JetNation Debate: Bwanazulia vs. Patsfantx

[BwanaZulia]

TX, if you whole arguement (or the only one you want to continue) is that the Jets will not do better next year because "Chad is mediocre" you have lost. The history of the NFL has proved, that even with a mediocre QB teams can win championships.

Of course, the facts and stats show that Chad, while not elite, is a good quarterback who can lead his team to wins in the regular and post season.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

but how about whole team? How about one of the best tandems in receiving this year? How about a defense getting better and better? How about the leader in punt returns or Nugent going 4-4?

2007 looms ahead and the QB is only part of it. Chad wins games, is a winning quarterback. Try to focus.

BZ

That great receiving tandem is part of the 23rd ranked offense in the NFL.

That "improving" defense is ranked 28th in the NFL.

Nugent is the 18th ranked kicker in the NFL.

The Jets do not even have a player ranked in the top 32 in punt returns.

Contending teams do not have poor across-the-board performances like that.

But the Jets will win next year because you say so.

[BwanaZulia]

That great receiving tandem is part of the 23rd ranked offense in the NFL.

That "improving" defense is ranked 28th in the NFL.

Nugent is the 18th ranked kicker in the NFL.

The Jets do not even have a player ranked in the top 32 in punt returns.

Contending teams do not have poor across-the-board performances like that.

But the Jets will win next year because you say so.

The Jets will win next year because of all of that.

This was a "rebuilding" team set to go "1-7" at the bye week buy has amassed at the very least, a .500 season.

So here is your argument in a nut shell, if we are THAT bad this year at 8-6 imagine how good we can be next year with another year for the offense, defense and head coach?

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

TX..... I am out for the night... back tomorrow morning.

Between now and then, hopefully you will come up with a little more to add to your argument than your usual one liners and smiley faces.

Try to make a case, based on what has happend this year that the Jets will not be better next year.

Try.

Back in the morning.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Try to make a case, based on what has happend this year that the Jets will not be better next year.

I've been doing that the entire thread, but you choose to ignore the facts.

Maybe I'll try your crystal ball approach tomorrow.

Look's like you have all your peanut gallery behind you using that approach.

Later.

[BwanaZulia]

Good morning...

A new day and a new round to the debate.

Topic: The Jets will achieve greatness starting in 2007. Eric Mangini has this team headed in the right direction and big things are just around the corner.

Point One: Mangini is moving in the right direction

Yesterday, I showed how the Jets have taken a "mediocre QB" and a "brilliant minded" coach and have turned a 4-12 season into at the very least a .500 season. A huge improvement or as some would say, an "over achievement." Either way that is progress and moving in the right direction. Case closed.

Point Two: The Jets will achieve greatness starting in 2007

Now we are talking about next year and the future where TX has no facts. There are two things to focus on in that point. The first is "achieve greatness" which for all intents and purposes is to win games, get to the playoffs, win in the playoffs, get to the Super Bowl and win the Super Bowl. Agreed?

The second part is "starting in 2007" that is NOT to say that the Jets WILL win the Super Bowl in 2007, but they will be on their way to the Super Bowl starting in 2007.

How to win to the Super Bowl (just to be clear):

1) Have a winning season

2) Get into the playoffs

3) Win all playoff games

4) Win the Super Bowl

Now, to break that down even further.

1) Have a Winning Season

Unless there is some huge meltdown this year, the Jets will have a winning season at the very least they went from 4-12 to 8-8. Check. The team is not in any cap trouble has a majority of its best players coming back and seems to have a team that can run a good draft and put together a team. The schedule will be tougher next year on paper, but the Jets will be better.

2) Get into the playoffs:

There is a shot at the playoffs this year, but how do you get into the playoffs? You have to win in your division. The Jets proved this year that they can win in their division (beating every team at least once) and remember that is with a "mediocre QB." You also have to win on the road which the Jets and their preparation have done as they are 5-2 on the road this year. So to get into the playoffs next year we need to beat our divisional opponents and win on the road. Looks doable. Check.

