JI/JN Border War Mafia Game Thread

[Frank Costello]

Yes - and no. The cult leader exists and can recruit, but the mechanics of how are different (and no, I won't tell you how). And the cult wins if it outnumbers the remaining players at the start of the day. As for the other details, PAFO

Doggin - does this mean the cult has to outnumber Townies + Scum or just Townies and Scum... In other words, if tomorrow morning the counts are 4 townies, 5 cultists and 3 scum, do they win?

[Frank Costello]

Doggin - does this mean the cult has to outnumber Townies + Scum or just Townies and Scum... In other words, if tomorrow morning the counts are 4 townies, 5 cultists and 3 scum, do they win?

Note the answer to this question is very important.. If the following occured and the cult wins in the setup I described, this could be end game:

Worst case scenario, Joe is a cultist and they've had 3 succesful conversions, putting the counts at 5-4-3, Town-Cult-Scum. If Lefty is innocent, and Joe is cult, that would put us at 4-4-3 heading into the night. But we'd have to assume that a) they've had a succesful conversion every night and they've converted the doctor and the doctor retains his powers (in other conversion games we've played the converted did not retain their powers) otherwise, the scum would just kill Joe tonight leaving us at 4-3-3, Town-Cult-Scum. But if all the above is true, the cultists would protect Joe tonight, hope the scum target him or target a townie and tomorrow is game over when they outnumber each group OR that their own conversion is once again succesfull..

In short, if the cult has been converting succesfully and win with 4 cultists, 3 scum, 3 townies left, Joe's move is conceivably and end game gambit..

[Doggin94it]

Doggin - does this mean the cult has to outnumber Townies + Scum or just Townies and Scum... In other words, if tomorrow morning the counts are 4 townies, 5 cultists and 3 scum, do they win?

The cult must outnumber all other players - townies + scum

[ZachEY]

EY is a homo.

only for you.

[Frank Costello]

The cult must outnumber all other players - townies + scum

THanks..

This is fine then, we aren't close to end game. We should lynch lefty and if he's anything other then scum, Joe goes next (imo)

[Lefty Ruggerio]

Note the answer to this question is very important.. If the following occured and the cult wins in the setup I described, this could be end game:

Worst case scenario, Joe is a cultist and they've had 3 succesful conversions, putting the counts at 5-4-3, Town-Cult-Scum. If Lefty is innocent, and Joe is cult, that would put us at 4-4-3 heading into the night. But we'd have to assume that a) they've had a succesful conversion every night and they've converted the doctor and the doctor retains his powers (in other conversion games we've played the converted did not retain their powers) otherwise, the scum would just kill Joe tonight leaving us at 4-3-3, Town-Cult-Scum. But if all the above is true, the cultists would protect Joe tonight, hope the scum target him or target a townie and tomorrow is game over when they outnumber each group OR that their own conversion is once again succesfull..

In short, if the cult has been converting succesfully and win with 4 cultists, 3 scum, 3 townies left, Joe's move is conceivably and end game gambit..

The cult must outnumber all other players - townies + scum

Then, Frank, it could be endgame scenario tomorrow at day or night.

If it's 5-4-3 Town-Cult-Scum, even if Joe was right and I'm scum, that puts the result at 5-4-2. If the Cult converts tonight and scum NK a townie, that's 4-5-2 going into day two. Unless the town lynchs cult tomorrow the game could be over.

Perhaps I was wrong before in saying that the town getting scum or cult with this vote would be equally beneficial. Perhaps the town should be hunting cult right now rather than scum.

[Frank Costello]

Then, Frank, it could be endgame scenario tomorrow at day or night.

If it's 5-4-3 Town-Cult-Scum, even if Joe was right and I'm scum, that puts the result at 5-4-2. If the Cult converts tonight and scum NK a townie, that's 4-5-2 going into day two. Unless the town lynchs cult tomorrow the game could be over.

