Good Luck this Year!

[PatriotReign37]

:yawn:Comparing Brian Westbrook to Ronnie Brown. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. You can't be serious. :lol: Someone needs to alert you that you cannot compare two completely different backs,

That made me laugh too. What a joke.

Brown couldnt carry Westbrooks jock strap.

[Irish Jet]

That made me laugh too. What a joke.

Brown couldnt carry Westbrooks jock strap.

Please go away.

[like2god]

Comparing Brian Westbrook to Ronnie Brown. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. You can't be serious. :lol: Someone needs to alert you that you cannot compare two completely different backs, playing in two completely different systems, to try to help your argument. Brian Westbrook isn't asked to carry the load like that and plays in Andy Reid's "pass first" philosophy. Maybe he could do, maybe he can't. Westbrook really isn't even a Running Back. He plays everywhere, much like Reggie Bush. Those types of players are labeled Running Backs, but they really have no position.

Your numbers are also flawed. Yeah great he posted solid numbers over the first seven games. Awesome. That still backs up my point that he hasn't done **** consistently as a starter and cannot carry the load 20-25-30 times a game consistently over a 16 game season. He hasn't done it once, not in college and so far not in the NFL. There is a reason Miami is keeping Ricky Williams in town.

Elite Running Back he is not. A good one? Yes. Very good? Possibly, maybe, but not in my book. An elite Running Back is someone who can take the rock 300-350 times a year, stay healthy and doesn't need a complement. There are some who have a complement, but some of those don't need them.

No offense, but you're analysis is flawed.

If you look solely at the stats without taking into account his surrounding cast, situations that he was put in (or not put in), etc then you have a point.

But....

In his rookie year he had to share time with Ricky who had just come back from his suspension/retirement/touring with Lenny Kravitz/being an all around nitwit. Saban drafted Ronnie and then thought he could rehab Ricky and his trade value, it didn't work out that way. Ronnie still had a very good rookie year.

In his second season the offensive line was really bad, Miami was without a QB and Mike Mularkey was calling the plays. If Miami was down by a touchdown or if they trailed in the second half, they completely abandoned the running game and there were times when Ronnie ended up with 3 carries in the 2nd half of games. He was injured when his hand was caught in a facemask and he missed sometime, it was a freak accident and nothing more.

Last year he had the worst of both worlds in the first 2 weeks of the season, he had to share time with Chatman, Miami would once again abandone a consistent running game if they trailed in the 2nd half and Cam was running the offense. Now before people jump on that last part, Yes Cam is known as a great offensive coach, but he overextended himself by being the HC and the OC, and the offense was bland. He wasn't headcoaching material, Miami only hired him because of his offensive wisdom, which was negated because of his head coaching duties. So anyway, in week 3 ( ) Ronnie really started to show what he was capable of, there was pressure to give him the damn ball and he showed that he is a great back. Then he went on to have 3 straight games of at least 100 yards rushing and 100 yards receiving and as Irish Jets pointed out, he was on pace for 2,200 total yards for the season. Then the injury happened, again it was a freak accident and not indicitive of a player who is "injury prone".

In my mind, an injury prone player is one that misses a significant amount of time due to minor injuries (turf toe, strained elbow, hurt feelings, etc) or has missed time due to reoccurring injuries. Ronnie doesn't fit in either of those categories. Infact, if you think that Ronnie is injury prone, what would that make Adrian Peterson?

2005: High ankle sprain, missed 4 games and was bothered by it all season

2006: Broke collarbone on OCt 18th, missed rest of season

2007: Tore lateral collateral ligament, missed time and was bothered by it for rest of season

Peterson has missed as much (if not more) time as Ronnie, would Peterson be considered injury prone? Would anyone here kick him off the team because he can't stay healthy?

I didn't think so.

