Poll: Your best guess - If Bill Belichick stayed on with the Jets after Parcells, would the Jets have had a Patriot-like Dynasty?

[jetrider]

8 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

And I'm saying there are many coaches who could have made it work with Tom Brady.  We see 6th rounders, 7th rounders, and UDFAs do well all over the league.  It just happens that, in this case, the 6th rounder we're talking about happened to be a QB.  The guy got lucky.  Really lucky.

Belicheat didn't even know what he had going into the 2001 season with Brady.  There's a reason he gave Bledsoe a huge extension.

You don't know that. All you know is BB made it happen and because you hate him he doesn't deserve any credit.

Could Brady go to another team now and make them great? Most likely yes.

Could another team have developed Brady into the QB he is today? Probably not.

You're correct, in 2001 unknown Brady was too raw, which proves he was undeveloped and needed quality coaching. My point all along. 

He wasn't a 1st round superstar out of the box that fell in BB's lap on draft day. That would've been lucky, really lucky. That's the opposite of what happened.

[nyjunc]

It would all depend if he drafted Brady, if he drafts Brady here then yes we have the dynasty but if he doesn't them he is fired w/in 3 years and is a DC somewhere today.

 

remember, we weren't looking for a QB in the 2000 draft, we picked Chad b/c we got extra picks from keyshawn trade and Belichick trade.  obviously if he stays that removes one 1st rounder so chances are we don't take Chad and assuming he has same staff in place he took to NE then we get Brady here and everyone would now hate the Jets and whine about us cheating as we'd be laughing w/ a handful of SB rings.

[nyjunc]

8 hours ago, jetrider said:

You don't know that. All you know is BB made it happen and because you hate him he doesn't deserve any credit.

Could Brady go to another team now and make them great? Most likely yes.

Could another team have developed Brady into the QB he is today? Probably not.

You're correct, in 2001 unknown Brady was too raw, which proves he was undeveloped and needed quality coaching. My point all along. 

He wasn't a 1st round superstar out of the box that fell in BB's lap on draft day. That would've been lucky, really lucky. That's the opposite of what happened.

We don't know what Brady does anywhere else, what we do know is BB in the pre-brady era was a failure of a HC.  fired by Cleveland w/ 4 losing seasons in 5 years and on his way to the same fate in NE until Brady emerged.

[jetrider]

22 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

It would all depend if he drafted Brady, if he drafts Brady here then yes we have the dynasty but if he doesn't them he is fired w/in 3 years and is a DC somewhere today.

 

remember, we weren't looking for a QB in the 2000 draft, we picked Chad b/c we got extra picks from keyshawn trade and Belichick trade.  obviously if he stays that removes one 1st rounder so chances are we don't take Chad and assuming he has same staff in place he took to NE then we get Brady here and everyone would now hate the Jets and whine about us cheating as we'd be laughing w/ a handful of SB rings.

It begins with BB. You finally said it.

[nyjunc]

12 minutes ago, jetrider said:

It begins with BB. You finally said it.

it would begin w/ BB b/c he drafted him.  BB w/o TB=disaster, BB+TB=dynasty

[jetrider]

22 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

We don't know what Brady does anywhere else, what we do know is BB in the pre-brady era was a failure of a HC.  fired by Cleveland w/ 4 losing seasons in 5 years and on his way to the same fate in NE until Brady emerged.

Brady didn't "emerge" from the cosmos. BB selected and developed him. Keyword: developed. The part that fails to penetrate your bozone layer.

The Cleveland experience proves coaching is a learning process too and what might've been in NE without Brady is completely unknown. 

[nyjunc]

12 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Brady didn't "emerge" from the cosmos. BB selected and developed him. Keyword: developed. The part that fails to penetrate your bozone layer.

The Cleveland experience proves coaching is a learning process too and what might've been in NE without Brady is completely unknown. 

Brady became a starter 1 year later, it was pure luck.  he was drafted to hopefully be a backup one day, they gave that stiff Bledsoe a $100 mil contract after the 5-11 2000 season.  Brady rescued BB's HC career or he'd be a DC somewhere today.

[jetrider]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Brady became a starter 1 year later, it was pure luck.  he was drafted to hopefully be a backup one day, they gave that stiff Bledsoe a $100 mil contract after the 5-11 2000 season.  Brady rescued BB's HC career or he'd be a DC somewhere today.

LOL. You'll never change my mind as I'll never change yours.