Perhaps I was wrong before in saying that the town getting scum or cult with this vote would be equally beneficial. Perhaps the town should be hunting cult right now rather than scum.

But if Joe is a cultist lying, he dies next..

And I seriously refuse to believe anyway that the cult converts everynight. It's way to powerful..

But.. if you want to claim scum now, perhaps we can discuss this further..

[SMC]

only for you.

It's the pink sombraro & mustache. They're hard to resist.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

But if Joe is a cultist lying, he dies next..

And I seriously refuse to believe anyway that the cult converts everynight. It's way to powerful..

But.. if you want to claim scum now, perhaps we can discuss this further..

Way too powerful? I don't know about that. Only the Cult Leader has the power and he likely has no protection (like a vest). He can get lynched or NK'd, and if he tries to convert scum he likely dies (according to the rules I've seen).

I posed a question before to you and others voting for me: Why, if Cabot has a definate scum result on me after Night 2, he didn't make a case against me or vote for me in Day 3?

He posted 3 times that day without even mentioning me. Why?

[Frank Costello]

Way too powerful? I don't know about that. Only the Cult Leader has the power and he likely has no protection (like a vest). He can get lynched or NK'd, and if he tries to convert scum he likely dies (according to the rules I've seen).

I posed a question before to you and others voting for me: Why, if Cabot has a definate scum result on me after Night 2, he didn't make a case against me or vote for me in Day 3?

He posted 3 times that day without even mentioning me. Why?

How many times have we seen SK type characters make it to end game.. Bleedin in TV Land, Jets Things in the Jets game. Give either one of those players the ability to convert someone every night and they both would've won easily by about day 5..

Besides, my point is that there is no rational reason for Joe to fake claim now. None. I admit your point about his day 3 behavior is compelling, but he's painted himself into a corner for no reason right now. Give me an angle..

[Tony Soprano]

How many times have we seen SK type characters make it to end game.. Bleedin in TV Land, Jets Things in the Jets game. Give either one of those players the ability to convert someone every night and they both would've won easily by about day 5..

Besides, my point is that there is no rational reason for Joe to fake claim now. None. I admit your point about his day 3 behavior is compelling, but he's painted himself into a corner for no reason right now. Give me an angle..

Excellent points Frank. What would the upside before for Joe, to go on this suicide mission just to get one innocent lynched, when we aren't at endgame. I think his claim is fishy, but this is a sticking point for me as well. You may just hav eto be the guniea pig Lefty.

The only thing I can see is that Carlito or Sonny is the cult leader, and Joe is converted cult, and they feel that it's worth in to a) get an innocent lynched, avoid a lynch of Sonny/Carlito, at least for one more day, allowing another possible recruitment.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

How many times have we seen SK type characters make it to end game.. Bleedin in TV Land, Jets Things in the Jets game. Give either one of those players the ability to convert someone every night and they both would've won easily by about day 5..

Besides, my point is that there is no rational reason for Joe to fake claim now. None. I admit your point about his day 3 behavior is compelling, but he's painted himself into a corner for no reason right now. Give me an angle..

Excellent points Frank. What would the upside before for Joe, to go on this suicide mission just to get one innocent lynched, when we aren't at endgame. I think his claim is fishy, but this is a sticking point for me as well. You may just hav eto be the guniea pig Lefty.

The only thing I can see is that Carlito or Sonny is the cult leader, and Joe is converted cult, and they feel that it's worth in to a) get an innocent lynched, avoid a lynch of Sonny/Carlito, at least for one more day, allowing another possible recruitment.

Yep, Tony & Frank. If Sonny is the Cult Leader and Cabot is a disciple, then getting a non-cult player may be worth it because the Cult can recruit again tonight. Cabot made this claim when Sonny had 4 votes against him. I wasn't even in the lead on votes. It was done to take the train away from Sonny or even Carlito.