Win all playoff games:

Now we get into the murky waters of the debate and try to project, based on what we see this year and the improvement next year as to whether the Jets can win in the playoffs. First thing TX will say is that Chad can't win in the playoffs but since he has (2-2) that is just wrong. There are at least 20 starting QBs that have NEVER won in the playoffs. Only a very few actually get to win in the playoffs since it is on and done. Chad has won and on the road (no dome warrior). You also need a sound defense which the Jets are building. It has gotten better every week and over the season. Even TX will admit that the 3/4 takes time and the right personnel and since we have a "brilliant minded" head coach with defensive experience, we will get there. You also need a running game which starts with the offensive line. Nobody can argue that the offensive line hasn't played well and isn't going to only get better. The running game needs some work, a power back or a step up from Houston. Either way it is an off season need and the easiest thing to plug into a system (just ask the Colts). The last thing you need is talent in the receiving core (check) good special teams (check) and a head coach who has experience in the playoffs and in big gamea (check). Looks like the Jets are being built from the ground up to win in the playoffs.

4) Win the Super Bowl

There is no argument for this. The Super Bowl is a crap shoot one way every game. Even the dynasty teams will admit that they win not by domination but by a few big plays (total of 9 pts in 3 Super Bowls). Is it the refs? Is it the play calling? Injuries? Who knows. Get there and play your best ball.

It is clear that TX has not basis, no foundation and no ability to make a clear argument as to why the Jets WON'T be better in 2007.

To recap his arguments:

Schedule: It is based on this years teams and since the Jets have a winning season this year and play well on the road, there is no reason to think that will decline. Also, history has shown us (see early post) the Super Dynasty teams go into decline which the Pats are headed into. The Dolphins and Bills don't look too competitive and that makes the schedule easier.

Chad: His argument that Chad can't win against the good defenses is weak and can be dismantled by two facts. He HAS won against good defenses and he is only ONE part of a team. You don't need to win EVERY game against a good defense to achieve greatness, just enough. Chad is having a good season and there is no reason to think he won't have a better one next year.

Expectations: That is voodoo and TX knows it. If expectations killed teams the Patriots would never have their second or third rings.

Pats: See the Super Bowl slump post. They are declining, it is written on the wall. History shows us it will happen and it is.

Ground Game: Is the easiest thing to fix. The running back position is the most plug and play and again, TX knows it. It starts with a good offensive line (check) and cap room (check). Anyone can go pick up Corey Dillion off the street and win a Super Bowl right?

Sorry TX. Game over.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Let me try and respond to BZ's War and Peace post by taking on his points individually.

Be right back.

[BwanaZulia]

Let me try and respond to BZ's War and Peace post by taking on his points individually.

Be right back.

I know it is hard when you are running out of one liners and smilies.

Try hard.

This is really starting to look like a bitch slapping and let's just say you aren't wearing the pants.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

This is really starting to look like a bitch slapping and let's just say you aren't wearing the pants.

You are as delusional about debates as you are about the Jets.

[PatsFanTX]

Point One: Mangini is moving in the right direction

Yesterday, I showed how the Jets have taken a "mediocre QB" and a "brilliant minded" coach and have turned a 4-12 season into at the very least a .500 season. A huge improvement or as some would say, an "over achievement." Either way that is progress and moving in the right direction. Case closed.

I happen to agree with that assessment 100%.

However, the "right direction" does NOT mean the Jets will be a mighty force in the AFCE in 2007.

[BwanaZulia]

I happen to agree with that assessment 100%.

However, the "right direction" does NOT mean the Jets will be a mighty force in the AFCE in 2007.

Wait, didn't you say this?

If Mangini continues with the purge (which I think he will) he will build the team through youth, speed and strength all the while getting rid of the salary cap albatross.

I don't understand. You say we are going to build a team like that, we are 8-6 now, why would we NOT do better next year?

