Speed Kills: How draft picks could get "burned" by 40 times at combine.

[Villain The Foe]

I'm not sure that I follow what you're saying.    When you measure to the .01 and you are only running 40 yards there is a huge emphasis on the start.   in fact, the slower guy could have a better time if he has a better start.  

 

the best way to do it would be to run 50 yards but only time the last 40.    this would give everyone a chance to get to full speed before the clock started.   

 

People get so caught up in these 40 times and they are largely irrelevant when it comes to predicting success in the NFL.    The Jets passed on a real WR to take Stephen Hill and his 4.36 40-yard dash.    I would gladly take ALshon Jeffrey's 4.49 any day of the week over the colossal pile of Suck that is Stephen HIll.  

 

My guess is that if the Jets never went to the combine  or looked at 40 times they would have taken Jeffrey over Hill.   Instead, Tanny got a hard-on for HIll's speed when the game tape didn't show an NFL player.  

Thats been my point for 2 years. Why in the world would you trade up and draft a developmental WR who caught a handful of passes in his collegiate career, and in those handful was inconsistent simply because he ran as sub 4.40. When you got a guy who outside of weight issues in his last year of college was arguably the best WR coming out of college and without a doubt the best hands in the draft class and ran a 4.48 while not entirely healthy at the combine? 

 

What really killed me wasnt even that the Jets didnt draft him persay, but that they traded up and actually drafted another WR over Jeffery. I was in a bar in Manhattan and was completely blown away to see them actually pick a wideout NOT Jeffery. I mean just completely flabbergasted. I seriously was sitting in my seat for about 10 minutes just shaking my head in disbelief. Im surprised that the NFL network hasnt shed light on that drafting blunder. I guess in about 10 years it will. 

 

And your last statement most of all is what made the situation so shocking. Nothing I seen from Hill at GT made me feel like this guy was a step away from being a beast in the league. All he did was run very very very fast, and even with that he never "flowed" on the football field. I seriously just couldnt wrap my head around that decision. 

 

After writing this I realize that Im still a bit pissed at the Jets behind this lol. 

[LionelRichie]

so he worked for Decision Lens.

 

you know them or you just googled it?  

[Villain The Foe]

That's also what make the process fun LR, that it's not an exact science, you have to take the guys production, skill set, intelligence, speed (40), explosion (vert/broad), quickness/agility (3 cone, shuttle), strength (bench), work ethic, leadership all into consideration. How do you weight that scale sorta thing...

I would look at all those exercises or drills except the 40. You know what I look at on tape? Can and how does a WR get behind a defense, and what happens if he does get behind a defense. 

 

40 times can add what's not there on a football field, meaning that a guy who is lighting fast gets the nod because of that speed, but what you dont see is an actual WR on the football field, or at best a consistent one. 

 

Alshon Jeffery outran no one in college, he basically wanted the ball more and used his jumping, height and hands to his advantage. I literally seen Alshon Jeffery outjump 5 guys, one of them being a teammate the other 4 the defense, on a 51 yard hail mary pass. If you can do this then I can care less about a 40 time. Please keep in mind, this is "Fat" Alshon Jeffery at that. 

 

 

The Jets passed on Jeffery because Tanny fell in love with a 4.38 40 track star and not with a football player.  How the f**k tanny was able to convince these guys to do that I will never know. I really dont wanna know. Im just glad he lost his job. 

[joewillie78]

This statement doesn't seem true. Julio JOnes blazed a sub 4.4 and has been very successful. More than 5 years ago but ditto Calvin Johnson. 

How about AJ Green, dude is very fast. Not sub 4.4?

[Villain The Foe]

How about AJ Green, dude is very fast. Not sub 4.4?

4.5.

 

AJ Green is yet another example who gets incredible separation but runs a 4.5. 

 

The secret? Head fakes, body control and route running. he's fundamentally and technically sound. He's like the Tim Duncan of Wideouts. 

[joewillie78]

4.5.

 

AJ Green is yet another example who gets incredible separation but runs a 4.5. 

