Stephen Hill Not Frustrated

[bitonti]

Not let a smaller CB body him too the football?  

 

the problem with that play wasn't Hill getting bodied out by the CB it was Michael Griffin lowering the hammer.

[#27TheDominator]

That throw is on Hill. a 6'4 receiver letting the CB beat him in front of the football is the sign of a bad WR. Hill didnt cut off his route soon enough allowing the CB(Verner) to get in front of him. A good wideout makes that play.

 

 

Not let a smaller CB body him too the football? Nelson has the same issues. A big WR who isnt physical is the last thing you want to be.

 

Crock of sh*t.  The CB isn't bodying Hill for the ball when he is running underneath.  The QB is the one that threw the ball directly to the CB.  The only way to body the guy out of the way is offensive pass interference.  It sure seems like Verner intentionally undercut HIll THE ENTIRE ROUTE, presumabley because he had safety help over the top.  The key is recognition.  Or is Dez Bryant a pussy because Revis sat under him at the end of the Cowboy game in 2011? 

[JiFtheOracle]

But it does have something to do with my point, which is Jeffery is a good receiver, and its not because of Marshall/Cutler, though it does help to have other playmakers around you. I will not deny that. I simply feel that when you have Jeffery on your team you have a "playmaker". Hill isnt a playmaker.

 

But, Hill has made plays when given the opportunity.  When they've thrown to him, he's caught it.  1 drop on the year.  I've watched him fight for extra yards (see the Pats game), I've seen him take big hits and hold on to the ball (see the Steelers game), I've seen him break the game wide open (see Bills game), and I've seen him wide open and his QB miss him, numerous times.  The situation, has an enormous impact on production.  Enormous.  

 

Prior to the concussion, he was on pace for a great season.  I think Bit's projected it out before.

 

Moral to the story, I think its way to early to call him a bust and I dont think its fair comparing him to Jeffrey  just because of draft position when they are in completely different situations...like, not comparable situations at all.  Even though, Jeffrey is clearly a better player, right now.

[peebag]

Stephen Hill's qbs have been: Mark Sanchez, Greg McElroy and Geno Smith.

 

Give the guy a break.

[JiFtheOracle]

Stephen Hill's qbs have been: Mark Sanchez, Greg McElroy and Geno Smith.

 

Give the guy a break.

 

22 years old, a year in a half into his career, on his 2nd offense, 3rd/4th QB, a raw prospect coming out, playing on a sh*tty offense on a run first team, he's not Alshon Jeffrey so clearly he's a bust.

[Matt39]

Crock of sh*t.  The CB isn't bodying Hill for the ball when he is running underneath.  The QB is the one that threw the ball directly to the CB.  The only way to body the guy out of the way is offensive pass interference.  It sure seems like Verner intentionally undercut HIll THE ENTIRE ROUTE, presumabley because he had safety help over the top.  The key is recognition.  Or is Dez Bryant a pussy because Revis sat under him at the end of the Cowboy game in 2011? 

 

Dez Bryant is a pussy and mentally soft. Excellent football player though and 10x the athlete Hill is when it translates on the field. But Dez has at least one boneheaded play per game.

 

But Hill needs to learn how to cut off a route. That play is on him for allowing the CB to undercut him. The pass thrown into triple coverage last week was also on Hill. He doesnt have the instinct to come back on the football(which is actually hard to teach) Some guys have it some dont. You cant wait for the football to get to you at the NFL level.

[#27TheDominator]

Dez Bryant is a pussy and mentally soft. Excellent football player though and 10x the athlete Hill is when it translates on the field. But Dez has at least one boneheaded play per game.

 

But Hill needs to learn how to cut off a route. That play is on him for allowing the CB to undercut him. The pass thrown into triple coverage last week was also on Hill. He doesnt have the instinct to come back on the football(which is actually hard to teach) Some guys have it some dont. You cant wait for the football to get to you at the NFL level.

 

 

Hahahaha.  Who are you?  Eli ******* Manning?  I honestly thought this response was sarcastic when I saw the triple covered comment.  At what point is it the QBs fault?    You can't always do what you want.  Especially when there is a safety over top.  Randomly cutting routes off does not cut it because then the S is free to roam elsewhere.  It depends on what the actual play is and what/if options there are designed in the play.

