JetNation Debate: Bwanazulia vs. Patsfantx

[Maxman]

Ladies and Gentleman welcome to the JetNation fight club. This is our first event. Let's give it up for BZ and TX for agreeing to this debate. Here is how it will work.

-Bwanazulia is going to debate Patsfantx

-The debate will stay open until Wednesday at 10am

-Only BZ and TX can post in this thread (if I set this up right)

-On Wednesday at 10am this thread will be locked and we will start a poll to decide the winner

-The winner will be declared at 4pm on Thursday

-Personal attacks and the rest of the site rules do apply in this thread

-The winner gets 500 in vcash

Let's talk about the Jets. Here is a topic to start you off:

The Jets will achieve greatness starting in 2007. Eric Mangini has this team headed in the right direction and big things are just around the corner.

Let the games begin...

[BwanaZulia]

Could you have made the topic any easier? I mean the proof is in the pudding.

The debate starts this morning.

BZ

[Maxman]

Could you have made the topic any easier? I mean the proof is in the pudding.

The debate starts this morning.

BZ

Well according to Mr. Patsfantx, these are nothing more than, "the same old Jets". So please illustrate, using action verbs why you feel the Jets are headed for greatness. Tx will be joining you in here later this morning so feel free to start with your opening statement.

I will leave the floor to you two now.

[PatsFanTX]

I mean the proof is in the pudding.

BZ

Are you kidding me?

The 2006 Jets will be a bigger one-hit wonder than Zager and Evans.

I'll show you the facts as to why after I get out of my meeting at 11:00 AM.

[BwanaZulia]

You are going to show facts? I wait with baited breath.

Here are some to consider:

- The Jets are QB deep for 2007 (Chad + Kellen)

- The Jets are RB deep for 2007 (Cedric + Leon)

- The 3/4 Defense is working and will work better in 2007

- The 2006 Draft is a HUGE success with the 2007 Draft only to add

- The Jets are WR deep for 2007 (Coles + Cotchery)

- The Jets are Oline deep for 2007 (Mangold + D'Brick)

The second year of the Mangini era is going to be something to watch.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Mangini - Second Year Genius

Mangini didn't just study under Bill and Bill, he is going to improve on it. Look at how Bill and Bill did on their first and second year:

Belichick @ Patriots

2000 - 5-11-0

2001 - 11-5-0 (not a bad year)

Parcells @ Patriots

1993 - 5-11-0

1994 - 10-6-0

Ok, but how did they do their first time out, first coach year?

Parcells @ Giants

1983 - 3-12-1

1984 - 9-7-0

What about the other Bill? We know he sucked his first year, but did he get better on his second year?

Belichick @ Browns

1991- 6-10-0

1992 - 7-9-0

Yup, even BB could improve on his first year.

TX will argue that the Jets are the "same old Jets" and certainly not that Super Bowl losing Patriots of old. So how do the same old Jets do on their second year with a coach?

Parcells @ Jets

1997 - 9-7-0

1998 - 12-4-0

Edwards @ Jets

2001 - 10-6-0

2002 - 9-7-0 - Went to the second round of the playoffs.

Mangini at the VERY least will go 8-8 this season and improve on that for next year. 11-5 in 2007 (you heard it here first).

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

The Super Bowl Slump

Another reason the Jets will be doing well in 2007 is because their most competitive rivalry, the Patriots, are going down the hill.

Before we talk about the Pats in 2007, we should take a look at the other AFC East teams and how they might shake out.

Buffalo Bills:

The Bills are going as far as JP Loseman will take them and that looks to be just shy of the playoffs. Expect the same thing for next year. While the Bills will regroup and come back stronger in 2007, they won't be able to make a run or turn the corner till they figure out that JP is not the man for the job. He is too inconsistent and doesn't seem to be picking up on the finer points of the game. Their defense and special teams keep them in it.

Dolphins

The 2007 Dolphins are going to be looking around for some more help. Daunte Culpepper will probably be back, but that might be the bad news. Their defense, while playing well in December, is in the December of their years and gets another year older. Ronnie Brown might not be stacking up to be an elite running back and Nicky might be playing his last song next year.

Now... the Super Bowl Let down.

The Patriots Dynasty is on a decline and here is what history taught us about that decline.

Remember the Steelers in the 1970s? They won 4 Super Bowls and then...

1979 - 12-4-0 - Super Bowl

1980 - 9-7-0 - Playoffs

1981 - 8-8-0 - Nada

1982 - 6-3-0 - Rebuilding

How about those Cowboys? They had a good run of Super Bowls and then...