If Ronnie is given the carries he will be one of the best RB's in the league next year. If he has to share carries or isn't ready to go at the start of the season, then he won't be. Ronnie is a back that starts a game out slow (but still relatively well) and his real damage comes in the 2nd half of games when his power and strength are best utilized against tiring defenses. The only reason Miami kept Ricky this year is because of the unkown status of Ronnie's knee. By all reports, he was looking good months ago and is well on track for the start of the season.

He may not be in the elite category yet, but that doesn't mean that he can't make it there if given the damn ball.

[124]

Blah I just typed up this whole thing and hit the back button and it all went away.

Anyway, my point was to IJ, he does NEED a complement, as he has yet to proven he can carry the load for a team. He has 241 carries as his high. He was not worth the 2nd overall pick if he can't carry the ball 300+ times effectively over the course of a season, and stay healthy for all 16 games on a somewhat of a consistent basis.

And yes he's 26, but the knee injury on a Running Back is always serious and lets see how he effective he comes back. And, he's far from elite. You'd be hard to find many that put him in the Top 10 of their NFL RB's before the 2007 season, and now with his injury he definitely isn't involved in that list. Part of it due to injury, part of it due to his unableness to carry the load.

And like2god, your points are well and good, but the same thing goes for what I'm saying to IJ, until he's proven it, it doesn't matter. A Running Back taken that high should have more expected from him.

And yes I'd say Peterson is injury proned, somewhat. And Peterson, when healthy, can carry that ball 300-350 times a year and be effective no matter what time of the year it is. He's just that type of dominant, full-time back. Ronnie Brown just isn't. He needs a complement. The guy hasn't carried the load since High School.

But hey, thats all well and good, a lot of teams have complements or share the rock 15 carries one guy, 10-15 carries another, and thats where Brown would succeed. But my point is he's not worth how high he was taken and he's over-rated because of the spot where he was taken. People want to see him succeed because they see glimpses, but he wears down as games go on easily and wears down as the season closes.

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't know. If you want to really base dominance on stats, then look at when the stats came.

Brown put up great numbers, but he did that against the Jets, the Raiders, the Browns, and the Texans.

Washington and Dallas totally shut him down.

He was having a good game against the Patriots when he got injured, but it was pretty much in line with what others did against them.

Westbrook has been one of the (and arguably the) most electrifying RB's in the league. At the same time, if we're basing potential on stats, Westbrook never had a 900-yard rushing season until he was 27. I don't really care about stat compilations too much. I'd much rather have a RB who is red hot for 8 games and someone else has the rock in the other ones, than one who gets 75 yards every game (including garbage time and 3rd and long draw plays) to amass 1200 rushing yards on the season.

Westbrook is a special open-field runner. Very fast straightaway speed, very quick lateral speed, and a great receiver. Not to mention has a brain on his shoulders (remember that taking a knee for the team instead of scoring a TD last year).

Brown certainly has loads of potential, but four games against some of the league's worst rushing defenses hardly makes him even compare to Westbrook. At the same time, Miami had no passing threat and clearly had a worse OL. Not exactly insignificant.

[Irish Jet]

Blah I just typed up this whole thing and hit the back button and it all went away.

Anyway, my point was to IJ, he does NEED a complement, as he has yet to proven he can carry the load for a team. He has 241 carries as his high. He was not worth the 2nd overall pick if he can't carry the ball 300+ times effectively over the course of a season, and stay healthy for all 16 games on a somewhat of a consistent basis.

And yes he's 26, but the knee injury on a Running Back is always serious and lets see how he effective he comes back. And, he's far from elite. You'd be hard to find many that put him in the Top 10 of their NFL RB's before the 2007 season, and now with his injury he definitely isn't involved in that list. Part of it due to injury, part of it due to his unableness to carry the load.

And like2god, your points are well and good, but the same thing goes for what I'm saying to IJ, until he's proven it, it doesn't matter. A Running Back taken that high should have more expected from him.