[Matt39]

Hahahaha.  Who are you?  Eli ******* Manning?  I honestly thought this response was sarcastic when I saw the triple covered comment.  At what point is it the QBs fault?    You can't always do what you want.  Especially when there is a safety over top.  Randomly cutting routes off does not cut it because then the S is free to roam elsewhere.  It depends on what the actual play is and what/if options there are designed in the play.

 

Generally when the QB is facing pressure, especially middle pressure- the WR doesn't keep running down the field with his head down. Its amazing how much you guys think the QB controls. You cant do anything when the WR are awful. WR is one of the toughest positions to master....its not just about getting open. Plenty of guys get open- getting open down the field while the QB is facing a casino blitz means little.

 

And yeah I know this may seem crazy a lot of Eli's INT's arent on him. It's Gilbride's offense....which is extremely difficult for WR's. Its all predicated on timing and being on the same page.

[JiFtheOracle]

Arent all offenses predicated on timing and being on the same page?

[#27TheDominator]

Generally when the QB is facing pressure, especially middle pressure- the WR doesn't keep running down the field with his head down. Its amazing how much you guys think the QB controls. You cant do anything when the WR are awful. WR is one of the toughest positions to master....its not just about getting open. Plenty of guys get open- getting open down the field while the QB is facing a casino blitz means little.

 

And yeah I know this may seem crazy a lot of Eli's INT's arent on him. It's Gilbride's offense....which is extremely difficult for WR's. Its all predicated on timing and being on the same page.

 

 

There wasn't much pressure on Verner's pick.  What was the excuse there?  

[Matt39]

Arent all offenses predicated on timing and being on the same page?

 

Obviously- but the Giants offense is built around passes 10 yards + down the field. Interceptions are going to happen.

[Matt39]

There wasn't much pressure on Verner's pick.  What was the excuse there?  

 

Its a totally different play. He let the corner cut in front of him while the ball was in the air- that's just getting beat.

 

Look at throws to Calvin....he gets those jump balls and deep posts because Stafford knows he'll beat the CB to the spot.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Dez Bryant is a pussy and mentally soft. Excellent football player though and 10x the athlete Hill is when it translates on the field. But Dez has at least one boneheaded play per game.

 

But Hill needs to learn how to cut off a route. That play is on him for allowing the CB to undercut him. The pass thrown into triple coverage last week was also on Hill. He doesnt have the instinct to come back on the football(which is actually hard to teach) Some guys have it some dont. You cant wait for the football to get to you at the NFL level.

The same Dez Bryant that practically put his team on his back the 2nd half of last season, including playing with a torn tendon and back spasms? He may be a knucklehead, but there is nothing soft about that kid. 

 

What do you mean cut off his route? It is 100% on Geno for throwing into f*cking bracket coverage, not on Hill.  There are fully times where it's on the receiver, ie. Kerley for running the wrong route on the pick 6 a few weeks ago, but this isn't on Hill.  He's running the route to draw double coverage from the safety so that all Geno has to do is hit Holmes who has a step on his guy.  

[Matt39]

I dont think Geno's picks are all on him is what Im saying. The WR's as a group really do stink. His int's are way different than the ones we were accustomed to Sanchez throwing. 

[Matt39]

The same Dez Bryant that practically put his team on his back the 2nd half of last season, including playing with a torn tendon and back spasms? He may be a knucklehead, but there is nothing soft about that kid. 

 

What do you mean cut off his route? It is 100% on Geno for throwing into f*cking bracket coverage, not on Hill.  There are fully times where it's on the receiver, ie. Kerley for running the wrong route on the pick 6 a few weeks ago, but this isn't on Hill.  He's running the route to draw double coverage from the safety so that all Geno has to do is hit Holmes who has a step on his guy.  

 

Dez is awesome and he's one of my favorite players in the league...but mentally I still think he's a bit soft. If he's not seeing the ball it gets in his head. He has a handful of just awful drops this season.

 

Bracket coverage? Hill is 6'4 220 and let a shrimp DB cut off his route. Big receivers are expected to make those plays. Especially now because 9 times out of 10 if the WR even touches the football he's getting a defenseless receiver penalty(which that play should have been but was called due to the INT)

[#27TheDominator]

Its a totally different play. He let the corner cut in front of him while the ball was in the air- that's just getting beat.

 

Look at throws to Calvin....he gets those jump balls and deep posts because Stafford knows he'll beat the CB to the spot.

 

Haha.  The CB was under him the whole time.  Played him under.  Big WR generally will have a tougher time getting a spot than fidget corners.  

