Just say no to Graham

[madmike1]

I think it's safe to say you are in the minority on that one.

Thats fine. But I've felt he was overrated since he was drafted and nothing that has happened has changed my mind

[madmike1]

Wow...how pathetic are you that that's the best you can do? Do you HAVE any comebacks to my challenges to your flimsy theories or are you drowning as badly as you seem to be?

More typo/spelling comments...quite telling. I mean come on Mr. Know It All...enlighten me with somehting other than your knowledge of Strunk & White.

You know whats drowning? When someone makes fun of your shoddy spelling and then the NEXT FRIGGIN POST you misspell another word LMAO.

[MSGold12]

Thats fine. But I've felt he was overrated since he was drafted and nothing that has happened has changed my mind

Sure...nothing other than those 3 MVP level seasons! LOL!!!!

[124]

how can you judge "red zone" clutchness? Do you think his catch vs the Jets in the playoff game was the product of being such a great clutch player or maybe it was that Brad "i suck" Kassell blew the coverage and left him wide open? If i felt that Graham was a productive player don't you think i'd want the jets to grab him from the pats? He's just not that good dude.

No, that catch was one hell of a catch though, Brady had very good accuracy on that pass. That is not the deciding factor as I do not judge players by one or two games. You see a lot of the Patriots and a lot of what they do and if you've watched Graham he is one hell of a blocker and a red zone target.

I'm sorry but if you want to see the numbers out of Chris Baker, you will NOT until we get a legitmate pass protecting Tight End in here and Daniel Graham is exactly that, Sean Ryan or some other scrub is not.

[MSGold12]

You know whats drowning? When someone makes fun of your shoddy spelling and then the NEXT FRIGGIN POST you misspell another word LMAO.

U realli R provin 2 B a wast uv tim. Do yu hav any substantive cumbaks or can you du nuthin mor then tri to deflect yur lak of knowlege with gramtical insults????

I mean really dude...you obviously have nothing. And for the record, there is an apostrophe in "what's". I mean if you want to get technical.

[madmike1]

Sure...nothing other than those 3 MVP level seasons! LOL!!!!

It's 2 great seasons and they were both in pristine weather environments with great teams around him (good look at Chad's numbers in domes if you don't believe me) and both ended with playoff flops. He's won less playoff games then Chad has with A LOT less talent

[madmike1]

No, that catch was one hell of a catch though, Brady had very good accuracy on that pass. That is not the deciding factor as I do not judge players by one or two games. You see a lot of the Patriots and a lot of what they do and if you've watched Graham he is one hell of a blocker and a red zone target.

I'm sorry but if you want to see the numbers out of Chris Baker, you will NOT until we get a legitmate pass protecting Tight End in here and Daniel Graham is exactly that, Sean Ryan or some other scrub is not.

I'm very confident that if the Jets FO feels that they need a run blocking TE that they could easily address that spot in the mid rounds of the draft with a guy like Matt Sapeth or other guys who I don't know about right now...

[MSGold12]

It's 2 great seasons and they were both in pristine weather environments with great teams around him (good look at Chad's numbers in domes if you don't believe me) and both ended with playoff flops. He's won less playoff games then Chad has with A LOT less talent

Actually, the correct grammar would be he won "fewer" playoff games not "less" playoff games.

Brees also played games in Denver and KC every year as well as other non division road games...but why let fact get in your way. And since when was SD ever "great"?

[The Troll]

playing with the best player in the world. that guy makes everyone around him look great. if chad played with him he would put up great numbers too.

In 2004, LaDainian Tomlinson had 1,335 yards rushing.

Curtis Martin had 1,697 yards rushing.

Drew Brees threw for 27 touchdowns with only 7 interceptions.

Chad Pennington threw for 16 TDs and 9 INTs.

So, in a year where Curtis Martin actually outperformed LT, Chad was STILL blown away by Brees.

In the past three years (47 GP), Drew Brees has 77 touchdowns and 33 interceptions.