 

The secret? Head fakes, body control and route running. he's fundamentally and technically sound. He's like the Tim Duncan of Wideouts. 

Beating press coverage?

[Villain The Foe]

Beating press coverage?

The list goes on brother. 

The point is the 40 won't display any of what we mentioned. 

[#27TheDominator]

 

the best way to do it would be to run 50 yards but only time the last 40.    this would give everyone a chance to get to full speed before the clock started.   

 

 

That is the exact opposite of what they should do. The 40 is all acceleration and that is what football is about.  Top speed is overrated.  I am pretty sure they have 10 yard splits available and tape so they know and compare who is fast where.

[HessStation]

I would look at all those exercises or drills except the 40. You know what I look at on tape? Can and how does a WR get behind a defense, and what happens if he does get behind a defense.

40 times can add what's not there on a football field, meaning that a guy who is lighting fast gets the nod because of that speed, but what you dont see is an actual WR on the football field, or at best a consistent one.

Alshon Jeffery outran no one in college, he basically wanted the ball more and used his jumping, height and hands to his advantage. I literally seen Alshon Jeffery outjump 5 guys, one of them being a teammate the other 4 the defense, on a 51 yard hail mary pass. If you can do this then I can care less about a 40 time. Please keep in mind, this is "Fat" Alshon Jeffery at that.

The Jets passed on Jeffery because Tanny fell in love with a 4.38 40 track star and not with a football player. How the f**k tanny was able to convince these guys to do that I will never know. I really dont wanna know. Im just glad he lost his job.

Correct that there's more than one way to skin a cat. 40's also helped prove that Dwayne Jarrett couldn't play in the NFL, or that Demetrius Thomas could.

[HessStation]

AJ Green ran a 4.48.

[Villain The Foe]

Correct that there's more than one way to skin a cat. 40's also helped prove that Dwayne Jarrett couldn't play in the NFL, or that Demetrius Thomas could.

You can certainly take something away from the 40....A number.  What im saying is that there is nothing that you will take away from the 40 that will tell you if a guy could be good or bad in the league.  As for Dwayne Jarrett, he ran 40 similar to Larry Fitzgerald. The 40 told you nothing about Jarrett in the NFL, it simply told you a number.

[BroadwayJoe12]

You can certainly take something away from the 40....A number.  What im saying is that there is nothing that you will take away from the 40 that will tell you if a guy could be good or bad in the league.  As for Dwayne Jarrett, he ran 40 similar to Larry Fitzgerald. The 40 told you nothing about Jarrett in the NFL, it simply told you a number.

 

Jarret ran a 4.62 at his proday, whereas Fitzy ran a 4.48, that's a world of difference. 

[Villain The Foe]

AJ Green ran a 4.48.

wanna hear something crazy? 

 

 

AJ green gets CRAZY separation, and even when he doesnt he uses his athleticism and hands to win the match. When he gets behind the defense he is never caught. 

 

Jordan Matthews speed has been a concern for scouts, yet Matthews ran a faster 40 than Green at 4.46. 

 

On the other hand, Alshon Jeffery also ran a 4.48 40 and his game is based on boxing out the defender, out jumping or simply out hustling. It depends on how you use your speed. Some guys use it well, some use other facets of their game to get the job done. Some guys (Stephen Hill) Has all the speed but can only run a 9 route consistently yet cant consistently catch the deep ball. 

[HessStation]

You can certainly take something away from the 40....A number. What im saying is that there is nothing that you will take away from the 40 that will tell you if a guy could be good or bad in the league. As for Dwayne Jarrett, he ran 40 similar to Larry Fitzgerald. The 40 told you nothing about Jarrett in the NFL, it simply told you a number.

Yeah, bc 40s are only one part of the equation. You guys can act like they don't matter but they absolutely do and it's why the NFL and all it's teams and scouts and GMs and front offices pay so much attention to it.

