Jets restructure Quincy Williams and Tyler Conkin contracts

[Warfish]

28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Basically, we are at the point of agree to disagree.  If you think cap management is something that no fans can understand, I wholeheartedly disagree.

I think fans who root for cap management over talent on the field are generally being a bit silly, and generally do so based on poor or incomplete information and poor sports media reporting.  The cap keeps rising, it's rare an issue these days in the kind of way we suffered under back then.  

The irony will be if JD ultimately gives Reddick what he wants, we'll then be showered in threads praising JD and the cap stuff will be forgotten by most of the people now demanding we stand up for some sort of principle against holdouts.  

28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The fact that "every player wroth resigning to big money was in a single draft" is an issue and it is all the more the reason why caving to Reddick would be a mistake.

Depends.  What if Reddick is a 15 sack guy this year, and makes or breaks a playoff game win vs. a loss?  

Penny wise, pound foolish.  The guy is supposed to be the best pass rusher we've had in NY in decades.  That moves the needle on wins/losses, doesn't it?  

I won't lie, my motivation is to win and win now.  We have (from many posters mouths here) the best roster the Jets have EVER had.  And they might be right.  We have a HOF QB on his last legs in this league because time wins every time and he's going to finish the year 41 years old.  We have several guys we want to resign that we are unlikely to be able to sign all of (as discussed in several other threads here started by others).  

Our window isn't very big here.  One, maybe two years.  Then we need a new Franchise QB, and likely much more.

I'm willing to sacrifice a little of 2027 and beyond to have a better change to exploit this window at something special in 2024.  

And again, the "principle" here seems to be more that Reddick held out rather than showed up and held in like Ayuk did in San Fran.  That's a dumb principle, a dumb hill to die on.  

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, slats said:

Sorry Buddy, but you’re out of your depth here by your own choosing. There’s enough info available for any lay person to become an expert, and it’s not even hard to find. 

I bet you stayed at a Holiday Inn last too, with both Dunning and Kruger as your room mates, lol.  

 

[Warfish]

13 minutes ago, slats said:

Rodgers gave up over $30M in guaranteed money when he “restructured” his contract here. It was a massive give back. 

Well, you're definitely getting it wrong the same way the sports media usually does, so at least there is that.

[slats]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

How kind of him.  Remind me, what is his cap hit the next few years again?

Also, he did not take an actual cut in pay.  He won't get a dollar less than he was supposed to get.  He allowed the team to better manage the cap hit (he was due to be a spectacular amount in 24 before the reneg.), but he did not reduce his net pay at the end of the day.  Some of the pay was converted to a roster bonus and paid out, and option years added to allow the total cost to be spread over extra years.  The media gets this wrong every single time they report on so-called "pay cuts" players take.  Most of the time, it's not a cut, but a immediate new bonus of some kind, and extra years to spread the total out.

 

8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I bet you stayed at a Holiday Inn last too, with both Dunning and Kruger as your room mates, lol.  

 

Talk to yourself, dude. That top post is chock full of wrongness pretending it’s not. 

[slats]

Just now, Warfish said:

Well, you're definitely getting it wrong the same way the sports media usually does, so at least there is that.

Please link me to some credible source stating that Rodgers did not, in fact, give back over $30M he was guaranteed. I’d love to read such a thing, if it exists. 

[#27TheDominator]

12 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I think fans who root for cap management over talent on the field are generally being a bit silly, and generally do so based on poor or incomplete information and poor sports media reporting.  The cap keeps rising, it's rare an issue these days in the kind of way we suffered under back then.  

The irony will be if JD ultimately gives Reddick what he wants, we'll then be showered in threads praising JD and the cap stuff will be forgotten by most of the people now demanding we stand up for some sort of principle against holdouts.  

Depends.  What if Reddick is a 15 sack guy this year, and makes or breaks a playoff game win vs. a loss?  

Penny wise, pound foolish.  The guy is supposed to be the best pass rusher we've had in NY in decades.  That moves the needle on wins/losses, doesn't it?  

I won't lie, my motivation is to win and win now.  We have (from many posters mouths here) the best roster the Jets have EVER had.  And they might be right.  We have a HOF QB on his last legs in this league because time wins every time and he's going to finish the year 41 years old.  We have several guys we want to resign that we are unlikely to be able to sign all of (as discussed in several other threads here started by others).  

Our window isn't very big here.  One, maybe two years.  Then we need a new Franchise QB, and likely much more.

I'm willing to sacrifice a little of 2027 and beyond to have a better change to exploit this window at something special in 2024.  

And again, the "principle" here seems to be more that Reddick held out rather than showed up and held in like Ayuk did in San Fran.  That's a dumb principle, a dumb hill to die on.  

Everything depends.  

I am not rooting for cap management over wins.  I am rooting for the team to do what I think is right.  My honest belief is that will result in more wins.  