Also, I'm pretty sure Cabot is Pac. We know how Pac plays. We know what kind of role reveal he did the Jets player.

Plus, Frank or anyone, do you guys have any idea what kind of role Cabot is claiming? He says he isn't the cop. But what is he? He has a random night action ability? Why did he put an action on himself Night 1 as he claimed?

He said he didn't get a result back on himself Night 1 and Carlito Night 2, but so happened to get a result back on me?

I'd really like to know what kind of role is this.

[Frank Costello]

Excellent points Frank. What would the upside before for Joe, to go on this suicide mission just to get one innocent lynched, when we aren't at endgame. I think his claim is fishy, but this is a sticking point for me as well. You may just hav eto be the guniea pig Lefty.

The only thing I can see is that Carlito or Sonny is the cult leader, and Joe is converted cult, and they feel that it's worth in to a) get an innocent lynched, avoid a lynch of Sonny/Carlito, at least for one more day, allowing another possible recruitment.

That's a good angle, but if Lefty is innocent, the scum will be forced to NK Joe and we can lynch Carlito the next day. If we guessed wrong, the scum will kill Sonny that night. Even if they get another convert, they are almost certain to trade 2 for 1 here..

I know having a strategy based on scum actions is no good, but they'd have to do it for their own survival as well.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

That's a good angle, but if Lefty is innocent, the scum will be forced to NK Joe and we can lynch Carlito the next day. If we guessed wrong, the scum will kill Sonny that night. Even if they get another convert, they are almost certain to trade 2 for 1 here..

I know having a strategy based on scum actions is no good, but they'd have to do it for their own survival as well.

Unless the Cult converted the Doc.

[Frank Costello]

Yep, Tony & Frank. If Sonny is the Cult Leader and Cabot is a disciple, then getting a non-cult player may be worth it because the Cult can recruit again tonight. Cabot made this claim when Sonny had 4 votes against him. I wasn't even in the lead on votes. It was done to take the train away from Sonny or even Carlito.

Also, I'm pretty sure Cabot is Pac. We know how Pac plays. We know what kind of role reveal he did the Jets player.

Plus, Frank or anyone, do you guys have any idea what kind of role Cabot is claiming? He says he isn't the cop. But what is he? He has a random night action ability? Why did he put an action on himself Night 1 as he claimed?

He said he didn't get a result back on himself Night 1 and Carlito Night 2, but so happened to get a result back on me?

I'd really like to know what kind of role is this.

There's a lot of things not to like about his claim, but it's easy enough to vet it. Lynch you and find out. If he's lying, he's a cultist and the scum will have to NK him tonight for their own survival..

Since he didn't make the claim until the Carlito wagon picked up steam, it'd be safe to assume that Carlito is the cult leader (which is what I've thought for awhile) and we lynch him next.

The alternative is to lynch Joe, if he's a cultist, great. If not, we are forced to lynch you tomorrow which means we can't ev en begin to hunt cultists until 2 days from now. The reason why lynching you is preferrable is because the scum will take out Joe if he's lying. We have backup. If you're lying and Joe is innocent, we have no such backup..

And I have no idea what the role is that he's claiming, but this is a doggin game and he's known to be creative with his roles..

[Frank Costello]

Unless the Cult converted the Doc.

ANd with Joe sacrificng himself for the cult leader (which is your theory) why would they have the doctor protect anyone but the cult leader???

Also, again, it assumes that a) the cult succesfully converted every night they found our doctor and c) the doctor retains his powers after conversion, all of which I find to be unlikely at best..

[Lefty Ruggerio]

ANd with Joe sacrificng himself for the cult leader (which is your theory) why would they have the doctor protect anyone but the cult leader???

Also, again, it assumes that a) the cult succesfully converted every night they found our doctor and c) the doctor retains his powers after conversion, all of which I find to be unlikely at best..