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

I don't understand. You say we are going to build a team like that, we are 8-6 now, why would we NOT do better next year?

BZ

Please re-read post #10 in this thread.

[BwanaZulia]

More quotes from TX on Mangini:

To effectively run a pure 3-4 defense you have to have the right personnel especially the LB's (could Abe play OLB and DFat on the nose full time?)

Right now, the Jets do not have the right players to run the 3-4 all the time.

I think Mangini would be smart enough to recognize that and Hendu's 4-3 defense would stay for at least one more year.

But you can bet your bottom dollar that Mangini would start getting the right players in place to switch to the 3-4. :wink:

11 years NFL experience under the best HC in the NFL along with 3 Super Bowl titles.

What would he have to do for you to be sold on him?

So... again explain to me how this "brilliant minded" head coach with "11 years of experience under the best HC" won't find the right personnel for the job next year to improve the Jets defense?

Hmm?

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Please re-read post #10 in this thread.

I did and responded to it in #12, #14, #17 and #41.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

The second part is "starting in 2007" that is NOT to say that the Jets WILL win the Super Bowl in 2007, but they will be on their way to the Super Bowl starting in 2007.

How to win to the Super Bowl (just to be clear):

1) Have a winning season

2) Get into the playoffs

3) Win all playoff games

4) Win the Super Bowl

That is a very nice simplistic formula, however, it is unrealistic for the Jets, or for that matter, any NFL team. And for arguements sake, we'll keep the Steelers abberation of last year out of the equation because the odds of that happening again are astronomical.

At a bare minimum to be a serious Super Bowl contender, a team needs to win their division and have at least one home playoff game. Better yet, be a top 1 or 2 seed and get that all-important bye.

Going 9-7 and slipping into the playoffs as a Wild Card team may be nice and touchy-feely for the fans, but those teams traditionally get bounced early.

With that said, the 2007 Jets will not unseat the Pats for the AFCE title. So once again, they will go through what they are going through this year. Hoping to just slip into the playoffs with help from other teams as a #6 seed.

[BwanaZulia]

That is a very nice simplistic formula, however, it is unrealistic for the Jets, or for that matter, any NFL team. And for arguements sake, we'll keep the Steelers abberation of last year out of the equation because the odds of that happening again are astronomical.

At a bare minimum to be a serious Super Bowl contender, a team needs to win their division and have at least one home playoff game. Better yet, be a top 1 or 2 seed and get that all-important bye.

Going 9-7 and slipping into the playoffs as a Wild Card team may be nice and touchy-feely for the fans, but those teams traditionally get bounced early.

With that said, the 2007 Jets will not unseat the Pats for the AFCE title. So once again, they will go through what they are going through this year. Hoping to just slip into the playoffs with help from other teams as a #6 seed.

Of course it is more complex than that, but I didn't want to confuse you too much.

If you are boiling down your entire argument to "The Jets can't do better in 2007 because they cannot unseat the Pats in the AFC East" you need to study a little NFL history (see slump post).

The Pats are in a decline mode.

- In 2002, 2003 they are 8-0 at home. Last year and this year 5-3.

- For the last 4 years they have dominated the Jets. This year, 1-1 and were beaten at home.

- The Pats used to dominate the Colts. Not this year.

- The Pats used to not have 2 bad games in a row. Witness this year losing to the Colts and Jets at home.

- Pats defense in the last 3 years (pts per game allowed)

2006: 22.9

2005: 21.1

2004: 16.3

But that isn't a decline right?

So, if your whole argument comes down to the Pats being the only thing to stop the Jets from greatness in the future and being better in 2007, you need another.

Hurry up, only one more day.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

- Pats defense in the last 3 years (pts per game allowed)

2006: 22.9

2005: 21.1

2004: 16.3

I am very impressed that at least you are using facts today.

Now you just need to take the next step, and get your facts correct.

The 2006 Pats are ranked 2nd in the NFL of allowing the fewest points at 13.8 per game.