And yes I'd say Peterson is injury proned, somewhat. And Peterson, when healthy, can carry that ball 300-350 times a year and be effective no matter what time of the year it is. He's just that type of dominant, full-time back. Ronnie Brown just isn't. He needs a complement. The guy hasn't carried the load since High School.

But hey, thats all well and good, a lot of teams have complements or share the rock 15 carries one guy, 10-15 carries another, and thats where Brown would succeed. But my point is he's not worth how high he was taken and he's over-rated because of the spot where he was taken. People want to see him succeed because they see glimpses, but he wears down as games go on easily and wears down as the season closes.

Like I said before. You don't need to be a workhorse type back to be considered elite. Soon, just about every team in the league will using running back by commision and very few running backs will be seeing 300 carries. That's the trend that is really taking over the league right now.

[Irish Jet]

I don't know. If you want to really base dominance on stats, then look at when the stats came.

Brown put up great numbers, but he did that against the Jets, the Raiders, the Browns, and the Texans.

Washington and Dallas totally shut him down.

He was having a good game against the Patriots when he got injured, but it was pretty much in line with what others did against them.

Westbrook has been one of the (and arguably the) most electrifying RB's in the league. At the same time, if we're basing potential on stats, Westbrook never had a 900-yard rushing season until he was 27. I don't really care about stat compilations too much. I'd much rather have a RB who is red hot for 8 games and someone else has the rock in the other ones, than one who gets 75 yards every game (including garbage time and 3rd and long draw plays) to amass 1200 rushing yards on the season.

Westbrook is a special open-field runner. Very fast straightaway speed, very quick lateral speed, and a great receiver. Not to mention has a brain on his shoulders (remember that taking a knee for the team instead of scoring a TD last year).

Brown certainly has loads of potential, but four games against some of the league's worst rushing defenses hardly makes him even compare to Westbrook. At the same time, Miami had no passing threat and clearly had a worse OL. Not exactly insignificant.

I was using Westbrook simply as an example, I'm not trying to indicate that Brown is at that level yet.

I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more to running backs than carrying the load.

[Irish Jet]

Also Sperm. I see you pointed out how Brown struggled vs Dallas and Washington.

Both of those teams had great run defenses last season and also you must consider that those were Browns first two games in a totally new offensive regime. Many good running backs struggled vs those teams. Heck even AP was shut down by Washington.

Just looked it up. Dallas were 6th vs the run, Redskins were 4th. No shame in struggling vs those teams.

[like2god]

I don't know. If you want to really base dominance on stats, then look at when the stats came.

Brown put up great numbers, but he did that against the Jets, the Raiders, the Browns, and the Texans.

Washington and Dallas totally shut him down.

He was having a good game against the Patriots when he got injured, but it was pretty much in line with what others did against them.

Westbrook has been one of the (and arguably the) most electrifying RB's in the league. At the same time, if we're basing potential on stats, Westbrook never had a 900-yard rushing season until he was 27. I don't really care about stat compilations too much. I'd much rather have a RB who is red hot for 8 games and someone else has the rock in the other ones, than one who gets 75 yards every game (including garbage time and 3rd and long draw plays) to amass 1200 rushing yards on the season.

Westbrook is a special open-field runner. Very fast straightaway speed, very quick lateral speed, and a great receiver. Not to mention has a brain on his shoulders (remember that taking a knee for the team instead of scoring a TD last year).

Brown certainly has loads of potential, but four games against some of the league's worst rushing defenses hardly makes him even compare to Westbrook. At the same time, Miami had no passing threat and clearly had a worse OL. Not exactly insignificant.

Ronnie was misused during the first 2 weeks of the season (Washington and Dallas), he was sharing carries and Miami was down which meant they moved away fromt he running game. Been there, already explained that.