In his career as a starter (55 GP), Chad Pennington has 70 touchdowns and 46 interceptions.

[madmike1]

In 2004, LaDainian Tomlinson had 1,335 yards rushing.

Curtis Martin had 1,697 yards rushing.

Drew Brees threw for 27 touchdowns with only 7 interceptions.

Chad Pennington threw for 16 TDs and 9 INTs.

So, in a year where Curtis Martin actually outperformed LT, Chad was STILL blown away by Brees.

In the past three years (47 GP), Drew Brees has 77 touchdowns and 33 interceptions.

In his career as a starter (55 GP), Chad Pennington has 70 touchdowns and 46 interceptions.

Your idea of blown away is way off base. Sure chad had less TD's but he missed 3 games in 04 and wasn't 100% for a few of those others and he topped the season off OUTPLAYING BREES head to head in a playoff game and ended his season.

And yet again Brees played in a perfect location for QB's that year while Chad played in the meadowlands where the wind clearly effects him.

[The Troll]

Your idea of blown away is way off base. Sure chad had less TD's but he missed 3 games in 04 and wasn't 100% for a few of those others and he topped the season off OUTPLAYING BREES head to head in a playoff game and ended his season.

And yet again Brees played in a perfect location for QB's that year while Chad played in the meadowlands where the wind clearly effects him.

I guess you did not read that very carefully.

I showed Drew Brees' numbers over the past three seasons. I showed Chad Pennington's numbers IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER AS A STARTER. Brees still slaughtered him, despite the fact that Pennington had an eight game advantage.

Whether or not Chad outplayed Brees is debatable. Brees threw for 319 yards and 2 scores with a pick. If Chad Pennington had put up a playoff performance like that, we'd still be hearing how great he is from the likes of yourself and ecurb. Besides, even if Chad did outplay him by the slightest of margins, what does that mean? Does it mean that Ben Roethlisberger is better than Peyton Manning? He outplayed him in the playoffs. Is Rex Grossman better than Matt Hasselbeck? Must be. He outplayed him in the playoffs. Using that logic, it also means that Jake Plummer is better than Tom Brady. Any logic that can take you to that conslusion...I mean, wow. That is superb logic.

[madmike1]

I guess you did not read that very carefully.

I showed Drew Brees' numbers over the past three seasons. I showed Chad Pennington's numbers IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER AS A STARTER. Brees still slaughtered him, despite the fact that Pennington had an eight game advantage.

Whether or not Chad outplayed Brees is debatable. Brees threw for 319 yards and 2 scores with a pick. If Chad Pennington had put up a playoff performance like that, we'd still be hearing how great he is from the likes of yourself and ecurb. Besides, even if Chad did outplay him by the slightest of margins, what does that mean? Does it mean that Ben Roethlisberger is better than Peyton Manning? He outplayed him in the playoffs. Is Rex Grossman better than Matt Hasselbeck? Must be. He outplayed him in the playoffs. Using that logic, it also means that Jake Plummer is better than Tom Brady. Any logic that can take you to that conslusion...I mean, wow. That is superb logic.

Why do you ignore one of my main points that brees has had the HUGE advantage in playing in perfect conditions most of his career? All you have to do is look at Chad's dome numbers to know that there is something to that point and that if brees came to the jets you wouldn't get anywhere near the performance out of him that he's put up in perfect conditions.

[The Troll]

Why do you ignore one of my main points that brees has had the HUGE advantage in playing in perfect conditions most of his career? All you have to do is look at Chad's dome numbers to know that there is something to that point and that if brees came to the jets you wouldn't get anywhere near the performance out of him that he's put up in perfect conditions.

And why did you ignore my ENTIRE post, which pretty much owned you? After I answer you here, before you respond to this, I want you to go back and refute that post. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

How about when Drew Brees threw for 353 yards and 2 TDs at Green Bay this year?

Or when he threw for 398 yards and a touchdown at Pittsburgh?

How about throwing for 354 yards and two touchdowns in the NFC Championship game at CHICAGO in JANUARY? Great weather there in the Windy City. In the snow.