 

Calvin gets those jump balls because he is Calvin.  Hill is not Calvin or even Jeffery - let's cut him!

[Matt39]

Haha.  The CB was under him the whole time.  Played him under.  Big WR generally will have a tougher time getting a spot than fidget corners.  

 

Calvin gets those jump balls because he is Calvin.  Hill is not Calvin or even Jeffery - let's cut him!

 

Can you post the full still shots of this play? Not just the first and last....I dont know what's so funny, its just a football discussion. 

 

Keyshawn made a living on the deep post getting under CB's and positioning himself to catch the football. This is on Hill just as much as Geno.

[#27TheDominator]

Can you post the full still shots of this play? Not just the first and last....I dont know what's so funny, its just a football discussion. 

 

Keyshawn made a living on the deep post getting under CB's and positioning himself to catch the football. This is on Hill just as much as Geno.

http://blog.titansonline.com/2013/09/29/interception-by-verner-sets-up-titans-td/

 

Deep posts and undecutting a CB that lets you by and undercuts are two totally separate things, especially with S help.  You can't totally see it here because he is out of the shot on the break, but it is far from a slam dunk that Hill was undercut and he sure seems to be behind the CB well before the ball was thrown.

 

Bundle of sticks. 

[Matt39]

On 11/14/2013 at 2:00 PM, #27TheDominator said:

http://blog.titansonline.com/2013/09/29/interception-by-verner-sets-up-titans-td/

 

Deep posts and undecutting a CB that lets you by and undercuts are two totally separate things, especially with S help.  You can't totally see it here because he is out of the shot on the break, but it is far from a slam dunk that Hill was undercut and he sure seems to be behind the CB well before the ball was thrown.

 

Bundle of sticks. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/big-play-highlights/2013/REG/10?gameId=2013092908

 

He's running away from the ball. If he undercuts his route and is at the spot Geno expects him to be, he doesnt even take that hit.

 

If you want to call me  just do it then. Im a big boy I can take it. Its a football discussion though.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Can you post the full still shots of this play? Not just the first and last....I dont know what's so funny, its just a football discussion. 

 

Keyshawn made a living on the deep post getting under CB's and positioning himself to catch the football. This is on Hill just as much as Geno.

 

I don't think we're going to agree on this one. It's not as if Hill drifted a yard or so deep in his route and let the CB jump it, it just so happened that he was getting bracketed. There's simply no way the corner takes the underneath coverage on someone as fast as hill if he wasn't expecting safety help over the top. If there wasn't safety help, that's an easy completion: either Geno read the coverage wrong or expected Hill to be in a position where he wouldn't get knocked out like that.  I can and have fully called out WRs like Kerley and Nelson this year for poor routes leading to interceptions nad have called out Hill before as well, but to me, this one is squarely on Geno (another player whom I really like).

 

 

For what it's worth, you can see the amount of attention Hill has gotten since he had two big games against NE and Buffalo. And for everyone clamoring for him to show development, he's still on pace for 600+ yards and a couple tds, which is on par for how other big time receivers fared in their second year.

[Matt39]

I don't think we're going to agree on this one. It's not as if Hill drifted a yard or so deep in his route and let the CB jump it, it just so happened that he was getting bracketed. There's simply no way the corner takes the underneath coverage on someone as fast as hill if he wasn't expecting safety help over the top. If there wasn't safety help, that's an easy completion: either Geno read the coverage wrong or expected Hill to be in a position where he wouldn't get knocked out like that.  I can and have fully called out WRs like Kerley and Nelson this year for poor routes leading to interceptions nad have called out Hill before as well, but to me, this one is squarely on Geno (another player whom I really like).

 

 

Judging on where the ball went though- Geno expected him to be at the spot and Hill kept running deeper. Maybe it was just a miscommunication but that's a completable throw into that type of coverage....especially for a guy with Geno's arm.

[#27TheDominator]

http://www.nfl.com/big-play-highlights/2013/REG/10?gameId=2013092908

 

He's running away from the ball. If he undercuts his route and is at the spot Geno expects him to be, he doesnt even take that hit.

 

If you want to call me a faggot just do it then. Im a big boy I can take it. Its a football discussion though.