Did you just make up the 22.9 number?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ppg&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

[BwanaZulia]

I am very impressed that at least you are using facts today.

Now you just need to take the next step, and get your facts correct.

The 2006 Pats are ranked 2nd in the NFL of allowing the fewest points at 13.8 per game.

Did you just make up the 22.9 number?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=ppg&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

You are right, wrong number.

How about those other 4 points? Or the other entire post? Or your own quotes?

You have a great ability to nit pick one number, but almost no ability to put together a cohesive argument.

I am sorry but one liners and smilies won't help you in here.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

The Pats are in a decline mode.

- In 2002, 2003 they are 8-0 at home. Last year and this year 5-3.

- For the last 4 years they have dominated the Jets. This year, 1-1 and were beaten at home.

- The Pats used to dominate the Colts. Not this year.

- The Pats used to not have 2 bad games in a row. Witness this year losing to the Colts and Jets at home.

-Since when does it matter if you win games at home or on the road? A win is a win regardless where it comes from.

-The Pats are 7-1 versus the Jets the last four years. So just because they split with a division rival, that makes them on the decline? BTW, the Pats finished 4-2 in the AFCE this year. I'll take that anyday.

-So the Pats lost one regular season game to a very good football team. Yea, thats a sure sign they are on the decline. But the Pats wins over the Bears (who the Jets couldn't even score) and Bengals don't mean anything.

-Wow, for the first time in 4 years, the Pats lost two games in a row. That is a sure-fire sign they are on the decline.

[BwanaZulia]

-Since when does it matter if you win games at home or on the road? A win is a win regardless where it comes from.

-The Pats are 7-1 versus the Jets the last four years. So just because they split with a division rival, that makes them on the decline? BTW, the Pats finished 4-2 in the AFCE this year. I'll take that anyday.

-So the Pats lost one regular season game to a very good football team. Yea, thats a sure sign they are on the decline. But the Pats wins over the Bears (who the Jets couldn't even score) and Bengals don't mean anything.

-Wow, for the first time in 4 years, the Pats lost two games in a row. That is a sure-fire sign they are on the decline.

You are standing in the forest staring a tree trunk saying "what forest?"

Add them up TX they all point to a decline. Losing at home. Losing two and a row. Losing to a team you used to dominate. Being shut out by the Dolphins (don't think I didn't forget that one).

How about Tom Brady? How has been doing?

2004: 92.6

2005: 92.3

2006: 86.1

Oops.

Again, I don't need to turn this into a Pats vs Jets thing, but since you are stuck with only one argument and that is the Jets will not do better next year because of the Pats and I think I have outlined how the Pats have been declining, you are down to nothing.

Want to try a different tactic?

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

How about Tom Brady? How has been doing?

2004: 92.6

2005: 92.3

2006: 86.1

Ah, the all-telling QB rating to determine how good/bad a QB is.

I thought you were above that meaningless stat.

But since you brought up Tom Brady, lets take a look at his numbers that mean something:

2004: 28 TD's, 14 INT's, 3692 yards, 60.8%

2005: 26 TD's, 14 INT's, 4110 yards, 63.0%

2006: 22 TD's, 12 INT's, 3055 yards, 60.9%

You are right BZ, Tom Brady is in a free-fall decline.

Now, let's get back to the original topic.

Your shot.

[Maxman]

This debate is being brought to you by Heyburn Law. Have a dispute that you can settle on your own? Call Heyburn Law today.

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[BwanaZulia]

Ah, the all-telling QB rating to determine how good/bad a QB is.

I thought you were above that meaningless stat.

But since you brought up Tom Brady, lets take a look at his numbers that mean something:

2004: 28 TD's, 14 INT's, 3692 yards, 60.8%

2005: 26 TD's, 14 INT's, 4110 yards, 63.0%

2006: 22 TD's, 12 INT's, 3055 yards, 60.9%

You are right BZ, Tom Brady is in a free-fall decline.

Now, let's get back to the original topic.

Your shot.