My belief is that they can get what they want out of Reddick - which is a one year rental DPR without ponying up anything much over what he was originally owed.  I think he will show up and play before he gives up the season.  Am I wrong?  Again, basically agree to disagree and time will tell. 

I am not a "let him rot" guy.  I support players doing what they can to get paid, even if I do hate it when it is the Jets.  I don't think there is a huge difference between a hold out and a hold in.  Douglas has said to come into camp and work and they would talk.  That does not sound like a hold in to me.  OTOH, if the guy won't even come to camp and pretend (hold in) I don't see any reason to break from stated policy and bother talking.

[#27TheDominator]

Literally the preeminent cap expert on NFL matters is a poster here.  I don't think I've seen him post much lately, but the idea that none of us know what we are talking about is truly ridiculous.

 

 

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, slats said:

Please link me to some credible source stating that Rodgers did not, in fact, give back over $30M he was guaranteed. I’d love to read such a thing, if it exists. 

You're a fan of Over the Cap, aren't you?  It's seems pretty clear there.

Before the Reneg. Rodgers had $110M in guaranteed money due to him remaining we inherited, including a massive 2024 cap hit over $100M.  We agree on that right, it's been widely reported and appears supported by Over the Cap.

Under his Reneg. Contract, he was given a new bonus (reported as a Roster Bonus, and paid immediately) of $35M separate from the $75M guaranteed figure under his new deal.

Deal before, $110M in cash to Rodgers, deal after $110M cash to Rodgers, but with a literal huge cap relief in the short term years for the Jets, especially 2024 which was frankly untenable for the Jets as it was.

Looking at Over the Cap, you can the details, including the pro-rating of that $35M roster bonus as "other bonus" separate from the $75M guaranteed for FY25 and beyond.  https://overthecap.com/player/aaron-rodgers/1085

Now, it's always possible I'm misreading, but this error seems quite common in contract reporting, claims of "took a cut" when in reality some salary is being converted to a bonus being paid immediately (and prorated against future cap years) with likely voided option years added to spread the cap hit far longer than the existing deal would do, but without actually cutting the pay the player receives.

And yes, there are definitely cases where net pay is cut, but that is generally guys who are otherwise about to cut if they say no and have few better options (when they have options, they say no, then go sign a deal elsewhere).

Or I am a huge loud mouthed moron and got it all wrong, always possible too.  

I still want Reddick on the field sacking our opponents.  Sorry.

[bicketybam]

Aaron Arodgera contract with the Packers was for 3 years and a guaranteed $150,815,000. He would have been paid through this season (2024), all guaranteed.

When he came to the Jets he reworked his deal for 2023 and 2024 to 75,000,000 guaranteed.

Old contract 150,815,000 guaranteed.

He was paid 41,950,000 by the Packers for 2022, and with the reworked deal he got $36,888,888 guaranteed from the Jets last year and $38,161,112 guaranteed for this year. His total salary for 2022-2024 is $117,000,000. The contract he came to the Jets on would have paid him $150,815,000 over the same 3 year period. He gave back $33,815,000 in guaranteed money. After this year he has no guarantees money left.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

34 minutes ago, slats said:

Please link me to some credible source stating that Rodgers did not, in fact, give back over $30M he was guaranteed. I’d love to read such a thing, if it exists. 

Yea, I mean it’s pretty simple math that he gave back $30M+.

Facts be damned.

Wait, it’s all about winning for some but some of these sample people want to trade Garrett Wilson for a 2nd rounder.

 

[bicketybam]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

You're a fan of Over the Cap, aren't you?  It's seems pretty clear there.

Before the Reneg. Rodgers had $110M in guaranteed money due to him remaining we inherited, including a massive 2024 cap hit over $100M.  We agree on that right, it's been widely reported and appears supported by Over the Cap.

Under his Reneg. Contract, he was given a new bonus (reported as a Roster Bonus, and paid immediately) of $35M separate from the $75M guaranteed figure under his new deal.

Deal before, $110M in cash to Rodgers, deal after $110M cash to Rodgers, but with a literal huge cap relief in the short term years for the Jets, especially 2024 which was frankly untenable for the Jets as it was.

Looking at Over the Cap, you can the details, including the pro-rating of that $35M roster bonus as "other bonus" separate from the $75M guaranteed for FY25 and beyond.  https://overthecap.com/player/aaron-rodgers/1085

Now, it's always possible I'm misreading, but this error seems quite common in contract reporting, claims of "took a cut" when in reality some salary is being converted to a bonus being paid immediately (and prorated against future cap years) with likely voided option years added to spread the cap hit far longer than the existing deal would do, but without actually cutting the pay the player receives.

And yes, there are definitely cases where net pay is cut, but that is generally guys who are otherwise about to cut if they say no and have few better options (when they have options, they say no, then go sign a deal elsewhere).

Or I am a huge loud mouthed moron and got it all wrong, always possible too.  

