75 replies to this topic

[JFtoLong]

The plan the past 4 years was to gear up on defense at all costs, and leave the offense pedestrian.

Think this was ALL Tannenbaum?

If you have read my posts for the past several months, you know where I firmly stand on this issue.

I would say this is 90% Rex, 10% Tannenbaum.

However, many Rex lovers on this board believe this was Tannenbaums plan, and poor Rex had to suffer the consequences of Tannys decisions, that Rex was so clearly fighting against, because he wanted to build a dynamic offense from day one.

[slats]

You really need to take your Rex beer goggles off...

How can you say for 7 years he never demonstrated a plan??

Seriously?

The Jets under Mangini were constantly criticized for sticking to the "plan" at all costs.

It may not have been a great plan, but they certainly did have a plan, and they stuck to it to a T when Mangini was HC.

Amazingly, once Rex became HC, the moves suddenly had no correlation, no apparent meaning.

Amazing how the same "GM" had such a complete philosophical change.

Face the facts, Tanny was fired for Rex's plan, or lack thereof.

Tanny has been GM in name only since he got that title, he has never, ever been a true GM, just as Pioli was not a true GM in NE.

Wow, that's a lot of crap, unless you consider drafting boyscouts to be a "plan."

[slats]

If you have read my posts for the past several months, you know where I firmly stand on this issue.

I would say this is 90% Rex, 10% Tannenbaum.

You previously said 80%-20%, lol.

However, many Rex lovers on this board believe this was Tannenbaums plan, and poor Rex had to suffer the consequences of Tannys decisions, that Rex was so clearly fighting against, because he wanted to build a dynamic offense from day one.

There is not a single person on this board who has ever said the above here. Not a single one.

[JFtoLong]

Wow, that's a lot of crap, unless you consider drafting boyscouts to be a "plan."

I don't even know what to say to this.....

The plan under Mangini was to switch to a 3-4 defense, that could adapt on a week by week basis to their opponent. And, to run the ball.

They started with a 4-3 Tampa 2 roster, and converted it.

Every move they made was to achieve this, every single one, to a fault.

They drafted guys who they thought were smart, and tough, and good character guys, who fit the scheme, and they built an excellent o-line as well.

They had a plan, and stuck to it perfectly, rather than saying what a load of crap it is, why don't you take the Rex beer goggles off, and counter my points, or are you just more interested in one line rebuts with no argument?

If so, I will stop wasting my time now.

[JFtoLong]

You previously said 80%-20%, lol.



There is not a single person on this board who has ever said the above here. Not a single one.

I have refined my position, glad out of all the things you chose to rebut, it was that one, LOL, says a LOT!

There are PLENTY who imply it on a regular basis.

[#27TheDominator]

He had his contract extended strictly on W-L record.

Coaches are judged by the records they record. It is not like Rex adds intangibles that make him a franchise legacy.

Rex helped put the team in the mess that he will inherit next year. His hands are not completely clean

And?

I'm not disputing any of that. To say the guy has to be fired if they don't make the playoffs and then go into the season cutting salaries and not renegotiating so that you have a ton of space in 2014 is stupid. Period. They can do it, but that doesn't make it right. The guy keeps or loses his job based on what he does with what he has. If you give him a team and he loses he's out. If you don't then you judge performance based on player development and wins-losses comparative to the talent level. How they finish will also be important. Losing the last three for the last two years really colors our perception, just as the long playoff runs did the opposite in 2009 and 2010.

[slats]

I don't even know what to say to this.....

The plan under Mangini was to switch to a 3-4 defense, that could adapt on a week by week basis to their opponent. And, to run the ball.

They started with a 4-3 Tampa 2 roster, and converted it.

Every move they made was to achieve this, every single one, to a fault.

They drafted guys who they thought were smart, and tough, and good character guys, who fit the scheme, and they built an excellent o-line as well.

They had a plan, and stuck to it perfectly, rather than saying what a load of crap it is, why don't you take the Rex beer goggles off, and counter my points, or are you just more interested in one line rebuts with no argument?

If so, I will stop wasting my time now.

What moves are they? Schlegel? Gholston?

When Mangini was shown the door, Tannenbaum was given the credit for all the the team's good moves, and Mangini was credited with the above. You're the one with the revisionist history lesson.