[Villain The Foe]

Jarret ran a 4.62 at his proday, whereas Fitzy ran a 4.48, that's a world of difference. 

https://www.google.com/#q=larry+fitzgerald+40+time&spell=1

 

I got Fitz running a 4.63 official at the combine. Maybe he did better at his pro day, but im talking combine stats. I dont know what his pro day numbers were. 

[Villain The Foe]

Yeah, bc 40s are only one part of the equation. You guys can act like they don't matter but they absolutely do and it's why the NFL and all it's teams and scouts and GMs and front offices pay so much attention to it.

It didnt matter to Jerry Rice, and his 40 is one of the worst in this history of WR's on the professional level. Yet you will NEVER find a tape of Rice getting caught from behind. Good luck finding that. 

 

Bill Walsh seemed to agree with that as well. He put his reputation on the line even drafting Jerry Rice with that 40 time. He knew what he saw in Rice was a football player, and an elite one when he got the ball in his hands. 

 

the 40 shows what a guy can do running without a football or gear on. Jerry rice showed what he will do to you if you put on pads that particular sunday. 

[LionelRichie]

That is the exact opposite of what they should do. The 40 is all acceleration and that is what football is about.  Top speed is overrated.  I am pretty sure they have 10 yard splits available and tape so they know and compare who is fast where.

 

uh, no.   the 40 is not meant to measure quickness, they have other drills for that. 

[HessStation]

A much better argument for guys on the 40 thing is that it certainly isn't fair a guys speed is judged on one day w two tried. I can agree, there could be multiple reasons for a poor 40 other than that the guys just slow. Could just not have it that day.

But to say a 40 isn't a good indicator of a guys overall speed is retarded.

[HessStation]

It didnt matter to Jerry Rice, and his 40 is one of the worst in this history of WR's on the professional level. Yet you will NEVER find a tape of Rice getting caught from behind. Good luck finding that.

Bill Walsh seemed to agree with that as well. He put his reputation on the line even drafting Jerry Rice with that 40 time. He knew what he saw in Rice was a football player, and an elite one when he got the ball in his hands.

the 40 shows what a guy can do running without a football or gear on. Jerry rice showed what he will do to you if you put on pads that particular sunday.

Why are you getting all preachy. I don't know how to be more clear, I went out of my way to even break it all down, and you even quoted that post, that 40s aren't everything and that they don't tell you if a guy can play. Only whether they're fast or not.

Yes some guys also have game speed where they play at a different, heightened level on the field. There are always exceptions to the rule. Yeah yeah. 40 yard dash is still the best indicator of speed. If it wasn't, they'd be doing something else.

[Villain The Foe]

A much better argument for guys on the 40 thing is that it certainly isn't fair a guys speed is judged on one day w two tried. I can agree, there could be multiple reasons for a poor 40 other than that the guys just slow. Could just not have it that day.

But to say a 40 isn't a good indicator of a guys overall speed is retarded.

No one said that the 40 isnt a good indicator of a guys overall speed. Its the perfect indicator of a guys overall speed within that confinement. It tells me nothing about a guy on a football field with 21 other players. 

[Villain The Foe]

Why are you getting all preachy. I don't know how to be more clear, I went out of my way to even break it all down, and you even quoted that post, that 40s aren't everything and that they don't tell you if a guy can play. Only whether they're fast or not.

Yes some guys also have game speed where they play at a different, heightened level on the field. There are always exceptions to the rule. Yeah yeah. 40 yard dash is still the best indicator of speed. If it wasn't, they'd be doing something else.

Because I have nothing else better to do? 

[HessStation]

Deion Sanders ran 4.2s with pads on and was....wait for it...the fastest guy in the NFL. Legend is Bo Jackson ran a 4.1.

Stop trying to act like it doesn't matter.

[HessStation]

Because I have nothing else better to do?

It's cool. I'm saying it in jest.

[Villain The Foe]

Deion Sanders ran 4.2s with pads on and was....wait for it...the fastest guy in the NFL. Legend is Bo Jackson ran a 4.1.