The Pats game was hardly a repeat of the first 2 weeks, he was in line for yet another 100 yard game and he ended up with the injury. And again, his surrounding cast was far from what guys like LT, Peterson, etc have infront of them. Miami went 1-15 for a reason, they had alot of holes on the team. Give Ronnie a better surrounding cast and he'll do even better, just like any player in the NFL. Miami focused this offseason on building from the inside out, the OL is much improved and this year will be a good year for Ronnie if he isn't sharing the ball with Smokey.

Blah I just typed up this whole thing and hit the back button and it all went away.

Anyway, my point was to IJ, he does NEED a complement, as he has yet to proven he can carry the load for a team. He has 241 carries as his high. He was not worth the 2nd overall pick if he can't carry the ball 300+ times effectively over the course of a season, and stay healthy for all 16 games on a somewhat of a consistent basis.

And yes he's 26, but the knee injury on a Running Back is always serious and lets see how he effective he comes back. And, he's far from elite. You'd be hard to find many that put him in the Top 10 of their NFL RB's before the 2007 season, and now with his injury he definitely isn't involved in that list. Part of it due to injury, part of it due to his unableness to carry the load.

And like2god, your points are well and good, but the same thing goes for what I'm saying to IJ, until he's proven it, it doesn't matter. A Running Back taken that high should have more expected from him.

And yes I'd say Peterson is injury proned, somewhat. And Peterson, when healthy, can carry that ball 300-350 times a year and be effective no matter what time of the year it is. He's just that type of dominant, full-time back. Ronnie Brown just isn't. He needs a complement. The guy hasn't carried the load since High School.

But hey, thats all well and good, a lot of teams have complements or share the rock 15 carries one guy, 10-15 carries another, and thats where Brown would succeed. But my point is he's not worth how high he was taken and he's over-rated because of the spot where he was taken. People want to see him succeed because they see glimpses, but he wears down as games go on easily and wears down as the season closes.

Hogwash

Again, the guy hasn't been utilized properly. It's kind of hard for a back to look "elite" when he's getting 3 carries in the second half of games and only rushing 11 times a game. Ronnie has proven that when given the opportunity he can succeed. Give him that opportunity and a better surrounding cast and logic says that he should do as good or better than before. I would put Marion Barber in the elite category as well, he hasn't had a Tomlinson type season as far as rushing yards go, but that's because he was sharing the ball with Jones. Give Barber and Brown the ball 280-300+ times a year and they will be great runningbacks.

Again, just because a player hasn't done something, that doesn't mean that he can't. You have to look beyond the stat sheet and take other factors into account (How a player is utilized, surrounding cast, etc).

[like2god]

Also Sperm. I see you pointed out how Brown struggled vs Dallas and Washington.

Both of those teams had great run defenses last season and also you must consider that those were Browns first two games in a totally new offensive regime. Many good running backs struggled vs those teams. Heck even AP was shut down by Washington.

Just looked it up. Dallas were 6th vs the run, Redskins were 4th. No shame in struggling vs those teams.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Irish Jet again."

When I find another post worthy of rep, I'll come back to this.

[Sperm Edwards]

Also Sperm. I see you pointed out how Brown struggled vs Dallas and Washington.

Both of those teams had great run defenses last season and also you must consider that those were Browns first two games in a totally new offensive regime. Many good running backs struggled vs those teams. Heck even AP was shut down by Washington.

Just looked it up. Dallas were 6th vs the run, Redskins were 4th. No shame in struggling vs those teams.

They may have been 6th and 4th in rushing, but they didn't hold everyone to 32 yards and 3 ypc.

While still solid #'s, on average:

Washington surrendered 91 rushing yards per game at 3.7ypc

Dallas surrendered 95 rushing yards per game at 4.0ypc

And both of those #'s are skewed lower because of Ronnie Brown's 32 yard games at 3.0ypc against each.

[Irish Jet]

They may have been 6th and 4th in rushing, but they didn't hold everyone to 32 yards and 3 ypc.