I still want Reddick on the field sacking our opponents.  Sorry.

He went from 150,815,000 to 117,000,000 guaranteed for the same time period. Do the math. We are talking cash in his pocket. If he leaves after this year, he will be 33,815,000 poorer than if he never reworked his deal.

[slats]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're a fan of Over the Cap, aren't you?  It's seems pretty clear there.

Before the Reneg. Rodgers had $110M in guaranteed money due to him remaining we inherited, including a massive 2024 cap hit over $100M.  We agree on that right, it's been widely reported and appears supported by Over the Cap.

Under his Reneg. Contract, he was given a new bonus (reported as a Roster Bonus, and paid immediately) of $35M separate from the $75M guaranteed figure under his new deal.

Deal before, $110M in cash to Rodgers, deal after $110M cash to Rodgers, but with a literal huge cap relief in the short term years for the Jets, especially 2024 which was frankly untenable for the Jets as it was.

Looking at Over the Cap, you can the details, including the pro-rating of that $35M roster bonus as "other bonus" separate from the $75M guaranteed for FY25 and beyond.  https://overthecap.com/player/aaron-rodgers/1085

Now, it's always possible I'm misreading, but this error seems quite common in contract reporting, claims of "took a cut" when in reality some salary is being converted to a bonus being paid immediately (and prorated against future cap years) with likely voided option years added to spread the cap hit far longer than the existing deal would do, but without actually cutting the pay the player receives.

And yes, there are definitely cases where net pay is cut, but that is generally guys who are otherwise about to cut if they say no and have few better options (when they have options, they say no, then go sign a deal elsewhere).

Or I am a huge loud mouthed moron and got it all wrong, always possible too.  

I still want Reddick on the field sacking our opponents.  Sorry.

I think you’re reading it wrong. He came to the team with $110M fully guaranteed left on the two years left on his deal. He signed a three year contract worth $112M, with only $75M guaranteed. The only way he makes that $37M is by playing for it in 2025. 
 
If he does that, sure, you can say he made all the money he originally had coming to him, but he will have had to play a third year to get it. If I’m now making the same amount of money over three years that I was previously gonna make over two, I’d say that’s pretty effectively a pay cut. 

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

What QB has ever given back $35M?  In this case, over a remaining guaranteed 2 years the Jets would have inherited from the Packers ($110M down to $75M)?

To be fair, I discount that $35M further because the big dummy 'influenced' the Jets to sign Dalvin Cook, Allen Lazard, and Randall Cobb.  So maybe the discount isn't as big as we think 😬.  Dammnit, now I'm countering my counterpoint 🤐  

[bicketybam]

18 minutes ago, slats said:

I think you’re reading it wrong. He came to the team with $110M fully guaranteed left on the two years left on his deal. He signed a three year contract worth $112M, with only $75M guaranteed. The only way he makes that $37M is by playing for it in 2025. 
 
If he does that, sure, you can say he made all the money he originally had coming to him, but he will have had to play a third year to get it. If I’m now making the same amount of money over three years that I was previously gonna make over two, I’d say that’s pretty effectively a pay cut. 

Give or take a few thousand, this is absolutely correct. 

It's like some who works 40 hours a week at $20/hr having their pay cut to $15 and the boss telling him he can work Saturday ans Sunday and he will actually come out $40 ahead. Look! He got a raise! 🤣

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

One last point (I say to no one in particular, possibly just to the wall).  We can't have it both ways and write win now at any cost and then complain when meeting soon to be 30 year old Reddick's demands for a lucrative extension cost us one of Breece Hall, Garrett Wilson, or Sauce Gardner.    

Reddick wins with speed/quickness, elements that will only decline as he gets into his 30s.  Whether there was a miscommunication or bad bet when JD made the trade, a smart GM doesn't perpetuate that mistake to justify a trade that really didn't cost that much.

The safe bet is to recognize Reddick risks throwing away more career money by sitting out for an extended period of time.  He maximizes his earnings by showing up and playing great!  Play for the next contract.  Not by trying to force the Jets to make up for what he might view as an underpayment for past performance.  The market has spoken on his current worth when no team offered the Eagles anything more than the Jets ... meaning there wasn't a line of teams willing to give up what amounts to a mid round 2025 pick (equivalent to a 2026 3rd rounder) for a 30 year old speed rusher, let alone offer him a top of market multi year extension.

The 2 bridges I see:

1. Increase guaranteed pay to offset the penalties

2. Create additional incentives for 2024.  If he reaches 13 sacks for example, he earns an additional $3M to get him to $20M

My guess is Reddick signs up for the above after Will McDonald has a good game (and sack) against the 49ers.

    

 

[Larz]

Anyway I’m happy that JD has more flexibility now. 

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

2 minutes ago, Larz said:

Anyway I’m happy that JD has more flexibility now. 

And I'm happy when you're happy