New York Jets Mafia Game Thread

[Dan.]

If I'm a roleless townie, the options are thus:

1--You lynch me now, and a vigilante will look else where (probably one of you, slats, CTM, and Pac).

2--You lynch me now, no vigilante, but theres a serial killer. Has no impact if you lynch me now or not, you get no info.

3--You lynch someone else, theres a vigilante, he'll most likely kill me tonight.

4--You lynch someone else, theres a SK, he'll kill someone else and let you come after me, since I'd appear as the SK or vigilante, having killed most likely another innocent.

You realize all of the options you're presenting have you dead tonight or tomorrow (game time)? So which of these options, if you had to choose, seems the best to you?

[CTM]

Wow. So not only did you suspect she was innocent, but you knew she was a roleless townie? Interesting. Also interesting that you were just progressing the game with JB being no great loss, but that the people who voted for her earlier had some sort of scummy plot in mind.

Sigh.. check the post history. She was at L-2, we gave her a chance to defend or ROLECLAIM. She came back and didn't roleclaim and I made a post commenting that I feel safe in assuming she doesn't have a power role..

No one was acting scummier than JB on day one. The fact that that's the way she always acts should not be a valid deflection. She acted that way in the last game and she was scum. Sucks that she was innocent this time around, but she was going to be a distraction for as long as she lasted.

That's an interesting theory, but I can't say it applies well to me here in my second game. I wasn't looking to move a train with my vote there. When I placed it, I specifically did so to get her to start contributing. Once she started contributing, her bahavior got scummier. So then I started to get more aggressive about it.

Being wrong about a townie on day one is incriminating on one hand, but on the other it's not incriminating to be wrong about one on day two? Little inconsistent, no?

Not at all. As I've stated, I'm not suspicious of you because you were wrong, I'm suspicious because they way you approached moving her train along. There's 6 other people on that train, including myself, who I'm not suspicious of at the moment.

[CTM]

I also thought I agreed on JB ... and you ... with JVoR.

It's honestly pretty frustrating that CTM keeps linking me with you because it makes it really difficult for me to get a read on you. It would be easier if I thought CTM's rationale actually made sense, because then it would be obvious - if it's one of us, I know I'm innocent, so you must be scum. Unfortunately, I see the holes in his argument, so I can't tell if you're scum, deliberately trying to say similar things as me, or if you're innocent and having the same reaction as me because we're both in the same boat.

CTM is making it impossible for me to figure you out, so if you are scum, you should thank him.

I'm not linking, I think one of the other is more likely then both..

All I'm saying is that I didn't like the way you three voted and pushed for Jets babe.

To clarify, here's my current suspicions and why (in alpha order)

1) AVM - Chang in play style, jvor voting him and pushing him dat 1.

2) Dan X - continued redirection of day 1 vote to Jets babe, as pointed out by EY as well.

3) Slats - Change of play style as Jif and I both pointed out, subtle reinforcement of need to vote Jets babe day 1. Also defended by JVOR at expense of AVM

4) SMC - hesitancy to hammer jets babe is different MO from him

Dan X is the only guy whose case I'm on solely due to the Jets Babe train...

[Dan.]

(I've long espoused the theory that scum tend to vote around the 1/3 markers on an innocent train as those votes pack a punch in progressing the train)

I'd actually like to hear more about this theory. The last game, Doggin made a comment about certain votes giving momentum more than others, but it was over my head at the time. I'm a little fuzzy on what you mean by the 1/3 markers. Do you mean votes # 1, 3 (or 4), 6 (or 7), and 9?

It's hard for me to compare this to the last game with all the hullabaloo going on there, and we don't know yet how tame/crazy this game might be, but in the first vote (Irish), the scum who cast votes were #1 (EY) and #5 (JVoR), and in the Norway vote, it was actually exactly the same, with EY at 1 and JVoR at 5.

[AVM]

You realize all of the options you're presenting have you dead tonight or tomorrow (game time)? So which of these options, if you had to choose, seems the best to you?

The option that keeps me alive longest lol, jk

As with last game, I've sort of come to accept the fact that I'm going to die pretty soon. At this point I'm just trying to get as much info out there as possible, but outside of Pac and CTM I don't really have anything to go off of, and both of those can be written off as spite votes...so eh.