While still solid #'s, on average:

Washington surrendered 91 rushing yards per game at 3.7ypc

Dallas surrendered 95 rushing yards per game at 4.0ypc

And both of those #'s are skewed lower because of Ronnie Brown's 32 yard games at 3.0ypc against each.

I know they didn't but I'm just pointing out that it's understandable for him to struggle vs those very good defenses so early in a new offensive system.

[PatriotReign37]

Westbrook has been one of the (and arguably the) most electrifying RB's in the league. At the same time, if we're basing potential on stats, Westbrook never had a 900-yard rushing season until he was 27.

Bear in mind, that in the WCO short passing plays are eqiuvalent to rushing the ball.

Westbrook is pefect for Holgrems system.

[Irish Jet]

Westbrook is pefect for Holgrems system.

I know they look alike and all, but still a statement worthy of a dunce smiley.

[PatriotReign37]

I know they look alike and all, but still a statement worthy of a dunce smiley.

Your lips must be sore from all that fanny kissing:bwahaharoll:

[PatriotReign37]

I was using Westbrook simply as an example, I'm not trying to indicate that Brown is at that level yet.

I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more to running backs than carrying the load.

Back peddling at its finest.

[124]

So wait, its okay to look beyond the stat sheet but its not okay to look at the reality?

Interesting.

I needed this thread, I forgot how much I love Dolphin fans.

[Sperm Edwards]

Bear in mind, that in the WCO short passing plays are eqiuvalent to rushing the ball.

Westbrook is pefect for Holgrems system.

Oh please. There have been lots of WCO RB's over the years. Not all of them have had such good receiving years or so many explosive running plays. Hell, Martin the "lock HOF'er" played in a WCO here for 4 straight years without a single 30-yard pass play.

Some guys become (at times) receiving beasts in such systems: Marshall Faulk, Ricky Watters, Roger Craig, Charlie Garner, Edgar Bennett, Dorsey Levens, and less-heralded 3rd-down backs like Amp Lee, etc.

But to assume that everyone in "Holmgren's system" puts up such production just by virtue of being there is silly.

Here's one for "Holmgren's system":

2005 - Shaun Alexander. Had about as good a season as you could want from a RB and was (deservedly) the league MVP. He averaged under 5 receiving yards per game. Westbrook averages over 50.

In a similar WCO for 4 years, Martin averaged under 20 receiving yards per game overall & he wasn't even a terrible receiver out of the backfield himself.

Neither of these two were in Westbrook's league as far as catching a dumpoff & doing something with it. Some guys are simply better at it than others. Not everyone can catch the ball as well as as Westbrook nor 9-10 yards per reception.

[Irish Jet]

Your lips must be sore from all that fanny kissing:bwahaharoll:

No offense, but if you were hit by a bus tommorow, it wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Irish Jet]

Oh please. There have been lots of WCO RB's over the years. Not all of them have had such good receiving years or so many explosive running plays. Hell, Martin the "lock HOF'er" played in a WCO here for 4 straight years without a single 30-yard pass play.

Some guys become (at times) receiving beasts in such systems: Marshall Faulk, Ricky Watters, Roger Craig, Charlie Garner, Edgar Bennett, Dorsey Levens, and less-heralded 3rd-down backs like Amp Lee, etc.

But to assume that everyone in "Holmgren's system" puts up such production just by virtue of being there is silly.

Here's one for "Holmgren's system":

2005 - Shaun Alexander. Had about as good a season as you could want from a RB and was (deservedly) the league MVP. He averaged under 5 receiving yards per game. Westbrook averages over 50.

In a similar WCO for 4 years, Martin averaged under 20 receiving yards per game overall & he wasn't even a terrible receiver out of the backfield himself.

Neither of these two were in Westbrook's league as far as catching a dumpoff & doing something with it. Some guys are simply better at it than others. Not everyone can catch the ball as well as as Westbrook nor 9-10 yards per reception.

I'm pretty sure he meant Andy Reids system.