My shot? You haven't landed a blow yet.

I have put down three good arguments and rebutted yours twice. Each.

Each and every time, you take it from one topic "Jets in 2007" to something else "Chad isn't good against good defenses" (but he has won and has won in the playoffs) to another "The Jets have to go through the Pats" (which they have this year and I put down some facts for a declining team) to "Tom Brady's QB rating doesn't mean anything".

Next I am sure you are going to argue that your stadium has better beer stands or somethings.

How about answers any number of the points I have made as opposed to scurrying away at any signs of your own shadow.

If you can't just throw up your hands and say this is all unfair because it is a Jets board.

Oh wait, you already have.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Next I am sure you are going to argue that your stadium has better beer stands or somethings.

That's a no brainer, the Jet don't even have a stadium.

So BZ, you never addressed how the Jets will improve their anemic defense to contend in the AFCE next year.

All you came back with is "mumble-jumble" of how they will have another "year in the system".

How are they going to upgrade the DL (especially NT), find some play-making LB's and find some real NFL CB's?

Championship teams do not have the 24th ranked defense in the NFL.

[BwanaZulia]

That's a no brainer, the Jet don't even have a stadium.

So BZ, you never addressed how the Jets will improve their anemic defense to contend in the AFCE next year.

All you came back with is "mumble-jumble" of how they will have another "year in the system".

How are they going to upgrade the DL (especially NT), find some play-making LB's and find some real NFL CB's?

Championship teams do not have the 24th ranked defense in the NFL.

I will let you answer you.

To effectively run a pure 3-4 defense you have to have the right personnel especially the LB's (could Abe play OLB and DFat on the nose full time?)

Right now, the Jets do not have the right players to run the 3-4 all the time.

I think Mangini would be smart enough to recognize that and Hendu's 4-3 defense would stay for at least one more year.

But you can bet your bottom dollar that Mangini would start getting the right players in place to switch to the 3-4. :wink:

11 years NFL experience under the best HC in the NFL along with 3 Super Bowl titles.

What would he have to do for you to be sold on him?

And that scenario is very realistic.

If Mangini continues with the purge (which I think he will) he will build the team through youth, speed and strength all the while getting rid of the salary cap albatross.

Regardless of how many wins the Jets get next season, you guys will see a totally different football team on the field every Sunday.

That I am certain of.

There, you answered your own argument.

Mangini the "brilliant mind" will "purge" and build a team through "youth, speed and strength" that will make us a "totally different football team".

Thanks TX.

You want to answer any of your own questions?

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

I will let you answer you.

There, you answered your own argument.

Thanks TX.

You want to answer any of your own questions?

BZ

Wow, so all your debating skills consist of a "cut and paste" feature of another persons opinions?

Hell, I would have been better off debating madmike.

[BwanaZulia]

Wow, so all your debating skills consist of a "cut and paste" feature of another persons opinions?

Hell, I would have been better off debating madmike.

In case you missed it, they are YOUR opinions. I gave you my opinions over and over again in this thread. I have posted huge paragraphs which you have obviously not had the intestinal fortitude to read. I thought you might be able to understand your own writing better. Should I throw in a few smilies to make it easier on you?

When I do write a lot... you complain..

Let me try and respond to BZ's War and Peace

Basically, I was just showing you how you made you wrong.

So, do you take back what you said or are you sticking with it?

Pick a side. Pick a story and stick with it.

Either Mangini is a "brilliant mind" and knows the 3/4 and how to build it or he doesn't. Of course, you already have said he does.

You are like a chicken running around with its head chopped off refusing to admit it is dead.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Either Mangini is a "brilliant mind" and knows the 3/4 and how to build it or he doesn't. Of course, you already have said he does.

Yes, I do think Mangini is a "brilliant mind" and can do that. However, he actually hasn't done anything yet to build the Jets defense into a top 10 defense.

So back to the debate, if we agree that Mangini is a "brilliant mind", where do you think he learned that from?