I agree with you that Rex had too much say in personnel decisions, but disagree on your reasons. My feeling is that Tannenbaum was weak, lacked any personnel evaluations skills of his own, and leaned too heavily on Rex as a result. Tannenbaum may've been partnered with Mangini, but he hired Rex. He was Rex's boss. He just sucked at it. Now he's gone. But this is a failing of the boss, for relying on underlings who are also not qualified to do the job that he was ultimately responsible for. That's why I believe he was fired.

I want Rex out of the personnel decisions. I'm hoping Idzik really is the adult in the room.

[slats]

I have refined my position, glad out of all the things you chose to rebut, it was that one, LOL, says a LOT!

There are PLENTY who imply it on a regular basis.

Imply? Show me.

I'll stand by not a single one. You need a strawman to argue against for some odd reason, and constantly prop him up.

[JFtoLong]

What moves are they? Schlegel? Gholston?

When Mangini was shown the door, Tannenbaum was given the credit for all the the team's good moves, and Mangini was credited with the above. You're the one with the revisionist history lesson.

I agree with you that Rex had too much say in personnel decisions, but disagree on your reasons. My feeling is that Tannenbaum was weak, lacked any personnel evaluations skills of his own, and leaned too heavily on Rex as a result. Tannenbaum may've been partnered with Mangini, but he hired Rex. He was Rex's boss. He just sucked at it. Now he's gone. But this is a failing of the boss, for relying on underlings who are also not qualified to do the job that he was ultimately responsible for. That's why I believe he was fired.

I want Rex out of the personnel decisions. I'm hoping Idzik really is the adult in the room.

1) Schlegal and Gholston were attrocious picks, but to say they did not fit what they were TRYING to accomplish is completely clueless. Schlegel was drafted to be a MLB in the 3-4, Gholston was drafted to provide a much needed pass rush.

They were both God awful picks, but I never once argued they did a great job with scouting, my argument was they had a plan and stuck to it, never even said it was a good plan.

2)That is always, always the case when a "team" is broken up like that, and one stays. Just like now, Tanny is getting all the blame, and Rex is getting more power. Open your eyes, take off the beer goggles you have for Rex.

3) I don't like Tanny, nor defend him at all, I am glad he is gone, but Rex should be gone too. If you cannot rely on your HC for personnel input, you have a major, major problem. Rex has proven time and time again, he sucks as a personnel evaluator, which for this and many, many other reasons, I don't want him as HC of the Jets.

If you want him to be a DC, I love that, would be thrilled with that, but I don't under any circumstances believe you can have a successful franchise if the HC cannot strongly contribute to personnel decisions, they don't have to be the final say, but you damn well better be able to evaluate talent, it is a core fundamental job responsibility as HC.

[unbanmadmike1]

1) Schlegal and Gholston were attrocious picks, but to say they did not fit what they were TRYING to accomplish is completely clueless. Schlegel was drafted to be a MLB in the 3-4, Gholston was drafted to provide a much needed pass rush.

They were both God awful picks, but I never once argued they did a great job with scouting, my argument was they had a plan and stuck to it, never even said it was a good plan.

2)That is always, always the case when a "team" is broken up like that, and one stays. Just like now, Tanny is getting all the blame, and Rex is getting more power. Open your eyes, take off the beer goggles you have for Rex.

3) I don't like Tanny, nor defend him at all, I am glad he is gone, but Rex should be gone too. If you cannot rely on your HC for personnel input, you have a major, major problem. Rex has proven time and time again, he sucks as a personnel evaluator, which for this and many, many other reasons, I don't want him as HC of the Jets.

If you want him to be a DC, I love that, would be thrilled with that, but I don't under any circumstances believe you can have a successful franchise if the HC cannot strongly contribute to personnel decisions, they don't have to be the final say, but you damn well better be able to evaluate talent, it is a core fundamental job responsibility as HC.

Pretty much this. If you can't rely on your HC to pick players you're in big trouble. And thats before you get to his total ineptitude on offense.

[#27TheDominator]

I don't say it often, but LOL.

Rex is being given more power? Yep. I'm sure. Just like Lovie Smith.

[slats]

3) I don't like Tanny, nor defend him at all, I am glad he is gone, but Rex should be gone too. If you cannot rely on your HC for personnel input, you have a major, major problem. Rex has proven time and time again, he sucks as a personnel evaluator, which for this and many, many other reasons, I don't want him as HC of the Jets.