I'm surprised you're not arguing Ryan's game-changing fumble was an incomplete forward pass ...

[nyjunc]

15 minutes ago, jetrider said:

LOL. You'll never change my mind as I'll never change yours.

I'm surprised you're not arguing Ryan's game-changing fumble was an incomplete forward pass ...

I saw what BB was before Brady, I have watched Brady for 15 years.  he's hands down the best QB to ever play this game.  I thought it was close btw him and Montana but now it's not close.  BB had coached a bunch of other playoff QBs before and only made one postseason w/ him- only had one winning record pre Brady.  if Brady retired today BB would make the playoffs but if he never had Brady he never would have had a chance to develop into a great HC and would be a DC today if he was still coaching.

[jetrider]

13 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I saw what BB was before Brady, I have watched Brady for 15 years.  he's hands down the best QB to ever play this game.  I thought it was close btw him and Montana but now it's not close.  BB had coached a bunch of other playoff QBs before and only made one postseason w/ him- only had one winning record pre Brady.  if Brady retired today BB would make the playoffs but if he never had Brady he never would have had a chance to develop into a great HC and would be a DC today if he was still coaching.

What was Brady before BB? I think Belichick shifted gears under Tuna. When he left NYJ he was ready for greatness.

[nyjunc]

23 minutes ago, jetrider said:

What was Brady before BB? I think Belichick shifted gears under Tuna. When he left NYJ he was ready for greatness.

5-13 in his first 18 games tells us otherwise.

what was Brady before BB? an overlooked good college QB.  Michigan was in a weird situation having to promise drew henson the job but Brady was better and it allowed him to fall in the draft.  Brady's emergence allowed BB to become a great HC, he never would have had the time to do it w/o Brady.

[detectivekimble]

11 hours ago, jetrider said:

You don't know that. All you know is BB made it happen and because you hate him he doesn't deserve any credit.

Could Brady go to another team now and make them great? Most likely yes.

Could another team have developed Brady into the QB he is today? Probably not.

You're correct, in 2001 unknown Brady was too raw, which proves he was undeveloped and needed quality coaching. My point all along. 

He wasn't a 1st round superstar out of the box that fell in BB's lap on draft day. That would've been lucky, really lucky. That's the opposite of what happened.

Sorry, but there's nothing in BB's history that shows that he's any better at drafting or "developing" than any other coach.

[SMC]

Belichick made the right decision because he chased after power and Drew Bledsoe.  Bledsoe, of course, didn't end up as good as Brady, but he was still a No. 1 pick who led his team to the SB.

Belichick would not have the same success with the Jets (it has nothing to do with SOJ) because he wouldn't have found a good QB to coach behind.  

[nyjunc]

39 minutes ago, SMC said:

Belichick made the right decision because he chased after power and Drew Bledsoe.  Bledsoe, of course, didn't end up as good as Brady, but he was still a No. 1 pick who led his team to the SB.

Belichick would not have the same success with the Jets (it has nothing to do with SOJ) because he wouldn't have found a good QB to coach behind.  

he was 5-13 w/ Bledsoe at QB

[jetrider]

22 hours ago, nyjunc said:

5-13 in his first 18 games tells us otherwise.

what was Brady before BB? an overlooked good college QB.  Michigan was in a weird situation having to promise drew henson the job but Brady was better and it allowed him to fall in the draft.  Brady's emergence allowed BB to become a great HC, he never would have had the time to do it w/o Brady.

And that 18-game transitional snapshot defines BB as a HC. (rolleyes)

Your desperation is so depressing I responded just to be polite.

 

 

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, jetrider said:

And that 18-game transitional snapshot defines BB as a HC. (rolleyes)

Your desperation is so depressing I responded just to be polite.

 

 

No, that plus his 5 years in Cleveland defines his HC career w/o Brady.

 

but please keep going nuts over losing 5 more games against easier sched while missing playoffs w/ Cassell who would lead KC to a div title 2 years later.

 

Your argument is awful, is there someone out there who can give me a challenge?  

[SMC]

22 hours ago, nyjunc said:

he was 5-13 w/ Bledsoe at QB

True, but the discussion is about BEFORE he signed with Pats.  Bledsoe was a quality QB and went to the playoffs and SB prior to Belichick becoming HC.

[jetrider]

59 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

No, that plus his 5 years in Cleveland defines his HC career w/o Brady.

 

but please keep going nuts over losing 5 more games against easier sched while missing playoffs w/ Cassell who would lead KC to a div title 2 years later.