 

 

You just said deep post and now you are telling me that he is supposed to undercut his route.  How is he supposed to alter his route and be at the "spot Geno expects him to be"

 

You can argue this all day.  There is probably some miscommunication there, but blaming ever INT on the WR is ridiculous.  He was blanketed on this play and led into the safety.  You know that the defense studies the routes and is guessing where HIll is supposed to go.  Maybe they got this one right.  I certainly agree that Hill is not the best at fighting to the ball and catching it at its highest point, but blaming him for passes that should not be thrown is a bit much. This was not a WR going deep when the QB thought he was pulling up.  WR can and should help out on bad throws, but that doesn't make the INT their fault.  Maybe you are right, but there is no way in hell without knowing the exact play call and options to tell that you are - yet you are completely sure.  Watching Geno's mistakes through the weeks I'd tend to blame him.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Judging on where the ball went though- Geno expected him to be at the spot and Hill kept running deeper. Maybe it was just a miscommunication but that's a completable throw into that type of coverage....especially for a guy with Geno's arm.

 

True. The more I watch it, the more I think it's a miscommunication and Hill was going to continue his post and Geno thought he was going to sit and come back to the ball. If that's the case, it seems to be a poor decision on Geno as HIll clearly had a step on Verner and no way Griffin sticks with him. I'm still mildly surprised they didn't get the call on a defenseless receiver, Griffin clearly lead with his helmet.

[Matt39]

You just said deep post and now you are telling me that he is supposed to undercut his route.  How is he supposed to alter his route and be at the "spot Geno expects him to be"

 

You can argue this all day.  There is probably some miscommunication there, but blaming ever INT on the WR is ridiculous.  He was blanketed on this play and led into the safety.  You know that the defense studies the routes and is guessing where HIll is supposed to go.  Maybe they got this one right.  I certainly agree that Hill is not the best at fighting to the ball and catching it at its highest point, but blaming him for passes that should not be thrown is a bit much. This was not a WR going deep when the QB thought he was pulling up.  WR can and should help out on bad throws, but that doesn't make the INT their fault.  Maybe you are right, but there is no way in hell without knowing the exact play call and options to tell that you are - yet you are completely sure.  Watching Geno's mistakes through the weeks I'd tend to blame him.

 

Im not blaming every INT on the receivers. This particular play- I thought Hill could have done a better job feeling the coverage and getting underneath his man. Instead he's running down the field in la-la land and nearly gets his head taken off. The WR's on this team are a bad group. Geno's worst mistakes are behind him imo. The worst turnovers he had were when he faced middle pressure and continued to back peddle. Interceptions down the field I can live with- especially knowing the WR corp will be upgraded next season. 

[Matt39]

True. The more I watch it, the more I think it's a miscommunication and Hill was going to continue his post and Geno thought he was going to sit and come back to the ball. If that's the case, it seems to be a poor decision on Geno as HIll clearly had a step on Verner and no way Griffin sticks with him. I'm still mildly surprised they didn't get the call on a defenseless receiver, Griffin clearly lead with his helmet.

 

Exactly...were not even having this convo if the ref makes the correct call on the defensless receiver. I hate that penalty but technically it should have been flagged. But I dont think its a coincidence Geno's stopped looking Hill's way.

[#27TheDominator]

Im not blaming every INT on the receivers. This particular play- I thought Hill could have done a better job feeling the coverage and getting underneath his man. Instead he's running down the field in la-la land and nearly gets his head taken off. The WR's on this team are a bad group. Geno's worst mistakes are behind him imo. The worst turnovers he had were when he faced middle pressure and continued to back peddle. Interceptions down the field I can live with- especially knowing the WR corp will be upgraded next season. 

 

Better job and his fault are pretty far apart on the spectrum and without knowing the actual depth the route is called for or if there was an option, nobody can be completely sure what his choices were.  IMO, Hill is a valuable player.  As a complimentary player he may end up causing tons of problems and him not being polished is no shock.  

[Matt39]

Better job and his fault are pretty far apart on the spectrum and without knowing the actual depth the route is called for or if there was an option, nobody can be completely sure what his choices were.  IMO, Hill is a valuable player.  As a complimentary player he may end up causing tons of problems and him not being polished is no shock.  

 

If last weeks game is an indication of us getting our running game going then hopefully we can free him up on some go routes.

[#27TheDominator]

If last weeks game is an indication of us getting our running game going then hopefully we can free him up on some go routes.

 

 

Yeah. Let us pray, and maybe he can open things underneath so Holmes could get going.  Of course he had his routes against the Bills already...

[BroadwayJoe12]

If last weeks game is an indication of us getting our running game going then hopefully we can free him up on some go routes.