As to your last point, the Doc would retain his powers after conversion. Here's from mafia scum:

Cults could also overpower the town if they recruit all of the Town's power roles.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Cult

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I completely get what all of you are saying regarding me and the whole potential cult conversion thing. I did consider that before I revealed, but I felt like with what I had as a known scum out there, I couldn't let anyone else go down. Is it possible some of these other guys are scum? Sure, but there's no room for slip-ups now and once Lefty flips as scum it gives us more to work on for those other players. Besides, it wasn't exactly an instance of me being able to save up results to reveal later because who knows if I'll ever even get another investigation result.

As far as my actions the other nights, I don't actually know what happened as doggin doesn't tell me. I guess it kind of makes sense as when you have other roles like doctor or something like that, you're not notified of what happened, you just see it based on the night's results. So in this case, the only time I actually got notified of anything is when it was an investigation. My actions went like this:

Night 1: I actually forgot I had a night role and didn't submit. If you actually look, you'll see Day 2 didn't start until after the night time limit had expired. That was my fault (oops). Since I wasn't allowed to choose no action, by default I targeted myself. I don't know what occurred.

Night 2: I targeted Lefty. At the end of the night I received a PM saying my random action that night was an investigation and I received that result.

Night 3: I targeted Carlito. Was given no info on what happened.

Are you saying when you do not submit a name, Doggin automatically applies the night action to you?

[Joe Cabot]

ANd with Joe sacrificng himself for the cult leader (which is your theory) why would they have the doctor protect anyone but the cult leader???

Also, again, it assumes that a) the cult succesfully converted every night they found our doctor and c) the doctor retains his powers after conversion, all of which I find to be unlikely at best..

Well if I'm lying then it sounds like you guys are getting a 2-for-1 trade on cult for townies. Outside of it being the dumbest play for me to make imaginable, it sounds like a damn good deal for the town. Let's be honest here, there's no play here that makes a damn bit of sense for me to make unless I'm telling the truth. I understand the ability sounds a bit strange (trust me, it did to me too) and I get some of the other concerns too, but I can't think of one scenario where making this move would make any sense for me unless I was town.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

There's a lot of things not to like about his claim, but it's easy enough to vet it. Lynch you and find out. If he's lying, he's a cultist and the scum will have to NK him tonight for their own survival..

And if he is right that Lefty is mafia. I do not believe that exonerates him. He may have this role, was converted, is now using it to lynch competing scum.

His defense of Carlito and Sonny is very suspect. I believe we should consider lynching one of them tomorrow.

[Joe Cabot]

Are you saying when you do not submit a name, Doggin automatically applies the night action to you?

Exactly. I was told I could not submit "no action" or target the dead, so when I forgot to submit a name night one, he told me he defaulted the action to me. I would guess that is done to prevent trying to circumvent the whole "no action" thing by not submitting a name.

[Frank Costello]

As to your last point, the Doc would retain his powers after conversion. Here's from mafia scum:

a) That doesn't say they retain the powers, it could also mean the town loses it's power roles.

Doggin very often does thigns differently then that site anyway..

[Vito Corleone]

There's a lot of things not to like about his claim, but it's easy enough to vet it. Lynch you and find out. If he's lying, he's a cultist and the scum will have to NK him tonight for their own survival..

Since he didn't make the claim until the Carlito wagon picked up steam, it'd be safe to assume that Carlito is the cult leader (which is what I've thought for awhile) and we lynch him next.

If Lefty flips scum -which is seeming likely- I don't necessarily see how that completely vets Cabot. Cabot could be cult whether Lefty is scum or not. Or Cabot could be scum getting his bonafides. Early in the game you were questioning one of these early outbursts as a possible scum teammate distancing maneuver, right? Was it Joe and Lefty, or Hill and Lefty, or Joe and Hill? I'd have to go back and look... But that's also a possibility here (Note that I say possibility. Innocent or cult would seem more likely). And if roled players keep their roles after conversion, he would seem very likely to be cult by tomorrow - with wifom reasoning as to why he wouldn't be.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Unvote: Lefty for the time being. I need more time to think about numbers and look back at Joe's posts. I may re-vote Lefty soon but we do have until Saturday.