I don't know--it probably makes a lot of sense to kill me off now and find out if I'm the Vig or SK from your shoes. However, if I'm not, then a Vig(if he exists) goes after someone who's got a high chance to hit an innocent, plus the scum will get an innocent. And obviously the scum will leave off the rest of the suspects right now, as to allow another lynching of an innocent. If it's an SK, he wouldn't have off'd me regardless, as he'd kill an innocent and let the town lynch me for him.

[AVM]

I'm not linking, I think one of the other is more likely then both..

All I'm saying is that I didn't like the way you three voted and pushed for Jets babe.

To clarify, here's my current suspicions and why (in alpha order)

1) AVM - Chang in play style, jvor voting him and pushing him dat 1.

2) Dan X - continued redirection of day 1 vote to Jets babe, as pointed out by EY as well.

3) Slats - Change of play style as Jif and I both pointed out, subtle reinforcement of need to vote Jets babe day 1. Also defended by JVOR at expense of AVM

4) SMC - hesitancy to hammer jets babe is different MO from him

Dan X is the only guy whose case I'm on solely due to the Jets Babe train...

This is where I have to disagree. I cast the initial vote and let her talk. Then said she wasn't convincing. She made the spite-vote, which I then posted again didn't convince me to change my mind. Lastly, when she didn't respond to EY's question, I bumped it and said I wanted an answer. That honestly was about it. Remember what I got slack for in the beginning (again, from JvoR as you guys have pointed out)...not posting enough serious posts, all jokes. What I did isn't exactly "pushing" for JB's death, IMO.

[Dan.]

Also, Sharrow is pretty consistently keeping quiet every day ... I thought during the last game he was usually on at night, making fairly long posts, whereas he's had a few excuses for his absences this game but hasn't really made substantial posts to make up for it. I don't know if it makes sense for him to be even less chatty as a townie than as scum. At any rate, I think it's pretty crazy for people to have fewer posts than Bleedin'. (JiF and Doggin I know gave their reasons and should be more talkative in coming days.) Woody is the other person, who has been quiet (as others have noted) but seemed to be a bit more talkative tonight at least.

[AVM]

Also, Sharrow is pretty consistently keeping quiet every day ... I thought during the last game he was usually on at night, making fairly long posts, whereas he's had a few excuses for his absences this game but hasn't really made substantial posts to make up for it. I don't know if it makes sense for him to be even less chatty as a townie than as scum. At any rate, I think it's pretty crazy for people to have fewer posts than Bleedin'. (JiF and Doggin I know gave their reasons and should be more talkative in coming days.) Woody is the other person, who has been quiet (as others have noted) but seemed to be a bit more talkative tonight at least.

JiF is suspended, so unless he becomes unsuspended somehow, he can't post

[AVM]

Too add, if CTM's long exposed the theory that they vote at the 1/3rd mark wouldn't he then be more inclined to NOT vote anywhere in the middle, as he'd naturally feel like he'd draw attention to himself. As in he'd vote late (JB) and early (myself). Also deflecting by saying he wanted to move the game along with JB, and encouraging voting to get one of his "big 3" out quickly.

Just a little bump so it doesn't get lost.

[Dan.]

This is where I have to disagree. I cast the initial vote and let her talk. Then said she wasn't convincing. She made the spite-vote, which I then posted again didn't convince me to change my mind. Lastly, when she didn't respond to EY's question, I bumped it and said I wanted an answer. That honestly was about it. Remember what I got slack for in the beginning (again, from JvoR as you guys have pointed out)...not posting enough serious posts, all jokes. What I did isn't exactly "pushing" for JB's death, IMO.

Don't even bother ... CTM uses the words "pushing" and "passive" for people he imagines seem suspicious. If other people act the exact same way but CTM thinks they're innocent for now, then that same behavior is okay and doesn't count as "passive pushing".

[CTM]

I'd actually like to hear more about this theory. The last game, Doggin made a comment about certain votes giving momentum more than others, but it was over my head at the time. I'm a little fuzzy on what you mean by the 1/3 markers. Do you mean votes # 1, 3 (or 4), 6 (or 7), and 9?