One of your arguements is the decline of the Pats. So are you saying all of a sudden that BB has lost all his skills in building a strong defense?

So if Mangini can do it, what is preventing BB (who has actually accomplished things in the past) from doing it again and keeping the Pats a top the AFCE.

You have a proven commondity (BB) versus and unkown commodity (Mangini). Where would you put your money?

[BwanaZulia]

Yes, I do think Mangini is a "brilliant mind" and can do that. However, he actually hasn't done anything yet to build the Jets defense into a top 10 defense.

So back to the debate, if we agree that Mangini is a "brilliant mind", where do you think he learned that from?

One of your arguements is the decline of the Pats. So are you saying all of a sudden that BB has lost all his skills in building a strong defense?

So if Mangini can do it, what is preventing BB (who has actually accomplished things in the past) from doing it again and keeping the Pats a top the AFCE.

You have a proven commondity (BB) versus and unkown commodity (Mangini). Where would you put your money?

Finally. You are back with something to chew on.

The Jets have improved on Defense:

PTS / Yards

2006: 20.1 / 346.0

2005: 22.2 / 308.8

More yards (from earlier in the season) and less points. That is better. And before you go on about yards matter, look at the records. Last year teams were getting a lead (14-0 by half) and sitting on it. This year, we have had a few teams have to fight back when we had big leads.

Also we have improved in sacks (30 vs 30) yards rushing (133.7 vs 136.6).

Is it top ten yet? No way, but as you stated, Mangini is using 4/3 personnel for a 3/4 system. That will only get better as we get more 3/4 personnel and they learn the system. You agreed to that already.

Your whole argument, for now, comes down to "The Jets won't be better in 2007 because the Pats will be great again." You have ignored the post where I showed the decline of Super Bowl Dynasty teams.

BB is brilliant, but the team is declining and will continue to do so. The Pats will have a tougher schedule again next year (your argument) and have lost the core of their players.

- Scoring less: 22.9 vs 23.7

- Less yards 352 vs 328.3

- Losing to teams they didn't before (Colts/Jets/Miami)

- Losing at home where they used to win.

None of that is important?

It is kinda sad you have come down to this one tiny, minute point to stick to when I have brought up so very much.

Ask yourself? When was the last time the Pats were shut out? When was the last time Brady had two bad games in a row and lost them both? When was the last time Brady looked so frustrated? Ask yourself why.

How about last year in the playoffs? Wasn't that Brady's first big loss in the playoffs? First big miss by your kicker? All those firsts coming in the last year, but the sky isn't falling on Patriot Nation?

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

BB is brilliant, but the team is declining and will continue to do so. The Pats will have a tougher schedule again next year (your argument) and have lost the core of their players.

- Scoring less: 22.9 vs 23.7

- Less yards 352 vs 328.3

- Losing to teams they didn't before (Colts/Jets/Miami)

- Losing at home where they used to win.

None of that is important?

Ask yourself? When was the last time the Pats were shut out?

So, scoring .08 points less in 2006 is a sign of the Pats decline? Why don't you look at the big picture, instead of cherry-picking miniscule stats that fit your agenda.

If you did look at the big picture, you would find that the 2006 Pats are averaging 22.9 per game and giving up 13.8 per game, for an average winning margin of 9.1 per game. But in 2005, the Pats averaged 23.7 points per game and gave up 21.1 points per game, for an avaerage winning margin of only 2.6 per game.

So BZ, would you rather win games by 9.1 points or 2.6 points?

Your next stat that you reference, total yards per game is as meaningless as the QB rating stat. How many points in the standings do teams get for yardage?

Next, the Pats lost to the Phins and Colts in 2005, so that is yet another moot point you make.

And again, this seems to be going over your head, what is the difference if you win games at home or on the road?

And I love your last little tidbit. The Pats were shut out by the Phins and are on a decline. But the Jets get shut out by BOTH the Bears and Jags and they are rapidly improving.

Your arguements are starting to become a joke.