1995 - 12-4-0 - Super Bowl

1996 - 10-6-0

1997 - 6-10-0

TX knows the sun is setting on his dynasty.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Don't look now... TX eats crow...

" Knowing the Jets, they will pass on one of the brightest up and comers (Mangini) in the NFL and go with a retread loser like Haslett. " By PatsFanTX - 01-08-2006, 08:29 PM

I guess you don't know the Jets very well.

"Eric Mangini will be the next HC of the NEP." By PatsFanTX - 04-05-2005, 10:42 AM

Ouch, must hurt now.

"If they think he is truly their guy, go after him with both barrels loaded (big money and personnel decisions) and lock up one of the brightest football minds for the next 5 years." - by PatsFanTx - 01-11-2006, 12:08 PM

I guess that mind is going to get us pretty far eh?

Best one yet...:

Responding to...

I think most of us are resigned to a bad 2006. We're going to want serious progress in 2007 and a real run at a championship in 2008, though.

PatsFanTx says...

And that scenario is very realistic.

If Mangini continues with the purge (which I think he will) he will build the team through youth, speed and strength all the while getting rid of the salary cap albatross.

Regardless of how many wins the Jets get next season, you guys will see a totally different football team on the field every Sunday.

That I am certain of.

Man.. you are just too good.

If this move does not make it crystal clear who is calling all the shots in the Jets organization, then you guys are missing the boat.

One of Mangini's strengths is his ability to anticipate rather then react. Great call there Boozer.

Mangini had to convince Woody that Bradway would only get in the way of progress.

Unfortunately, another good move by the Jets.

Seems like you agree. The Jets made a good move and are going to do better.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Ok... that is my shot across the bow.

TX... show up or shut up.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Let's talk about the Jets. Here is a topic to start you off:

The Jets will achieve greatness starting in 2007. Eric Mangini has this team headed in the right direction and big things are just around the corner.

Five Reason Why the Jets Will Not Win the AFCE in 2007

1). Lofty Expectations: Other than the Saints, Mangini and the Jets have been the best "feel good" story in the NFL this year. With that, will come much higher expectations going into 2007. I can see some prognosticators even having the Jets as "Super Bowl Sleepers" next season. Keep in mind that past performance is usually a pretty good indicator of future results. Every year that the Jets are predicted as a Super Bowl contender, they lay a huge egg. The 2007 season will be no different.

2). The Schedule: The 2006 Jets had an easier schedule than the undefeated 1972 Miami Dolphins. The Jets played 5 games ( Pats x2, Bears, Colts and Jags) against quality teams in 2006 and came away with a 1-4 record. They basically beat up on all the bottom feeding teams and were incapable of winning against the "big boys". Next year, the schedule maker gave them a dose of reality:

HOME

New England

Buffalo

Miami

Cleveland

Pittsburgh

Philadelphia

Washington

Denver or Kansas City

AWAY

New England

Buffalo

Miami

Baltimore

Cincinnati

Dallas

NY Giants

Jacksonville or Tennessee

3). The Ground Game: Championship teams have one thing in common: The ability to stop the run and run the football. They Jets do neither one of them very well. Even with their easy schedule, the Jets rank 24th against the run and 18th running the football. Those numbers will not translate into an AFCE title next year.

4). Mediocre QB: Nothing else needs to be said other than PennyBoy's 5-15 record against top 10 defensive teams. Given his chance to reverse that trend this year, PennyBoy responded by going 1-4 against the better teams he faced. No matter how much you guys think he can, PennyBoy is incapable of carrying the Jets on his back against a quality opponent. He has yet to prove that his entire career and 2007 will be no different.

5). New England Patriots: As long as Robert Kraft is still the owner, Bill Belichick the HC and Tom Brady the QB, the Patriots will be the team to beat in the AFCE. 2007 will be no different.

[PatsFanTX]

The Jets will achieve greatness starting in 2007. Eric Mangini has this team headed in the right direction and big things are just around the corner.

Hey BZ, great job on staying on topic and answering the question that Max posed.

[BwanaZulia]

(Going to take each point in its own post)

1). Lofty Expectations: Other than the Saints, Mangini and the Jets have been the best "feel good" story in the NFL this year. With that, will come much higher expectations going into 2007. I can see some prognosticators even having the Jets as "Super Bowl Sleepers" next season. Keep in mind that past performance is usually a pretty good indicator of future results. Every year that the Jets are predicted as a Super Bowl contender, they lay a huge egg. The 2007 season will be no different.