[Vito Corleone]

Exactly. I was told I could not submit "no action" or target the dead, so when I forgot to submit a name night one, he told me he defaulted the action to me. I would guess that is done to prevent trying to circumvent the whole "no action" thing by not submitting a name.

Did you get a list or examples of what night actions you'd be able to make? Did you know that you'd get an investigation one night? Or is it completely blind?

I have to say, I was half expecting to find out that you NK'd either Nicky or Michael on night one.

[Joe Cabot]

Did you get a list or examples of what night actions you'd be able to make? Did you know that you'd get an investigation one night? Or is it completely blind?

I have to say, I was half expecting to find out that you NK'd either Nicky or Michael on night one.

He gave a few examples, but made it clear that anything could happen. I was given no indication of which ones would happen or in what order they would actually occur and he did say that the result would be random. The only reason I even knew I had an investigation that night is because obviously doggin had to give me the result. Other than that, he's left me in the dark about everything I've been doing.

[Vito Corleone]

He gave a few examples, but made it clear that anything could happen. I was given no indication of which ones would happen or in what order they would actually occur and he did say that the result would be random. The only reason I even knew I had an investigation that night is because obviously doggin had to give me the result. Other than that, he's left me in the dark about everything I've been doing.

Ah... So you could've been a doc, but protected someone who wasn't shot at? Or a tracker who followed someone who didn't go anywhere? I think I get it.

[Frank Costello]

If Lefty flips scum -which is seeming likely- I don't necessarily see how that completely vets Cabot. Cabot could be cult whether Lefty is scum or not. Or Cabot could be scum getting his bonafides.

I'm assumming if Lefty is scum, that that his scum buddies will kill Joe tonight. It'd mean he has some kind of power role and would be dangerous to them as cultist or townie.. (Our doctor wouldn't protect him for fear of converison)

Early in the game you were questioning one of these early outbursts as a possible scum teammate distancing maneuver, right? Was it Joe and Lefty, or Hill and Lefty, or Joe and Hill? I'd have to go back and look... But that's also a possibility here (Note that I say possibility. Innocent or cult would seem more likely). And if roled players keep their roles after conversion, he would seem very likely to be cult by tomorrow - with wifom reasoning as to why he wouldn't be.

It was Joe and Lefty, but I can't see the angle for them to be teammates now..

And yeah, I figure Joe is a deadman walking, the reason we can't lynch him though is cause if he's not lying, Lefty is scum and we'll have to lynch him tomorrow, meaning the cult escapes another day..

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Joe, can you explain why you said nothing about Lefty after receiving a guilty result on him.

And why did you choose Carlito last night. Assuming your random night actions include night kills, you should target those you find most suspicious. If you are willing to put them at risk.

You must have believed Carlito to be scummy enough to target. Why never saying anything about that, and deterring us from voting for him.

[Vito Corleone]

I'm assumming if Lefty is scum, that that his scum buddies will kill Joe tonight. It'd mean he has some kind of power role and would be dangerous to them as cultist or townie.. (Our doctor wouldn't protect him for fear of converison)

Wouldn't we want the doc to protect him if he has a potentially useful power role? And why wouldn't the doc protect him for fear of conversion? Fear that Cabot's already cult? Or fear that the doc himself would be open to conversion if he didn't protect himself (which I don't think would work, anyway).

I'm not following you.

It was Joe and Lefty, but I can't see the angle for them to be teammates now..

And yeah, I figure Joe is a deadman walking, the reason we can't lynch him though is cause if he's not lying, Lefty is scum and we'll have to lynch him tomorrow, meaning the cult escapes another day..

I get you here. I'm keeping my vote on Lefty.