 

If the running game stays consistent and Holmes can stay on the field, there should be a lot of open looks for Hill and we'll hopefully see more of the Week 2 and 3 player who was averaging almost 28 yards a catch.  

 

I know I've been beating a dead horse with this, but if his end of season numbers are what i expect, we're going to see a player primed for a breakout 3rd year. 

 

1st season: (11 games, 8 started) 21 - 252 - 3 (12.0 Y/C)

2nd season: (16 games, 15 started) 40 - 680 - 2 (15 Y/C)

3rd season: If healthy and complimentary receivers are added, I'd fully expect a 1000 yard season.

[Matt39]

If the running game stays consistent and Holmes can stay on the field, there should be a lot of open looks for Hill and we'll hopefully see more of the Week 2 and 3 player who was averaging almost 28 yards a catch.  

 

I know I've been beating a dead horse with this, but if his end of season numbers are what i expect, we're going to see a player primed for a breakout 3rd year. 

 

1st season: (11 games, 8 started) 21 - 252 - 3 (12.0 Y/C)

2nd season: (16 games, 15 started) 40 - 680 - 2 (15 Y/C)

3rd season: If healthy and complimentary receivers are added, I'd fully expect a 1000 yard season.

 

If Hill turns in a 1,000 yard season next year feel free to publicly flog me for being wrong. I'll deserve it.

[#27TheDominator]

If Hill turns in a 1,000 yard season next year feel free to publicly flog me for being wrong. I'll deserve it.

 

You'd really be that surprised?  IMO Hill could put up 1,000 yard season and still be crucified on this board.  

[Matt39]

You'd really be that surprised?  IMO Hill could put up 1,000 yard season and still be crucified on this board.  

 

He needs to learn to look back at the QB/football. 

 

Geno doesnt throw to him a lot because he's simply not looking.

[BroadwayJoe12]

If Hill turns in a 1,000 yard season next year feel free to publicly flog me for being wrong. I'll deserve it.

 

I'll be privately flogging myself in the comforts of my room if that happens.

 

I feel if we can get someone on the team who can operate as a #1 WR or at least take some double teams, then Hill will have a significant improvement in play.  You and I have both been high on the Golden Tate bandwagon and I think if he somehow gets away from Seattle he'd be a great fit here. I'd also like to see what Maclin has, should his knee check out, and then obviously bolster the offense via the draft: there will be plenty of guys falling into the second and high 3rd (tampa pick) that can immediately help out: Cooks, Matthews, Beckham Jr, Landry etc.

 

As the season has progressed, I think that my order for guys in the first round will go:

 

1) Watkins

2a. Marqise Lee

2b. Mike Evans

 

If those guys aren't available when we pick, I wouldn't be opposed to nabbing Amaro (my favorite), Jenkins or Ebron and then one of the aforementioned 2nd/3rd round picks at receiver.  If Watkins/Lee/Evans aren't available but we could come away with a combo of Amaro and say Cooks/Matthews/Bekham/Landry, I think that would go a long way towards improving our offense. 

[Matt39]

I'll be privately flogging myself in the comforts of my room if that happens.

 

I feel if we can get someone on the team who can operate as a #1 WR or at least take some double teams, then Hill will have a significant improvement in play.  You and I have both been high on the Golden Tate bandwagon and I think if he somehow gets away from Seattle he'd be a great fit here. I'd also like to see what Maclin has, should his knee check out, and then obviously bolster the offense via the draft: there will be plenty of guys falling into the second and high 3rd (tampa pick) that can immediately help out: Cooks, Matthews, Beckham Jr, Landry etc.

 

As the season has progressed, I think that my order for guys in the first round will go:

 

1) Watkins

2a. Marqise Lee

2b. Mike Evans

 

If those guys aren't available when we pick, I wouldn't be opposed to nabbing Amaro (my favorite), Jenkins or Ebron and then one of the aforementioned 2nd/3rd round picks at receiver.  If Watkins/Lee/Evans aren't available but we could come away with a combo of Amaro and say Cooks/Matthews/Bekham/Landry, I think that would go a long way towards improving our offense. 

 

Maybe they trade up for Watkins...Id be for that. Sign Tate. Sign another CB. Draft a tight end.

[#27TheDominator]

Maybe they trade up for Watkins...Id be for that. Sign Tate. Sign another CB. Draft a tight end.

 

 

What do you mean by "sign another CB?"  We are assuming Cromartie is getting cut, correct? Otherwise I'm not sure I see the $$ or the point.