It's hard for me to compare this to the last game with all the hullabaloo going on there, and we don't know yet how tame/crazy this game might be, but in the first vote (Irish), the scum who cast votes were #1 (EY) and #5 (JVoR), and in the Norway vote, it was actually exactly the same, with EY at 1 and JVoR at 5.

Yes, I posted a longer explanation over at JI, but essentially the idea is that the 1/3 and 2/3 votes are the ones that give a train psychological momentum . With 9 votes to lynch, a train of 2 isn't a train at all. A train with a third vote, specifically if after the second vote suddenly has a little momentum. From there, the scum needs 1 or two townies to be compelled, and they can plop down the 5th or sixth vote putting the train at L-3 or so and suddennly the liklihood of an impatient townie hammering is available. If not, they can themselves cast vote 7 or 8 and by that time there's a great chance of either 1) townie self vote 2) townie power role reveal or 3) another townie just wanting to end the game drops the hammer.

None of these votes are commital (they didn't start the train, they didn't hammer) but all of them are spread out to move trains past psychological hurdles.. vote # 3 makes the train official and vote 6 makes it almost over. Lastly, many scum prefer not to vote for innocents at all, with this method, they can sit around and wait to see if there's a need to vote for an innocent (maybe the town will do it themselves) and if not, they can prod the town by creating train momentum..

to contrast, imagine the impact of the scum voting 1,2,3 and shooting their wad right out of the gate. It's not as powerful and cripples them moving forward. Voting 7,8,9 might be more powerful, but it's also more suspicious

[CTM]

Don't even bother ... CTM uses the words "pushing" and "passive" for people he imagines seem suspicious. If other people act the exact same way but CTM thinks they're innocent for now, then that same behavior is okay and doesn't count as "passive pushing".

bulloney

my sole reason of JVOR and Dan X suspicion was the passive pushing. Doesn't match what you are saying at all..

[AVM]

Don't even bother ... CTM uses the words "pushing" and "passive" for people he imagines seem suspicious. If other people act the exact same way but CTM thinks they're innocent for now, then that same behavior is okay and doesn't count as "passive pushing".

You're starting to sell me, but Pac's quietness has me a little more concerned. As in if they were together, Pac's the more important to keep alive

[CTM]

This is where I have to disagree. I cast the initial vote and let her talk. Then said she wasn't convincing. She made the spite-vote, which I then posted again didn't convince me to change my mind. Lastly, when she didn't respond to EY's question, I bumped it and said I wanted an answer. That honestly was about it. Remember what I got slack for in the beginning (again, from JvoR as you guys have pointed out)...not posting enough serious posts, all jokes. What I did isn't exactly "pushing" for JB's death, IMO.

You weren't one of the three I was referencing My main suspicion of you is that Jvor was pushing you

[AVM]

You weren't one of the three I was referencing My main suspicion of you is that Jvor was pushing you

Oh? I've just seen you lot the three of us (Dan, slats, myself) together for most of the day, lol

[Dan.]

JiF is suspended, so unless he becomes unsuspended somehow, he can't post

Yep, I was referencing my earlier list of people and their excuses ... and pulled an AVM myself, haha. I guess I have to stop picking on you for the Crusher mistake. ****.

[AVM]

Yep, I was referencing my earlier list of people and their excuses ... and pulled an AVM myself, haha. I guess I have to stop picking on you for the Crusher mistake. ****.

All is forgiven, just as long as you don't start to claim you're more awesome than me. Go there, and I may put on that robocop halloween costume!

[Dan.]

bulloney

my sole reason of JVOR and Dan X suspicion was the passive pushing. Doesn't match what you are saying at all..

And today? I assume you're suspicious of anyone "passively pushing" anyone else right now (i.e. actually asking questions and discussing their suspicions)? In which case, people like Norway and Sharrow must be really far down your list.

Of course it's more suspicious to raise valid concerns about someone exhibiting scummy behavior than to jump aboard a train without explanation.

And you somehow think it's more valid for you to passively push me, while also claiming that even if all four of us are innocent, it doesn't make you scum.