Going back further, at New England in 2005, Brees threw for 248 and two scores in a 41-17 victory. He hung 40 on the Pats AT the Razor. When is the last time Chad hung 40 on anyone? Indy...five years ago?

How about when Brees threw for 270 and a touchdown a year ago in the dastardly Meadowlands, in route to beating the Jets?

Drew Brees is better than Chad, PERIOD. He has a stronger arm, he is more mobile, he improvises better, he is just as accurate, and yes, he is SMARTER. Drew Brees is what Chad Pennington wishes he was.

[madmike1]

And why did you ignore my ENTIRE post, which pretty much owned you? After I answer you here, before you respond to this, I want you to go back and refute that post. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

How about when Drew Brees threw for 353 yards and 2 TDs at Green Bay this year?

Or when he threw for 398 yards and a touchdown at Pittsburgh?

How about throwing for 354 yards and two touchdowns in the NFC Championship game at CHICAGO in JANUARY? Great weather there in the Windy City. In the snow.

Going back further, at New England in 2005, Brees threw for 248 and two scores in a 41-17 victory. He hung 40 on the Pats AT the Razor. When is the last time Chad hung 40 on anyone? Indy...five years ago?

How about when Brees threw for 270 and a touchdown a year ago in the dastardly Meadowlands, in route to beating the Jets?

Drew Brees is better than Chad, PERIOD. He has a stronger arm, he is more mobile, he improvises better, he is just as accurate, and yes, he is SMARTER. Drew Brees is what Chad Pennington wishes he was.

You can pull out great games on the road for every QB but since you have a clear chad bashing agenda no matter what i say you'll just pull out another small sample size stat to bash chad which is fine. Chad has also had good games in bad weather but he's played the majority of his career in conditions that are MUCH less favorite to QB's then brees has There is no way to prove that Brees would play a lot worse if he had played under different conditions for full seasons or that chad would've played better under better conditions so thats purely a matter of opinion. If you're right and Brees is so much better then Chad why havn't his teams done ANYTHING in the playoffs. How many home games has Chad lost in the playoffs? Less then Brees has. Brees is a short small QB with an arm which is marginally better then Chad who has been in perfect situations to win and look better then he is. I don't know how you can quantify who's smarter but since you just love Chad bashing why not bash his intelligence too lol.

[madmike1]

I would love to see brees play a season without hall of fame offensive players around him and i would love to see chad play a year in a dome. Then this argument would be very different.

[Alk]

I would love to see brees play a season without hall of fame offensive players around him and i would love to see chad play a year in a dome. Then this argument would be very different.

Name one HOF offensive player playing for the Saints right now.

[madmike1]

Name one HOF offensive player playing for the Saints right now.

He has star offensive players all around him. I don't have to list them.

[Alk]

He has star offensive players all around him. I don't have to list them.

You said HOF, not star.

[The Troll]

I would love to see brees play a season without hall of fame offensive players around him and i would love to see chad play a year in a dome. Then this argument would be very different.

You know what's hilarious about that argument?

2006 was the first season in which CHAD PENNINGTON didn't get to hand off to a Hall of Fame running back. The result: 17 TDs, 16 INTs.

[madmike1]

You said HOF, not star.

I was talking about more when he playings with the Chargers. But even with the saints he has MUCH more talented play makers around him then Chad does.

[madmike1]

You know what's hilarious about that argument?

2006 was the first season in which CHAD PENNINGTON didn't get to hand off to a Hall of Fame running back. The result: 17 TDs, 16 INTs.

When has Brees been on a team with ZERO running game to take pressure off him?

[The Troll]

You can pull out great games on the road for every QB but since you have a clear chad bashing agenda no matter what i say you'll just pull out another small sample size stat to bash chad which is fine. Chad has also had good games in bad weather but he's played the majority of his career in conditions that are MUCH less favorite to QB's then brees has There is no way to prove that Brees would play a lot worse if he had played under different conditions for full seasons or that chad would've played better under better conditions so thats purely a matter of opinion. If you're right and Brees is so much better then Chad why havn't his teams done ANYTHING in the playoffs. How many home games has Chad lost in the playoffs? Less then Brees has. Brees is a short small QB with an arm which is marginally better then Chad who has been in perfect situations to win and look better then he is. I don't know how you can quantify who's smarter but since you just love Chad bashing why not bash his intelligence too lol.