If Lofty Expectations were any indicator of success or failure the Patriots would never have won the second two Super Bowls. I mean how many times can Peter King right "Dynasty" before you want to puke.

Sorry, but the game is won on the field not in the media.

Sorry, TX.. but if that is your best point, this is going to be a long couple of days for you.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

2). The Schedule: The 2006 Jets had an easier schedule than the undefeated 1972 Miami Dolphins. The Jets played 5 games ( Pats x2, Bears, Colts and Jags) against quality teams in 2006 and came away with a 1-4 record. They basically beat up on all the bottom feeding teams and were incapable of winning against the "big boys". Next year, the schedule maker gave them a dose of reality:

HOME

New England

Buffalo

Miami

Cleveland

Pittsburgh

Philadelphia

Washington

Denver or Kansas City

AWAY

New England

Buffalo

Miami

Baltimore

Cincinnati

Dallas

NY Giants

Jacksonville or Tennessee

You forgot to add your prediction of us being "1-7 by the bye week" this year. It would help.

The Schedule will be tougher next year, not doubt. Of course, the Jets will be a better team (see my other two posts).

Dallas and Giants will be in free-fall land (TO does that to a team). The AFC East is always tough but we will take more than a few games.

The schedule always looks tough until it is played.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

(Going to take each point in its own post)

If Lofty Expectations were any indicator of success or failure the Patriots would never have won the second two Super Bowls. I mean how many times can Peter King right "Dynasty" before you want to puke.

Sorry, but the game is won on the field not in the media.

Sorry, TX.. but if that is your best point, this is going to be a long couple of days for you.

BZ

Let's nip these types of responses in the bud.

Until the Jets prove otherwise (the facts), please do not use your hypothetical hyperboles (the game is won on the field) to support your opinions.

Again, the facts are, everytime the Jets are predicted to challenge for a Super Bowl, they crap the bed.

[BwanaZulia]

3). The Ground Game: Championship teams have one thing in common: The ability to stop the run and run the football. They Jets do neither one of them very well. Even with their easy schedule, the Jets rank 24th against the run and 18th running the football. Those numbers will not translate into an AFCE title next year.

Wow, you must not have watched any of the game on Sunday.

The Jets have struggled this year at both stopping the run and running the ball but have improved as the season has gone on. Last week, against a tough run defense, Houston was able to bust through for a TD and make a 20 yard scamper.

The Jets also held the Vikings to well under a hundred yards.

That is this year.

Next year we go on the market to round out the running group. A top notch back behind a strong, young offensive line will only do better at running the ball.

Stopping the run will also get better. A bigger, beefer NT and more time to dive into the 3/4.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Let's nip these types of responses in the bud.

Until the Jets prove otherwise (the facts), please do not use your hypothetical hyperboles (the game is won on the field) to support your opinions.

Again, the facts are, everytime the Jets are predicted to challenge for a Super Bowl, they crap the bed.

Try responding to the first 3 posts of facts and figures.

We are talking about the future and there are no facts there. Otherwise, you wouldn't look so wrong all the time.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

4). Mediocre QB: Nothing else needs to be said other than PennyBoy's 5-15 record against top 10 defensive teams. Given his chance to reverse that trend this year, PennyBoy responded by going 1-4 against the better teams he faced. No matter how much you guys think he can, PennyBoy is incapable of carrying the Jets on his back against a quality opponent. He has yet to prove that his entire career and 2007 will be no different.

Chad is a good quarterback and has proven he can beat good defenses and win on the road in the playoffs. IF he is the starting QB in 2007 he will only do better than this year:

- More time to learn the system

- Further away from the surgery

- Better protection

- Better running game

Hard to argue that Chad is doing a poor job when we are 8-6 and he just had the best game of his career.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

5). New England Patriots: As long as Robert Kraft is still the owner, Bill Belichick the HC and Tom Brady the QB, the Patriots will be the team to beat in the AFCE. 2007 will be no different.

Ahh.. the Pats. I answered this in #7.

Slump.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

Off to lunch.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Chad is a good quarterback and has proven he can beat good defenses and win on the road in the playoffs. IF he is the starting QB in 2007 he will only do better than this year:

- More time to learn the system

- Further away from the surgery

- Better protection

- Better running game

Hard to argue that Chad is doing a poor job when we are 8-6 and he just had the best game of his career.

BZ

I thought this was a debate?

In case you never took a debating course in college, you are suppose to support your opinions with "facts". In the entire thread, all you have been using is your "opinion", just like the above response.

Please provide the "facts" to dispute the following comments:

PennyBoy has a 5-15 record against top 10 defenses.