Stop trying to act like it doesn't matter.

neither one of those guys ran an electronic controlled 40. they were all hand recorded. since the implementation of the laser at the combine the fastest recorded was 4.24. 

[HessStation]

No one said that the 40 isnt a good indicator of a guys overall speed. Its the perfect indicator of a guys overall speed within that confinement. It tells me nothing about a guy on a football field with 21 other players.

agreed, but it's still part of the equation. The fact that Landry ran a 4.75 or Sam ran a 4.91 definitely hurt their stock. Doesn't mean they can't play and still be productive though.

It also puts a stamp on a guy like Brandin Cooks, who we already know can run great routes, separate and catch.

[Villain The Foe]

agreed, but it's still part of the equation. The fact that Landry ran a 4.75 or Sam ran a 4.91 definitely hurt their stock. Doesn't mean they can't play and still be productive though.

It hurt their stock. Im not talking about stock. Im talking about what they do on the field. 

It hurt Alshon Jeffery's stock to be the best WR in football and be fat at the same time. Its ridiculous but true. 

 

All im saying is that the fact that it hurts stock is ridiculous. Michael Sam can rush the QB period. I dont care about a 4.91. 

 

EDIT: We're agreeing with one another. where we differ is our perception of the 40. 

[HessStation]

neither one of those guys ran an electronic controlled 40. they were all hand recorded. since the implementation of the laser at the combine the fastest recorded was 4.24.

Yes by Chris Johnson who's been an all pro and considered one of the fastest guys in the NFL.

[HessStation]

It hurt their stock. Im not talking about stock. Im talking about what they do on the field.

It hurt Alshon Jeffery's stock to be the best WR in football and be fat at the same time. Its ridiculous but true.

All im saying is that the fact that it hurts stock is ridiculous. Michael Sam can rush the QB period. I dont care about a 4.91.

EDIT: We're agreeing with one another. where we differ is our perception of the 40.

Yeah but what probably keeps Jeffries from being an all pro vs. one of the better WRs is his speed.

His other attributes make up for his speed a la Michael Irvin, maybe.

That's why when you asses a player, speed is a very real determining factor. If they don't have it they better have the strength and/or body control etc Boldin, etc Fitzgerald etc. to make up for it.

[Villain The Foe]

Yes by Chris Johnson who's been an all pro and considered one of the fastest guys in the NFL.

Yes. He's an all pro and happens to be one of the fastest guys in the NFL. Whats your point? And whatever that point is please apply it to Stephen Hill so we can have an All Pro WR okay? 

[Villain The Foe]

Yeah but what probably keeps Jeffries from being an all pro vs. one of the better WRs is his speed.

His other attributes make up for his speed a la Michael Irvin, maybe.

That's why when you asses a player, speed is a very real determining factor. If they don't have it they better have the strength and/or body control etc Boldin, etc Fitzgerald etc. to make up for it.

Fitzgerald is an all pro WR. lol.

[HessStation]

Fitzgerald is an all pro WR. lol.

Ad Michael Irvin is in the HOF.

Look at the All Pro team this year. All 4.4 guys or lower. Gordon said to be clocked at 4.37 who knows. Youre playing odds and odds go up when the WR has speed. Like already said multiple times always exceptions to the rule.

[Villain The Foe]

Ad Michael Irvin is in the HOF.

Look at the All Pro team this year. All 4.4 guys or lower. Gordon said to be clocked at 4.37 who knows. Your playing odds and odds go up when the WR has speed. Like already said multiple times always exceptions to the rule. But your odds go up when the guy has speed.

the odds go up when you have a WR who can first catch the ball, second have an understanding of the position and how to use his body. Speed is always good, even great to have, but only if you have these first two things. I can prove it. We have a WR right now who has track speed but can't catch the ball and doesnt have an understanding of the position and does not know how to use his body. How many times have we heard on the forums that Hill plays smaller than what he actually is? Its because he's not a WR. He was a fast guy who was put on a college team and caught a few deep balls. When you get to the NFL you're around the best of the best of the best in the world. You need fundamentals, smarts, technique, hands before you ever need speed and acceleration. 