Alright, let me put this in giant letters so maybe you can get it through your tiny, yet amazingly thick skull:

RESPOND TO THIS POST, WHICH YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED:

I guess you did not read that very carefully.

I showed Drew Brees' numbers over the past three seasons. I showed Chad Pennington's numbers IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER AS A STARTER. Brees still slaughtered him, despite the fact that Pennington had an eight game advantage.

Whether or not Chad outplayed Brees is debatable. Brees threw for 319 yards and 2 scores with a pick. If Chad Pennington had put up a playoff performance like that, we'd still be hearing how great he is from the likes of yourself and ecurb. Besides, even if Chad did outplay him by the slightest of margins, what does that mean? Does it mean that Ben Roethlisberger is better than Peyton Manning? He outplayed him in the playoffs. Is Rex Grossman better than Matt Hasselbeck? Must be. He outplayed him in the playoffs. Using that logic, it also means that Jake Plummer is better than Tom Brady. Any logic that can take you to that conslusion...I mean, wow. That is superb logic.

[madmike1]

Alright, let me put this in giant letters so maybe you can get it through your tiny, yet amazingly thick skull:

RESPOND TO THIS POST, WHICH YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED:

You don't respond to my posts so why should i respond to your personal insults? I'm done arguing with you. You clearly will not give Chad a fair shake no matter what he does and nothing I say will change that. I'm tired of your condescending crap.

[The Troll]

When has Brees been on a team with ZERO running game to take pressure off him?

I'm sorry, but you can't change the rules as you go along. You originally said "Let's see what Brees can do when he isn't surrounded by Hall of Famers", after which it was pointed out that a.)Chad Pennington has always been in the huddle with a Hall of Famer, and b.)Brees threw for 4,418 yards and 26 touchdowns this year in a Hall of Famer-less offense.

Now, after you've been blown out of the water for making that assinine comment, it's "Let's see what Brees can do without a running game". Clever.

I got one for you: Let's see what Chad Pennington can do whenever his top two receivers are rookies, one of which is a seventh round pick. Let's also see what he can whenever his lone veteran receiver gets hurt, and he is left to distribute the ball around to two rookies (one a seventh rounder), a third year receiver with 22 career receptions, and a journeyman special teams player with a whopping 8 career catches. My guess: Chad won't throw for 4,418 yards and 26 touchdowns. Whether he plays in the Meadowlands, the SuperDome, Qualcomm Stadium, or CandyLand.

[The Troll]

You don't respond to my posts so why should i respond to your personal insults? I'm done arguing with you. You clearly will not give Chad a fair shake no matter what he does and nothing I say will change that. I'm tired of your condescending crap.

I have responded to every post you have made towards me in this thread.

You refuse to respond to that one because you have no response to it. You were owned. And, rather than be a man about it, you refuse to even acknowledge its existence, and instead resort to calling me condescending.

[MSGold12]

I have responded to every post you have made towards me in this thread.

You refuse to respond to that one because you have no response to it. You were owned. And, rather than be a man about it, you refuse to even acknowledge its existence, and instead resort to calling me condescending.

Don't be too surprised Troll. When I painted him into a corner he started picking apart my spelling and typos and then insulting me! Ironic and hypocritical since he just accussed you of insulting him.

When you have nothing to retort with or your theories have had massive holes blown through them, you have to resort to sorry ass things like picking out typos and ignoring and deflecting points you cannot answer. Look, anyone who is going to seriously argue that up to this point Pennington is beter than Brees clearly has no objectivity or credibility. I love the jets and I like Chad but that is ridiculous.