PennyBoy has never won a divisional playoff game or above.

PennyBoy has thrown more INT's than TD's this year.

[PatsFanTX]

Another reason the Jets will be doing well in 2007 is because their most competitive rivalry, the Patriots, are going down the hill.

Let's see here.

The "facts" of the matter are the Pats will have just won their 4th consectutive AFCE title, but it BZ's "opinion" that they are going downhill.

Just like he said for the past 3 years.

Please bring something to the debate table other than your opinion.

Thanks in advance,

TX

[PatsFanTX]

Wow, you must not have watched any of the game on Sunday.

The Jets have struggled this year at both stopping the run and running the ball but have improved as the season has gone on. Last week, against a tough run defense, Houston was able to bust through for a TD and make a 20 yard scamper.

That is this year.

There you go again.

I don't care what the Jets did for one game against the Vikings.

The bottom line, even after that game, the Jets are ranked 24th against the run in the NFL and 18th running the ball.

[PatsFanTX]

Hard to argue that Chad is doing a poor job when we are 8-6 and he just had the best game of his career.

BZ

Let's break down one of your few "facts" a little bit further.

PennyBoy is 7-2 against the bottom-feeding teams in the NFL and is 1-4 against the good teams.

That is typical performance that PennyBoy has demonstrated over his entire career.

How many bottom-feeding teams do you think he will face in the playoffs?

[PatsFanTX]

I guess BZ took an extended lunch break trying to find some facts.

[BwanaZulia]

I thought this was a debate?

In case you never took a debating course in college, you are suppose to support your opinions with "facts". In the entire thread, all you have been using is your "opinion", just like the above response.

Please provide the "facts" to dispute the following comments:

PennyBoy has a 5-15 record against top 10 defenses.

PennyBoy has never won a divisional playoff game or above.

PennyBoy has thrown more INT's than TD's this year.

TX, you have not presented a fact that has anything to do with the 2007 season. Chad has shown he can win, he has shown he can win in the post season. You have no argument or facts.

Show me that 5-15 record and your "top 10 defense".

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

TX....

Since you seem to be off the "facts" or want back on.

Where are you "facts" that show the Jets are NOT going to do better in 2007?

What you stated were 5 different opinions (expectations, schedule, ground game, qb and pats). There were no facts in any of those.

FACT: Parcell's HC's do better in their second year of coaching.

FACT: Chad is a winning QB with a CAREER 89.2 average, 11,579 yds, 70 TDs and a 65.3 completion percentage.

FACT: The Jets beat the Pats this year after 4 years of not being able to beat them. Improvement.

FACT: The Pats are doing worse and worse after their last Super Bowl win:

2004: 14-2-0

2005: 10-6-0

2006: 9-4-0

FACT: You have personally said that Eric Mangini is "the brightest football minds".

FACT: The Jets came back from a 4-12 horrible season to now an 8-6 season. A huge improvement.

So... to restate the obvious.

You have called Mangini one of the "the brightest football minds" who took a "mediocre QB" and now has a winning season with him.

You have no facts to back say that the Jets won't be better next year.

None.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

The second year of the Mangini era is going to be something to watch.

BZ

2nd year coaching wonders:

Mike Mularkey Buffalo 6-10 to 9-7 to 5-11

Saban Miami 4-12 to 9-7 to 6-8

Mike Riley San Diego 5-11 to 8-8 to 1-15

Chan Gailey 6-10 to 10-6 to 8-8

Dick MacPherson 1-15 to 6-10 to 2-14

Good luck with those trends.

[PatsFanTX]

So... to restate the obvious.

You have called Mangini one of the "the brightest football minds" who took a "mediocre QB" and now has a winning season with him.

You have no facts to back say that the Jets won't be better next year.

None.

BZ

And the opposite is true as well.

And you have no facts to say that the Jets will be better next year.

The Jets have a much more difficult schedule next year, PennyBoy still freezes up against good teams, the Jets defense still can not stop the run and you equate that to a better season for next year?

Pure speculation on your part.

How do you know the entire Jets team did not ovre achieve this year?

[BwanaZulia]

2nd year coaching wonders:

Mike Mularkey Buffalo 6-10 to 9-7 to 5-11

Saban Miami 4-12 to 9-7 to 6-8

Mike Riley San Diego 5-11 to 8-8 to 1-15

Chan Gailey 6-10 to 10-6 to 8-8

Dick MacPherson 1-15 to 6-10 to 2-14

Good luck with those trends.