I just don't see Joe as dead man walking - unless you're talking about lynching him next... ?

And if Lefty is scum, the Cult has to start looking like our bigger problem. I'm not sure how we're supposed to differentiate one brand of scummy behavior from another, but it would be nice to see at least one dead cult member between the next night & day phases.

[Lefty Ruggerio]

He gave a few examples, but made it clear that anything could happen. I was given no indication of which ones would happen or in what order they would actually occur and he did say that the result would be random. The only reason I even knew I had an investigation that night is because obviously doggin had to give me the result. Other than that, he's left me in the dark about everything I've been doing.

But how are you sure you don't have the powers of an insane or paranoid cop for the random night action?

You got an investigation result, how do you know that it's accurate?

[Frank Costello]

Wouldn't we want the doc to protect him if he has a potentially useful power role? And why wouldn't the doc protect him for fear of conversion? Fear that Cabot's already cult? Or fear that the doc himself would be open to conversion if he didn't protect himself (which I don't think would work, anyway).

I'm not following you.

Meaning, if Joe's not already cult, the cult will convert him tonight (because maybe his powers include outing cultists as well). I'm of the belief that the cult probably has 50/50 odds at conversion but the reality is that after tonight, even if Joe is telling the truth, we can almost never believe him again. So why doc protect when he's going to be useless at best tomorrow, at worst comprimised? The scum on the otherhand will be forced to kill him because whether he is a cultist or a townie, he may retain his powers AND he'll be motivated to out scum at every turn

I get you here. I'm keeping my vote on Lefty.

I just don't see Joe as dead man walking - unless you're talking about lynching him next... ?

And if Lefty is scum, the Cult has to start looking like our bigger problem. I'm not sure how we're supposed to differentiate one brand of scummy behavior from another, but it would be nice to see at least one dead cult member between the next night & day phases.

Exactly, which is why lynching Lefty is the safer play. If Joe is telling the truth and we lynch him, now we have to lynch Lefty tomorrow, meaning we postpone for another day targetting cultists..

As far as finding them, we just look for scummy behavior that doesn't include any NK analysis. Also, since cultists start out as innocent and later get converted, a change in play style would be a good thing to pick up on..

[Doggin94it]

Vote Count

Lefty Ruggerio (5) - Frank Costello, Joe Cabot, Sonny LoSpecchio, Fredo Corleone, Vito Corleone

Sonny LoSpecchio (4) - Lefty Ruggerio, Marcellus Wallace, Tony Soprano, Jimmy Conway

Carlito Brigante (1) - Ace Rothstein

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch

[Marcellus Wallace]

Sorry, just playing catch up...I have had a busy morning.

Alright, I dont have too many more thoughts to add that hasnt been said. I am not 100% sold on Joe's reveal, but either way it makes sense to lynch Lefty for reasons stated by many since the reveal.

I was torn between him and Sonny earlier and had voted for Sonny. But Lefty is obviously a smart player and if Joe is right, he is dangerous. I think he is scum. I think he acted a fool on day 1 and his team told him to tone it down and he has been playing squeaky clean. However, I think his typo of trying to lynch townies, wasnt an accident. Could be the old subconscious thingy.

As I stated earlier I think we have scum/cult in Lefty or Sonny. And it sounds like we have a confirmed scum in Lefty.

Unvote

Vote: Lefty

[Lefty Ruggerio]

I was torn between him and Sonny earlier and had voted for Sonny. But Lefty is obviously a smart player and if Joe is right, he is dangerous. I think he is scum. I think he acted a fool on day 1 and his team told him to tone it down and he has been playing squeaky clean. However, I think his typo of trying to lynch townies, wasnt an accident. Could be the old subconscious thingy.

FYI, there was no "typo" of trying to lynch townies. I wrote that it was best to lynch either town or cult, and Virgil poked fun at that by saying the opposite, that is, he thought we were looking to lynch town.