[BwanaZulia]

So, scoring .08 points less in 2006 is a sign of the Pats decline? Why don't you look at the big picture, instead of cherry-picking miniscule stats that fit your agenda.

If you did look at the big picture, you would find that the 2006 Pats are averaging 22.9 per game and giving up 13.8 per game, for an average winning margin of 9.1 per game. But in 2005, the Pats averaged 23.7 points per game and gave up 21.1 points per game, for an avaerage winning margin of only 2.6 per game.

So BZ, would you rather win games by 9.1 points or 2.6 points?

Your next stat that you reference, total yards per game is as meaningless as the QB rating stat. How many points in the standings do teams get for yardage?

Next, the Pats lost to the Phins and Colts in 2005, so that is yet another moot point you make.

And again, this seems to be going over your head, what is the difference if you win games at home or on the road?

And I love your last little tidbit. The Pats were shut out by the Phins and are on a decline. But the Jets get shut out by BOTH the Bears and Jags and they are rapidly improving.

Your arguements are starting to become a joke.

Me, nitpick a number? You are losing it. You are taking two averages and subtracting them to make YOUR argument. That is creative beyond a doubt.

I look at the big picture (losing at home, beaten by rivals, losing in the playoffs) and you say to look at the facts. I post facts and figures and you disqualify the as not "important" and tell me to look at the big picture.

Which one is it?

And now you are claiming that it doesn't matter if you win on the road or home. Right, because that is what the Pats were known for in the Super Bowl years, losing at home. Or is that too big picture for you?

As for the Jets... Yes a team that went from 4-12 to 8-6 is rapidly improving. Even you can comprehend that I think.

Do you want to move on try to prove any other point or are you going to spend the next 12 hours trying argue that the Pats according to your stats and your figures are not declining?

Hey BZ, great job on staying on topic and answering the question that Max posed.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Me, nitpick a number? You are losing it. You are taking two averages and subtracting them to make YOUR argument. That is creative beyond a doubt.

Your kidding me, right?

Let me make sure I understand your thought process on this one.

Before I even begin, do you agree that the success of a football team is based on BOTH the offense and defense combined (along with ST)?

So, if the Pats offense is scoring .08 points less in 2006 versus 2005, but the Pats defense is giving up 7.3 less points in 2006 than 2005, you can't come to the conclusion that the TEAM is better off with those combined results?

Oh yea, I'm just taking two averages and subtracting them.

Great arguement, once again.

[BwanaZulia]

Your kidding me, right?

Let me make sure I understand your thought process on this one.

Before I even begin, do you agree that the success of a football team is based on BOTH the offense and defense combined (along with ST)?

So, if the Pats offense is scoring .08 points less in 2006 versus 2005, but the Pats defense is giving up 7.3 less points in 2006 than 2005, you can't come to the conclusion that the TEAM is better off with those combined results?

Oh yea, I'm just taking two averages and subtracting them.

Great arguement, once again.

You are the master of taking one sentence of 50 I write and using that are you NEXT argument.

First it was Chad. Than it was schedule. Then it was the Pats. Now it is this one number to prove that Pats are better to prove that they will be better to prove that the Jets will be worse.

Good logic.

You only want to play by your numbers. I show you stats of the Pats decline (QB rating, scoring less, less yards) and you dismiss them all.

Here is why your number is no good. YOU ARE PLAYING A WEAK SCHEDULE.

Ta da!! Yes, you are winning with a bigger margin when playing crap teams. The Pats had a tough schedule in 2005 and a weak schedule in 2006. That is the reason for your number.

Sep 10 Buffalo Won 19-17 - (.500)

Sep 17 @N.Y. Jets Won 24-17 - GREAT TEAM

Sep 24 Denver Lost 7-17 (.500)

Oct 1 @Cincinnati Won 38-13 (under .500)

Oct 8 Miami Won 20-10 (under .500)

Oct 22 @Buffalo Won 28-6 (.500)

Oct 30 @Minnesota Won 31-7 (under .500)

Nov 5 Indianapolis Lost 20-27 - Good team. Lost

Nov 12 N.Y. Jets Lost 14-17 - Good team. Lost.