Mangini has done more with less than all of those. You know it as he is a "brilliant mind".

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

And the opposite is true as well.

And you have no facts to say that the Jets will be better next year.

The Jets have a much more difficult schedule next year, PennyBoy still freezes up against good teams, the Jets defense still can not stop the run and you equate that to a better season for next year?

Pure speculation on your part.

How do you know the entire Jets team did not ovre achieve this year?

Of course, that is why your "facts" argument or "Debating 101" is full of holes.

We are talking about making a case for next year, why we will be better.

So far, you have made no case.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

Chad has shown he can win, he has shown he can win in the post season. You have no argument or facts.

Show me that 5-15 record and your "top 10 defense".

BZ

First off, PennyBoy is 2-2 in the playoffs with both "wins" coming in first round Wild Card playoff games. After 6 years, I would hardly call PennyBoy a "winner" when it comes to the playoffs.

His 5-15 record against top 10 defenses is now 6-18 updated throught the Vikings game:

2006: 3-4 W: NE; BUF; MI L: NE; BUF; CHI; JAX

2005: 0-1 L: JAX

2004: 1-5 W: BUF L: NEx2; PITTx2; BUF;

2003: 0-4 L: NE; MI; BUF; PHI

2002: 2-4: W: MI; IND L: OAKx2; JAX; CLEV;

[BwanaZulia]

TX.... how about responding to this:

I think most of us are resigned to a bad 2006. We're going to want serious progress in 2007 and a real run at a championship in 2008, though.

PatsFanTx says...

And that scenario is very realistic.

If Mangini continues with the purge (which I think he will) he will build the team through youth, speed and strength all the while getting rid of the salary cap albatross.

Regardless of how many wins the Jets get next season, you guys will see a totally different football team on the field every Sunday.

That I am certain of.

So you are "certain" that the Jets are going to make a serious progress in 2007 and a championship run in 2008?

Why are you even debating this? You have already admitted it to be true.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

First off, PennyBoy is 2-2 in the playoffs with both "wins" coming in first round Wild Card playoff games. After 6 years, I would hardly call PennyBoy a "winner" when it comes to the playoffs.

His 5-15 record against top 10 defenses is now 6-18 updated throught the Vikings game:

2006: 3-4 W: NE; BUF; MI L: NE; BUF; CHI; JAX

2005: 0-1 L: JAX

2004: 1-5 W: BUF L: NEx2; PITTx2; BUF;

2003: 0-4 L: NE; MI; BUF; PHI

2002: 2-4: W: MI; IND L: OAKx2; JAX; CLEV;

So what you are saying is, although Chad has never proved he is a elite QB, he has a winning percentage and can win on the road in the playoffs.

Sounds good enough to me.

I know you want to debate Chad for the rest of your life, but how about whole team? How about one of the best tandems in receiving this year? How about a defense getting better and better? How about the leader in punt returns or Nugent going 4-4?

2007 looms ahead and the QB is only part of it. Chad wins games, is a winning quarterback. Try to focus.

BZ

[PatsFanTX]

2007 looms ahead and the QB is only part of it. Chad wins games, is a winning quarterback. Try to focus.

BZ

To expand on PennyBoy's 6-18 record.

As of right now, 9 of the 14 established games next year are against teams with top 10 scoring defenses. If the standings stay the same, add Jax and Denver to that mix.

How can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007 when their QB is a .333 performer against top 10 defenses.

Will PennyBoy take some kind of pill during the off season and then all of a sudden start beating good defensive teams? He could be 4-7 or 3-8 before playing the rest of his schedule which include Dallas and Philadelphia.

[BwanaZulia]

To expand on PennyBoy's 6-18 record.

As of right now, 9 of the 14 established games next year are against teams with top 10 scoring defenses. If the standings stay the same, add Jax and Denver to that mix.

How can the Jets achieve greatness in 2007 when their QB is a .333 performer against top 10 defenses.

Will PennyBoy take some kind of pill during the off season and then all of a sudden start beating good defensive teams? He could be 4-7 or 3-8 before playing the rest of his schedule which include Dallas and Philadelphia.

First of all defenses come and go, I mean, the Patriots were a top ten defense last year and now... not so much. Last year, Tampa Bay had a great defense. Now? Next year, the Jags could have a horrible defense.

The Bears have a great defense right? Yet they can get blown out of the water by a crap team like Tampa.

You must get off this Chad topic. Chad is one of the many weapons that the Jets have. You have admitted that he over-achieved this year, so why would next year, with more time to be healthy, learn the system, get better protection, have a better running game would he not do better?

BZ