and pointless.  No offense.  Its baseless conjecture and you have absolutely nothing in this world to give it support.  Because he made the playoffs with Vinny and Cassell?  Woopty doo.  Rex made it twice with Sanchez.  Is he a HOF'er? 

 

I have taken into consideration the Cleveland move...and you know what I get from it?  He had 1 winning season as a HC in 6 years and was an utter failure until Brady was forced into action. 

 

Keep throwing out hypothetical's and what if's and conjecture you cant support.  And I'll keep throwing out a concrete fact that BB was 41-55 as a HC pre-Brady. 

[JiFtheOracle]

Winning games and winning Super Bowls are entirely different animals.  I'm not saying he'll be a complete failure without Brady, but trying to dismiss the importance Brady had to those championships seems a bit unfounded.  The Pats stepped in sh*t with Brady, that much is evident by the fact that he was a 6th round pick, and they have shown no signs of being particularly adept at drafting or grooming QBs since then, so I see no reason to believe that who the QB was had absolutely no relevance and that BB would have turned any one of the other long list of loser QBs they had into the same player had Brady not been there.

 

Oh, and the statement really can't be taken either way, for the simple fact that Brady has never in his career had the opportunity to play without Belichick as his coach.  On the other hand, Belichick cannot say the same of Brady.  If Belichick was as brilliant in Cleveland as you claim, it begs the question of why he spent the next 4 years of his career as an assistant under Parcells with the Pats and Jets before getting another shot.

 

Bingo.  And he was 41-55 prior to that day and apparently still HOF and SB bound. 

[Bleedin Green]

BB made his bones as defensive coordinator under Bill Parcells.  Nobody gave a **** about his time as an assitant or special teams coach.  Its what he did with the Giants that made him a HC candidate. 

 

Your 2nd statement, the whole thing, is just stupid and pointless.  No offense.  Its baseless conjecture and you have absolutely nothing in this world to give it support.  Because he made the playoffs with Vinny and Cassell?  Woopty doo.  Rex made it twice with Sanchez.  Is he a HOF'er? 

 

I have taken into consideration the Cleveland move...and you know what I get from it?  He had 1 winning season as a HC in 6 years and was an utter failure until Brady was forced into action. 

 

Keep throwing out hypothetical's and what if's and conjecture you cant support.  And I'll keep throwing out a concrete fact that BB was 41-55 as a HC pre-Brady. 

 

I had completely missed this bolded part when RSJ first posted it.  To clarify, Belichick absolutely did not make it to the playoffs with Cassel.  And as far as Vinny goes, Herm freakin' Edwards made it to the playoffs with Vinny too, and 7 years later no less.

[JiFtheOracle]

I had completely missed this bolded part when RSJ first posted it.  To clarify, Belichick absolutely did not make it to the playoffs with Cassel.  And as far as Vinny goes, Herm freakin' Edwards made it to the playoffs with Vinny too, and 7 years later no less.

Even better, so BB was HOF and SB bound prior to Brady because he once made the playoffs with Vinny T. as his starting QB.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

LMFAO

 

Crack baby.

 

Get it out, get out that cry, waaaaahhhhhhhh.

[Integrity28]

Get it out, get out that cry, waaaaahhhhhhhh.

 

 

I definitely come across as the one crying here, definitely.

[T0mShane]

Good coaches marginalize bad players, then amplify the play of good players. Head coaching is largely administrative in nature--roster management and delegation of duties, getting enough of the right players in front of the right assistant coaches and running the right schemes to fit your talent. If you resurrected Vince Lombardi and made him head coach of these Jets, the first thing he'd do is send Holmes and Sanchez home, then he'd pull Morhinweg into his office to explain exactly how many times per game they're running the sweep. To answer the question: good coaching results in good players ending up on the roster. Bad coaching results in bad players ending up on the roster.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

 

I definitely come across as the one crying here, definitely.

Good, glad we are in agreement.