(I haven't spell checked this post so I am sure he'll try and find a misspelling or to to pounce on to attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that I buried him on both the Graham issue and the Brees issue and he had no answer for my shredding of his flimsy theories.)

[Ten]

So now I am "delusional"...anohter nice substantive comeback.

So you think Baker (wiht his 4.8 speed) has a better ability to stretch a D then Graham deos with his 4.6 speed? Intersting logic.

And let me be very clear that I am a 40 year Jets fan so your accusing me of being a Patsie fan doesnt reallyt work as a comeback.

Fact is Graham is a better blocker then Baker. He was such a good blocker they kept him in to protect Matt Light and that hurt his receiving numbers. He has better speed then Baker does and beter separation ability then baker does. Baker is a fine player and Graham woud compliment him perfectly. But when exactly did Chris Baker become Kellen Winslow? Hes a decent TE at best. You telling me we should bother to look to upgrade the position wioht aguy who is faster and a better blocker?

And please try and comeback with something resembling at least SOME sort of arguement as opposed to calling me a Pats fan calling me delusional. I mena you were the guy agreeing wiht the genius that had Baker running 4.4s.

Neither Baker or Graham are going to be stretch the field with 4.6 speed,arguing about straight line speed for a tight end is kind of pointless unless it's under 4.5.Baker does have a better first step and quickness off the snap,which is a lot more useful for getting seperation in the short areas of the field that tight ends are required to work.

I do reckon there is a solid chance that we'll sign Graham as Mangini does like his blocking tight ends.But I don't believe it will be that big of an upgrade,it won't be like having an extra o-lineman or a 6 ft 7 target in the end zone,he's not as good a receiver as Baker (that is my opinion but if you disagree,you can't say Graham is that much better)and he's no Jason Dunn when it comes to blocking.The reason we'd probably sign him would be because of his familiarity with Mangini.

[MSGold12]

Neither Baker or Graham are going to be stretch the field with 4.6 speed,arguing about straight line speed for a tight end is kind of pointless unless it's under 4.5.Baker does have a better first step and quickness off the snap,which is a lot more useful for getting seperation in the short areas of the field that tight ends are required to work.

I do reckon there is a solid chance that we'll sign Graham as Mangini does like his blocking tight ends.But I don't believe it will be that big of an upgrade,it won't be like having an extra o-lineman or a 6 ft 7 target in the end zone,he's not as good a receiver as Baker (that is my opinion but if you disagree,you can't say Graham is that much better)and he's no Jason Dunn when it comes to blocking.The reason we'd probably sign him would be because of his familiarity with Mangini.

Graham has more of a second gear that Baker does not. Neihter is a speed merchant but Graham has shown the ability to get open deep when given the chance in NE. To categorize Graham as a "blocking TE" is just not accurate. I think he is a more dangerous weapon then baker and is one of the best run blocking TEs in the game.

[Ten]

Graham has more of a second gear that Baker does not. Neihter is a speed merchant but Graham has shown the ability to get open deep when given the chance in NE. To categorize Graham as a "blocking TE" is just not accurate. I think he is a more dangerous weapon then baker and is one of the best run blocking TEs in the game.

I disagree.He can't of been that good a deep threat if they drafted Watson to act as a deep threat and create match up problems.Besides it's not as if we a QB who could take advantage of a tight end who can get open downfield anyway.I just don't really consider Graham(or Baker for that matter) a weapon,they are solid tight ends who work the short areas of the field.

[MSGold12]

I disagree.He can't of been that good a deep threat if they drafted Watson to act as a deep threat and create match up problems.Besides it's not as if we a QB who could take advantage of a tight end who can get open downfield anyway.I just don't really consider Graham(or Baker for that matter) a weapon,they are solid tight ends who work the short areas of the field.

They draftee watson because graham had a case of the dropsies and was getting hurt a lot his first two years. But his ability to get deep wasnot the problem...as any Pats fan.

As i said, neither in Kellen Winslow circa 1980 but Graham can provide more down field ability then baker can and is a terrific blocker.