[AVM]

And today? I assume you're suspicious of anyone "passively pushing" anyone else right now (i.e. actually asking questions and discussing their suspicions)? In which case, people like Norway and Sharrow must be really far down your list.

Of course it's more suspicious to raise valid concerns about someone exhibiting scummy behavior than to jump aboard a train without explanation.

And you somehow think it's more valid for you to passively push me, while also claiming that even if all four of us are innocent, it doesn't make you scum.

Well too be fair, it doesn't make him scum. Just like visiting a male strip club doesn't make a guy gay...

[Dan.]

Will you stop with this crapola..

here's the deal, which I'm sure you know, even if I'm wrong about all 4 of you, it still doesn't make me scum. It's only day 2.

Quoting this for the record. Stop leading such a hypocritically passive crusade against us and denying what you're doing. I'd really have no problem with you being suspicious of me if you could just own up and say, "I think Dan X is scum because he said Jets Babe was acting scummy, but she flipped innocent." The you-voted-for-an-innocent argument is really all you have against me. It's annoying when you try to claim something about the way I so subtly made my argument against JB without "committing" to her scumminess the way you're supposedly committing to mine.

You know what, I'd even have less of a problem with it if you said, "I know I'm being a complete hypocrite, but from my perspective it's okay for me to do the same thing I'm accusing these people of doing, since I know myself to be innocent. I also recognize I'm acting in a completely biased manner, but I can't help it because my gut says these people are guilty and it's really hard for me to get around that."

[CTM]

And today? I assume you're suspicious of anyone "passively pushing" anyone else right now (i.e. actually asking questions and discussing their suspicions)? In which case, people like Norway and Sharrow must be really far down your list.

Of course it's more suspicious to raise valid concerns about someone exhibiting scummy behavior than to jump aboard a train without explanation.

And you somehow think it's more valid for you to passively push me, while also claiming that even if all four of us are innocent, it doesn't make you scum.

But I'm not passively pushing you. I think your day 1 actions were scummy. Period. 95% of the discussion I'm having in regards to you is because you keep challenging me on it. On day 1, you kept bringing up Jets Babe even though she was nowhere to be found. I'm sure you see the difference.

Further, my argument has been AGAINST voting you today as you are too valuable to the town if innocent. Compare and Contrast that with your constant day 1 reminders of how Jets Babe was essentially worthless even if innocent anytime the topic of conversation veered off of Jets Babe.

As far as today you seem more interested in a sword fight over semantics, which I don't have a strong opinion on other then it's your reaction to being pressured. You are trying to turn my own case around on me.

[CTM]

Quoting this for the record. Stop leading such a hypocritically passive crusade against us and denying what you're doing. I'd really have no problem with you being suspicious of me if you could just own up and say, "I think Dan X is scum because he said Jets Babe was acting scummy, but she flipped innocent." The you-voted-for-an-innocent argument is really all you have against me. It's annoying when you try to claim something about the way I so subtly made my argument against JB without "committing" to her scumminess the way you're supposedly committing to mine.

You know what, I'd even have less of a problem with it if you said, "I know I'm being a complete hypocrite, but from my perspective it's okay for me to do the same thing I'm accusing these people of doing, since I know myself to be innocent. I also recognize I'm acting in a completely biased manner, but I can't help it because my gut says these people are guilty and it's really hard for me to get around that."

Oy!

How do you explain EY's post and your hot mess of a post in response.

Hey guys...

Right now, as much as it pains me to do this, unvote vic. I'm willing to revote him if people think he should be punished for the moobs picture.

For my vote, it's either Jets Babe or Dan X right now.

Jets Babe for everyone's aforementioned reasons, and Dan X for working so to keep her in the conversation. He's being subtle about it, but he continuously wants to talk about Jets Babe, Jets Babe, Jets Babe. Maybe he's a horny 20 year old, but maybe he's the one who wants to get things towards the night phase an take out an erratic target, who, no one will think twice about if lynched, because, 'she had it coming'.

The slats argument is interesting, but I'm not ready to go that route just yet.

Unfortunately for you, both of those options are wrong.