[#27TheDominator]

https://www.google.com/#q=larry+fitzgerald+40+time&spell=1

 

I got Fitz running a 4.63 official at the combine. Maybe he did better at his pro day, but im talking combine stats. I dont know what his pro day numbers were. 

 

 

That number is flat wrong.  You are providing a google of a bunch of morons reposting sh*t they saw on bleacher report.  I dont' think he even ran at the combine.  I researched it a couple of weeks ago.  Even if it is correct, if a guy runs slow and then blows it up at his pro day, it may mean he was hurt or had a bad day. I he slugs it up again he is probably a stone like Jarrett.  Fitzgerald ran WAY better than that.  I believe he ran 4.47 at his pro day and did not run at the combine.  Fannation is not a good source and Jerry Rice's 4.71, but Walsh said he ran 4.59 and that was arguing that speed was overrated.

 

uh, no.   the 40 is not meant to measure quickness, they have other drills for that. 

 

Quickness and flat straight line acceleration are not the same and neither is top speed cruising.  40s are probably the best measure for the NFL.  The idea that speed is irrelevant is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

 

 

Ashlon Jeffrey did not go after Hill because he ran slow.  He ran well, but people were scared by his weight, attitude and questionable work ethic.  They were wrong, but so were plenty of more people gambling on slugs.

[HessStation]

That number is flat wrong. You are providing a google of a bunch of morons reposting sh*t they saw on bleacher report. I dont' think he even ran at the combine. I researched it a couple of weeks ago. Even if it is correct, if a guy runs slow and then blows it up at his pro day, it may mean he was hurt or had a bad day. I he slugs it up again he is probably a stone like Jarrett. Fitzgerald ran WAY better than that. I believe he ran 4.47 at his pro day and did not run at the combine. Fannation is not a good source and Jerry Rice's 4.71, but Walsh said he ran 4.59 and that was arguing that speed was overrated.

Quickness and flat straight line acceleration are not the same and neither is top speed cruising. 40s are probably the best measure for the NFL. The idea that speed is irrelevant is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

Ashlon Jeffrey did not go after Hill because he ran slow. He ran well, but people were scared by his weight, attitude and questionable work ethic. They were wrong, but so were plenty of more people gambling on slugs.

You just ninja'd me on fitz's 4.47 pro day. Glad I looked first.

korusu!!!!!!

[Villain The Foe]

That number is flat wrong.  You are providing a google of a bunch of morons reposting sh*t they saw on bleacher report.  I dont' think he even ran at the combine.  I researched it a couple of weeks ago.  Even if it is correct, if a guy runs slow and then blows it up at his pro day, it may mean he was hurt or had a bad day. I he slugs it up again he is probably a stone like Jarrett.  Fitzgerald ran WAY better than that.  I believe he ran 4.47 at his pro day and did not run at the combine.  Fannation is not a good source and Jerry Rice's 4.71, but Walsh said he ran 4.59 and that was arguing that speed was overrated.

 

 

Quickness and flat straight line acceleration are not the same and neither is top speed cruising.  40s are probably the best measure for the NFL.  The idea that speed is irrelevant is one of the dumbest things I ever heard.

 

 

Ashlon Jeffrey did not go after Hill because he ran slow.  He ran well, but people were scared by his weight, attitude and questionable work ethic.  They were wrong, but so were plenty of more people gambling on slugs.

Okay, then if its from a bunch a morons then they're pretty damn consistent morons. If FItz ran a faster 40 at the combine then please provide a link from the NFL or the video itself. Until then I'll take what I see on the google link. And for the record, its not only from the bleacher report. I dont know whats up with Jet fans and that site but the hatred is strong. lol. 

 

Jeffery didnt go after Hill because he ran slow at all, he went after because how Fast Hill ran. the 40 has burned teams plenty of times, yet great WR's with a variety of speeds have been more than successful in the league yet the 40 still seems to be come sort of pedestal