Rex's job should not be talent evaluation. It's not the job of many -if not most- head coaches in the league. That's why teams have scouting departments and general managers in the first place. Sure, you listen to your head coach, but you need a guy in charge who's capable of identifying talent on his own. Tannenbaum was not that guy.

Going forward, it's my hope that Idzik is a capable personnel guy. I'm taking a wait and see approach on him, as his résumé isn't all that convincing to me.

I was very clear during the GM replacement process that I'd be perfectly fine with -and even preferring- that the new GM picks his own coach. So if I'm lumped in with your Rex lovers, Rex implyers, Rex beer-goggle wearers, etc., it really just further goes to show how weak your strawman arguments are in my eyes.

I do believe that if Rex's job is simply to coach, then he can be successful. But I also won't shed any tears if Idzik opts to fire him at the end of the season, either.

[unbanmadmike1]

Rex's job should not be talent evaluation. It's not the job of many -if not most- head coaches in the league. That's why teams have scouting departments and general managers in the first place. Sure, you listen to your head coach, but you need a guy in charge who's capable of identifying talent on his own. Tannenbaum was not that guy.

Going forward, it's my hope that Idzik is a capable personnel guy. I'm taking a wait and see approach on him, as his résumé isn't all that convincing to me.

I was very clear during the GM replacement process that I'd be perfectly fine with -and even preferring- that the new GM picks his own coach. So if I'm lumped in with your Rex lovers, Rex implyers, Rex beer-goggle wearers, etc., it really just further goes to show how weak your strawman arguments are in my eyes.

I do believe that if Rex's job is simply to coach, then he can be successful. But I also won't shed any tears if Idzik opts to fire him at the end of the season, either.

If you don't think your coach has to be able to scout talent you're fooling yourself. He's the guy who cuts to 53 men and decides who gets playing time so even if he isn't the final say in FA and the draft, if he's inept at player evaluation that is going to hurt your team.

[#27TheDominator]

Rex beer goggle wearer here. You can blame Rex for the draft picks and/or Mangini, but if that is the case, what the **** does Tannenbaum bring to the table? I can see deferring to the coach about specific players (Rex wants Coples, Tanny has Chandler Jones rated higher) but the GM has to stand up to the coach and say WE NEED OFFENSE at some ****ing point or he is a meaningless spectator. Either it's the GM's fault for being a sh*tty talent evaluator or the GM's fault for being a weakassed bitch.

[slats]

If you don't think your coach has to be able to scout talent you're fooling yourself. He's the guy who cuts to 53 men and decides who gets playing time so even if he isn't the final say in FA and the draft, if he's inept at player evaluation that is going to hurt your team.

There's a huge difference between evaluating players on your own roster, and selecting players in the draft.

And also, in Idzik's presser it was stated that he'll be in charge of the 53 man roster.

[unbanmadmike1]

Rex beer goggle wearer here. You can blame Rex for the draft picks and/or Mangini, but if that is the case, what the **** does Tannenbaum bring to the table? I can see deferring to the coach about specific players (Rex wants Coples, Tanny has Chandler Jones rated higher) but the GM has to stand up to the coach and say WE NEED OFFENSE at some ****ing point or he is a meaningless spectator. Either it's the GM's fault for being a sh*tty talent evaluator or the GM's fault for being a weakassed bitch.

You can make the same argument replacing Tennenbaum's name with Rex's. Thats why they were tied at the hip and should've both been fired.

[unbanmadmike1]

There's a huge difference between evaluating players on your own roster, and selecting players in the draft.

Maybe for the draft if you're going to say that the coach doesn't get chance to see every draft eligible player though that certainly isn't true for potential first round picks and Veteran Free Agents. Player evaluation is player evaluation.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Pretty much this. If you can't rely on your HC to pick players you're in big trouble. And thats before you get to his total ineptitude on offense.

Hasn't it been your contention all along that you don't want the head coach being anywhere near personnel decisions and for that to be left solely to the scouting department? Now you're saying a head coach should have to evaluate talent?

[unbanmadmike1]

Hasn't it been your contention all along that you don't want the head coach being anywhere near personnel decisions and for that to be left solely to the scouting department? Now you're saying a head coach should have to evaluate talent?

THIS head coach. Once it was clear that he wasn't going to be fired.

[#27TheDominator]

You can make the same argument replacing Tennenbaum's name with Rex's. Thats why they were tied at the hip and should've both been fired.

No. You can't. You can blame the coach for coaching and the GM for GMing. If the GM is delegating all the GMing to the coach why have him?