Nov 19 @Green Bay Won 35-0 - (under .500)

Nov 26 Chicago Won 17-13 - Good team won.

Dec 3 Detroit Won 28-21 - Under .500

Dec 10 @Miami Lost 0-21 - Bad team. Lost. Under .500

Dec 17 Houston Won 40-7 - Under .500

So that scoring on and being scored on margin. All to do with your schedule.

Make sense?

You ready to try and argue anything else or are you done?

Post away tonight. I will be back in the morning.

BZ

[Maxman]

Alright Men (and Tx) -- we are locking this one down at 10am. Please post your final thoughts and then the voting will begin.

[BwanaZulia]

Good morning all.

Since TX has failed so miserably to present his case, to bring forth either good discussion or facts and for the most part has been pounded into the wood like a nail, I shall take pity on him.

Let me state his case as to why the 2007 Jets will NOT be better next year or achieve greatness in the coming years.

Reason 1: Sophomore Slump

While I did a good job at the start of this thread showing how Eric Mangini's two mentors (Bill & Bill) all did better in their second year of coaching than their first, there is precedent for a second year coach doing worse. The reason that TX sighted "Lofty Expectations" are not it though, it is about newness. As with any new system, defense, offense, player or play part of the reason it works is because it is new and unseen. There haven't been the hours, days, months and years to study it and to know its tendencies. Mangini has built a unique team that has a lot of new players and a new game plan. Next year, that game plan could get exposed. If the Jets are seen as a threat next year opponents will study this season and do a better job defending against it. They will know how many times the Jets try a trick play and when. They will see what Chad likes to do in a 3rd and short situation. They will study Justin Millers big run backs. All of this could lead to teams beating the Jets.

ANSWER: The obvious answer to this is keep fresh and keep up the new ideas. Mangini and has proved this year that he can think outside of the box and should next year as well. His coaching staff seems young and hungry.

Reason 2: Injury

It might seem overly obvious (although TX didn't pick up on it) that teams are made and broken by injuries. A good team can go from first to worst losing just a few players. The Jets have done pretty well with injuries this year but at the start of next season a big injury to Coles, Chad, D'Brick or Nuge could all put a chink in the armor of the 2007 season.

ANSWER: Mangini knows that depth at every position, playing rookies and a solid backup core is what keeps a team in the hunt. He knows that tough training camps get players ready for the regular season. For every guy on that field Mangini will make sure there at least two to take his place.

Reason 3: The AFC

While TX likes to go on and on about how the Patriots will break every cycle of the NFL, rebuff the historians and become an ever lasting dynasty for the next hundred years, he knows that is a very long shot. What is true is that the AFC is the better division and highly competitive. A team can go 10-6 in the AFC and not make the playoffs while an 8-8 team in the NFC and be in. The better teams, quarterbacks, running backs, coaches are in the AFC (if not, why would they be so dominate). For the most part the Super Bowl winners come from the AFC. That is not good news for the Jets for 2007 and beyond. It means that every year in order to have a shot they will have to face over and over again some of the best teams in football. TX will say this is his argument about the schedule, but is it not about next year or the year after next it is about the next five years. The Jets will ALWAYS have to play amazing teams and in some of the hardest places to win. In the NFC you can be the best of the worst, in the AFC you have to be the best of the best. The good news is, when you get to the Super Bowl, your odds of winner are slightly higher, but getting there is harder.

ANSWER: The answer to this for the 2007 Jets is build on what they have done to date. Build up a confusing and hard hitting defense. Put together a game changing special teams. Get hard working, no nonsense, smack you in the face players in the offense and make sure everyone on the field is playing as one and is smart as hell. It is the recipe written by others, Mangini will just put in his own dash of seasoning for good measure.

There you go TX.

Next time bring your A game.

BZ