#1 ("horny 20 year old"): Right decade at least, so I'll give you that much. But as one of the few people who didn't ask JB for topless pics, if in your book "trying to play the game" = "arousal", you and I think about the world very differently. In fact, as I said last night, I'd feel a lot better about her if she would just say, "Shut the **** up, you *******s," rather than ignoring things like that. Most of the women I know wouldn't take that, joke or no joke.

#2 (scum aiming for an easy target): Why would I waste my time putting myself out there against her, when she already has 7 votes, if I knew she would turn up innocent? Absolutely no sense to that. If I were scum, wouldn't my work be pretty much done already? And as I've already said, she would be the type of townie I would let slide by in the beginning, knowing I wouldn't have to worry much about her since the town would most likely lynch her at some point.

As for "continuously" wanting to talk about her ... the game has been slow today, and I felt like there was the most to say about her, as she's said the scummiest things so far. Come on, she's two votes away from being lynched. She's obviously at the forefront. FTR, I also talked about Slats and looked back at his posts, but felt there just wasn't enough to go on right now. And I questioned SMC, but had the same problem. There just isn't that much else interesting happening.

It also aggravates me immensely that people keep saying she always acts scummy, as if that answers everything. If she acts scummy as a townie, doesn't that suck for the town? Sorry if this sounds overly brutal, but I think she needs to realize that acting scummy will get her lynched. If she's ever going to be a fellow townie of mine in the future, I would like to have a teammate who contributes logically and won't say unnecessarily shady things that hurt the town by getting herself lynched. I don't think it's too much to ask for her to pay attention to what she posts and try not to contradict herself. And it baffled me that she complained about not making it past the first day as if we're all out to get her, yet did absolutely nothing to help the situation herself.

Lastly, I apologize if I'm seeming pushier than usual. I've had a ****ty past couple of days, and I've been trying not to let that come across here, but I'm aware that's probably not working as well as I'd like. Heh, I should probably go try spending 5 hours at the gym, a la JVoR.

[Sharrow]

Quoting this for the record. Stop leading such a hypocritically passive crusade against us and denying what you're doing. I'd really have no problem with you being suspicious of me if you could just own up and say, "I think Dan X is scum because he said Jets Babe was acting scummy, but she flipped innocent." The you-voted-for-an-innocent argument is really all you have against me. It's annoying when you try to claim something about the way I so subtly made my argument against JB without "committing" to her scumminess the way you're supposedly committing to mine.

You know what, I'd even have less of a problem with it if you said, "I know I'm being a complete hypocrite, but from my perspective it's okay for me to do the same thing I'm accusing these people of doing, since I know myself to be innocent. I also recognize I'm acting in a completely biased manner, but I can't help it because my gut says these people are guilty and it's really hard for me to get around that."

Well, the difference is that JB was an innocent that was lynched. You guys are so far still alive. If you are lynched and turn innocent, then maybe the comparison will be better. Slats is a lot more suspicious to me though.

[Dan.]

But I'm not passively pushing you. I think your day 1 actions were scummy. Period. 95% of the discussion I'm having in regards to you is because you keep challenging me on it. On day 1, you kept bringing up Jets Babe even though she was nowhere to be found. I'm sure you see the difference.

Further, my argument has been AGAINST voting you today as you are too valuable to the town if innocent. Compare and Contrast that with your constant day 1 reminders of how Jets Babe was essentially worthless even if innocent anytime the topic of conversation veered off of Jets Babe.

As far as today you seem more interested in a sword fight over semantics, which I don't have a strong opinion on other then it's your reaction to being pressured. You are trying to turn my own case around on me.

Do you stand by that statement? If so, I have a lot of posts to pull up for you. Try and pretend that I kept bringing this up, all on my own, when the conversation (what conversation?) began heading in other directions (please, who else was anyone really talking about?) ...

The reason I seemed more talkative than other people was because for god knows what reason, the game had slowed to a crawl. I was bored. She was the only person blatantly acting scummy.

[AVM]

Heading to bed--see you guys tomorrow

[Dan.]

Oy!

How do you explain EY's post and your hot mess of a post in response.

What in particular do you need explained here?

[Dan.]

Well, the difference is that JB was an innocent that was lynched. You guys are so far still alive. If you are lynched and turn innocent, then maybe the comparison will be better. Slats is a lot more suspicious to me though.