 

Your argument is awful, is there someone out there who can give me a challenge?  

I never argue a point I can't win so just accept the fact I'm right. 

Because I am.

[Hael]

On 2/6/2017 at 1:33 PM, detectivekimble said:

Sorry, but there's nothing in BB's history that shows that he's any better at drafting or "developing" than any other coach.

BB isn't the greatest drafter in the NFL, but he's in the top five-ten or so.  He's also a fantastic developer of talent, routinely taking people's trash and turning it into situational gold.

Even without Brady they have an extremely talented team year in and year out, in all three phases, and mostly populated with homegrown talent.  This despite being docked three first round picks for the various infractions during the 15 year stay, and always drafting at the tail end of the draft.

That's what's so damn impressive.  Meanwhile teams like the browns with  perennial top 5 picks, have a far less talented roster.

[TuscanyTile2]

2 hours ago, Hael said:

BB isn't the greatest drafter in the NFL, but he's in the top five-ten or so.  He's also a fantastic developer of talent, routinely taking people's trash and turning it into situational gold.

Even without Brady they have an extremely talented team year in and year out, in all three phases, and mostly populated with homegrown talent.  This despite being docked three first round picks for the various infractions during the 15 year stay, and always drafting at the tail end of the draft.

That's what's so damn impressive.  Meanwhile teams like the browns with  perennial top 5 picks, have a far less talented roster.

And he traded Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins too.

[detectivekimble]

5 hours ago, Hael said:

BB isn't the greatest drafter in the NFL, but he's in the top five-ten or so.  He's also a fantastic developer of talent, routinely taking people's trash and turning it into situational gold.

Even without Brady they have an extremely talented team year in and year out, in all three phases, and mostly populated with homegrown talent.  This despite being docked three first round picks for the various infractions during the 15 year stay, and always drafting at the tail end of the draft.

That's what's so damn impressive.  Meanwhile teams like the browns with  perennial top 5 picks, have a far less talented roster.

Right.  He sure turned Albert Haynesworth and Jonathon Cooper into studs.  There's no evidence that he's any better in these areas than anyone else.  Having Brady makes everything look better.  

From a few years ago:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-grader-new-england-patriots-2/

[Ex-Rex]

On 2/2/2017 at 7:07 PM, JetsFanatic said:

Belichick was 5-11 in 2000 and started 1-3 in 2001, if not for Bledsoe's injury Belichick would have been fired by NE after the 2001 season.

Absolutely. Belichick is known as one of the hardest workers as a coach in the NFL, but Tom Brady made the Pats champs more than Belichick. His system may have made Brady who he is but Brady still had to understand it and run it. The Jets had no one of his caliber at QB and still don't. Chad Pennington was a nice QB and very smart but his ball floated like it had helium in it and every time he threw I pissed my pants waiting for it to get there. I think BB would have dumped him and maybe duped the Pats into trading their sixth round skinny QB to the Jets but who knows, since Parcells was calling the shots that year and he was told by scouts to take Brady in the draft and he ignored them. Real smart move there eh?

[Ex-Rex]

On 2/6/2017 at 1:05 PM, nyjunc said:

5-13 in his first 18 games tells us otherwise.

what was Brady before BB? an overlooked good college QB.  Michigan was in a weird situation having to promise drew henson the job but Brady was better and it allowed him to fall in the draft.  Brady's emergence allowed BB to become a great HC, he never would have had the time to do it w/o Brady.

Michigan HC Lloyd Carr kept trying to replace Brady with Brian Griese and Drew Henson and yet had to keep turning to Brady to pull out games. Brady was always overlooked and that fueled his fire. Unless the Pats agreed to trade Brady to the Jets BB would have been a four year coach who would have been let go when Pennington's injury issues killed the Jets playoff chances. BB may have been successful in NY, but not to the level of what he did in NE.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Ex-Rex said:

Michigan HC Lloyd Carr kept trying to replace Brady with Brian Griese and Drew Henson and yet had to keep turning to Brady to pull out games. Brady was always overlooked and that fueled his fire. Unless the Pats agreed to trade Brady to the Jets BB would have been a four year coach who would have been let go when Pennington's injury issues killed the Jets playoff chances. BB may have been successful in NY, but not to the level of what he did in NE.

if BB stays here we don't get that extra pick for him so do we still take Chad? also, would he have traded Key? probably but chances are he doesn't go QB 1st rd and w/ same people in place he had in NE would we have taken Brady?