Right, which is why for me, the comparison is so obvious. Because I know I'm innocent, and I can't believe CTM is doing the exact same thing to me while pretending he's not.

I suppose the comparison makes less sense for any non-scum. That's fair. It's what sort of hints towards CTM's innocence to me, since I know he'd look like an ass for doing it this way when he could have just night killed me.

[CTM]

Do you stand by that statement? If so, I have a lot of posts to pull up for you. Try and pretend that I kept bringing this up, all on my own, when the conversation (what conversation?) began heading in other directions (please, who else was anyone really talking about?) ...

The reason I seemed more talkative than other people was because for god knows what reason, the game had slowed to a crawl. I was bored. She was the only person blatantly acting scummy.

No, cause that was my perception at the time and then EY remarked on the same thing

Here's 1 example though:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1237235&postcount=690

Everyone keeps saying this, but this reasoning bothers me. I don't think JB should be given a free pass just because she always acts scummy. I think if you're innocent, it's your responsibility to not act scummy. As far as I can tell, scummy behavior as an innocent only serves as a great cover when you're actually scum, but doesn't help the town at all if you're innocent. Definitely not right from the start, at least. (As JiF explained his behavior at the end of the last game as an attempt to keep himself from getting NKed that night.) I don't see the point of acting this way from the beginning, though, and I think we certainly need to pay attention to people who are able to get away with scummy behavior simply because they act scummy no matter what. For this reason, I see her as a threat.

In response to Jif wanting to talk about Slats or AVM instead, you push it back towards Jets Babe. Again, the crux of you argument being "she's a threat cause she always seems scummy regardless of alignment" Not I "think she's the most likely candidate as scum" but "she's a threat to the town cause she always seems scummy"

How the F is she a threat to the town is she always seems scummy and therefore will never be in the position to lead the town in the wrong direction..

[CTM]

What in particular do you need explained here?

That a) clearly this isn't a figment of my imagination as another poster commented on it as well. and why someone who is very articulate would post that smiley ridden nonsense in response.

[CTM]

btw.. you can have the last response. I'm tapping out and if we are both still alive in a few days we can resume then. I'm not near enough convinced you are scum to risk a mislynch on a guy whose willing to go through 1000's of posts to provide fodder for analysis..

It's day 2, assuming there's 3 scum and 12 non CTM townies left, that means a dart throw gives you a 25% chance of being scum. You're one of my favorites, but that only means you are greater the 25% in my book, which still means there's a good chance I'm wrong...

[Dan.]

No, cause that was my perception at the time and then EY remarked on the same thing

Here's 1 example though:

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1237235&postcount=690

In response to Jif wanting to talk about Slats or AVM instead, you push it back towards Jets Babe. Again, the crux of you argument being "she's a threat cause she always seems scummy regardless of alignment" Not I "think she's the most likely candidate as scum" but "she's a threat to the town cause she always seems scummy"

How the F is she a threat to the town is she always seems scummy and therefore will never be in the position to lead the town in the wrong direction..

Because this argument really got on my nerves! What do you mean, how is she a threat to the town? A townie who acts like scum means we're pretty much starting out with one less townie. She tricked me into thinking she was scum, she tricked a lot of other people too ... getting your fellow townies to lynch you (another townie) is harmful to the town, yes? And she clearly succeeded in distracting us from actual scum.

[Dan.]

That a) clearly this isn't a figment of my imagination as another poster commented on it as well. and why someone who is very articulate would post that smiley ridden nonsense in response.

Whatever, I had an emotional couple of days, what can I say? Smileys soothe my anguished nerves.

[Sharrow]

Because this argument really got on my nerves! What do you mean, how is she a threat to the town? A townie who acts like scum means we're pretty much starting out with one less townie. She tricked me into thinking she was scum, she tricked a lot of other people too ... getting your fellow townies to lynch you (another townie) is harmful to the town, yes? And she clearly succeeded in distracting us from actual scum.

I think both of you are right in a way, and it's probably just a difference of opinion. It's most likely true that eventually she would be lynched. Since that's the case, why not lynch her day 1 and get it out of the way, then you've got more to work with on day 2 and who knows, you might get lucky and she'll turn up scum? Also, I'm not quite sure, but I'd think that the later we get in the game, the more detrimental innocent lynches become. On the other hand, she's already on everyone's radar and no one really trusts her, so she's only a distraction like you say. And maybe if you let her live, then when she's lynched you might get even more information. Especially if she's scum, in which case you might be able to figure out her buddies based on her interactions/votes.

[JMJ]

4) SMC - hesitancy to hammer jets babe

Fag.

Dan X is the only guy whose case I'm on solely due to the Jets Babe train...

Now THAT is what I'm talking about!

[Sharrow]

I'd say that I'm obviously more of a passive player than most of you guys. I'm still finding it tough to post a lot, and I apologize for not making 5 or 6 posts about those glorious moobs earlier in the game. I did get a couple in for Robocop though.

Speaking of ROBOCOP, I don't think there is much at all to the whole thing, tbh. It did seem like a strange idea, but I don't see what good/harm it would do to put an idea like that into our heads. Unless somebody can come up with a plausible reason for why he would do that, then I'd rather we lynch someone else. I'm satisfied with the lineup right now (AVM, SMC, Dan X, Pac, Slats, Vicious) as far as discussion is concerned.

AVM - At this point, I don't get the feeling that he's scum, but he's also high on my list as a potential serial killer/vigilante and has acted strangely. That said, I'm not too sure of him being the vig/sk yet so I'm not high on lynching him today.

SMC - I'm not seeing the robocop angle, so I'm not ready to lynch him either. But like I said, it was still a strange idea so I'm keeping an open mind on him.

Dan X - A lot of late pushing of the JB train, some in response to other posters mentioning her. Setting up a defense of voting for an innocent before she's even dead, trying to convince others to complete the train, or just innocent prodding? Neither his "scum wouldn't want to lynch JB on the first day" nor his "why would scum push her at 7 votes" ideas sit well with me. Based on JVOR's actions, scum did both. I remember Doggin trying to play that hand last game (I wouldn't do it if I were scum). He's putting himself out there a lot though, even before he got heat on himself unlike slats, who seemed to only show up promptly after he was first pressured. But I really like the work he's put in so far; even if he's scum and we let him live, it could tell us a lot down the road. If he's not then he's obviously shown himself to be a quality asset.

Pac - has seemed really strange to me and hasn't really added a whole lot to the game. He's on my list mostly for that and for trying to get Vicious to reveal any role he might have with relatively few votes on him though.

Vicious - acted strangely throughout that whole over-the-top blowup ordeal. The train on JB might even have been pushed along to help draw heat away from him considering he was the 2nd option at the time. I'd like to hear more from Doggin about what he thinks we might learn if we lynch him.

Slats - the rest weren't in any particular order, but Slats is at the top of my list. He just seems more and more scummy to me. Maybe it's just his increasing defensiveness or only bad coincidences or something. Anyway, he showed the same pushing that Dan and JVOR were doing on JB. Again, setting up a defense of voting for an innocent before she's even dead, trying to convince others to complete the train, or just innocent prodding? Also, his "you're in trouble if you lynch me" threats don't sit well with me either; he said that at least 3 times to CTM. His reasoning in this post about what EY knows was another tactic Doggin used last game when he was scum, I don't know if that's anything but it's worth mentioning. He's tried a couple times to buddy up and align himself with Dan, (1 and 2) while Dan hasn't returned the sentiment. I tried to do that with JiF at the end of last game, but he didn't take the bait. It also seems like he has scrambled a little bit to cast doubt on as many players as he possibly can. He pointed suspiciously to at least 9 of the other 12 players (Vic, Dan, EY, CTM, Doggin, Sharrow, Woody, Pac, AVM) in the last day (Norway, Jets Things, and SMC being the 3 he didn't mention), which is another thing I tried to do at the end of the last game. The only thing holding me back from voting for him is the idea that it's a scum setup and I don't think holding off on lynching him hurts us.

I'm going to vote:Pac and wait to hear from Doggin elaborating on what he thinks we will learn if Vic shows up innocent vs what we will learn if he shows up guilty.