Draft list

[pjam76]

Personally, I almost stopped reading after the bolded terms.

Mangold has been our best OL by far and Dbrick has improved.

The problem is Mangini also had a 34 year old avg baby LG in PKendall and two pieces of sh!t tackles in a washed up Fabini and Adrian Jones. Thats the OL he inhereted. Hopefully we can find a solid G and/or T in the draft and groom Bender to play whichever of those positions we arent able to fill via the draft.

Im not saying we should take Jake Long, I have no idea what we should do. I just dont think we should use a top 5 pick on a RB that wont be more then average on a team lacking both on Defense and on the OL.

Mangold is our best OL, no doubt.. DBrick is what he is and seems like a nice OL, but not great.

For me, I'd like to see McFadden or a top tier DL taken in the first round, then an OL in the 2nd and 3rd Rounds and DL and defensive players the rest of the way. I'd also like to see Chad Johnson traded for and Faneca or another veteran OL like Faneca traded for. That would give the Jets at least 4 decent OL.

My problem with the OL is that he didn't inherit anything really. At this point in time, the OL is Mangini's. If it stinks, it's because he didn't bring in good draft picks or FA, not because Herm and Bradway screwed it up.

[gangreenman]

Mangold is our best OL, no doubt.. DBrick is what he is and seems like a nice OL, but not great.

For me, I'd like to see McFadden or a top tier DL taken in the first round, then an OL in the 2nd and 3rd Rounds and DL and defensive players the rest of the way. I'd also like to see Chad Johnson taken.

My problem with the OL is that he didn't inherit anything really. At this point in time, the OL is Mangini's. If it stinks, it's because he didn't bring in good draft picks or FA, not because Herm and Bradway screwed it up.

He inhereted a pile of SH!T.

Herm's OL after his final year in NY:

LT- Fabini ( has-been, washed up)

LG-Kendall

C-Mawae (older player on the downside of a great career due to injuries-leadership also questioned)

RG-Moore-(he's got average written all over him)

RT-Adrian Jones (Teriible, just awful)

After just two offseasons our OL is now:

LT: DBrick (just as good if not better then Fabini-but much younger)

LG: Clarke (Bad player)

C: Mangold (great OL-very young)

RG: Moore (see above)

RT: Clement (On the older side but still better then AJones by A LOT)

So in two years on the job, Mangini has improved the 3 weakest positions on the OL and will probably look into drafting another G or T this year.

As for who we should draft and when, I hate doing this because it all depends on whose available at eache position.

[pjam76]

He inhereted a pile of SH!T.

Herm's OL after his final year in NY:

LT- Fabini ( has-been, washed up)

LG-Kendall

C-Mawae (older player on the downside of a great career due to injuries-leadership also questioned)

RG-Moore-(he's got average written all over him)

RT-Adrian Jones (Teriible, just awful)

After just two offseasons our OL is now:

LT: DBrick (just as good if not better then Fabini-but much younger)

LG: Clarke (Bad player)

C: Mangold (great OL-very young)

RG: Moore (see above)

RT: Clement (On the older side but still better then AJones by A LOT)

So in two years on the job, Mangini has improved the 3 weakest positions on the OL and will probably look into drafting another G or T this year.

As for who we should draft and when, I hate doing this because it all depends on whose available at eache position.

The problem is the OL still stinks. So even with 5 new starters, the OL isn't any better now than it was in 2005. Improving means it gets better and they haven't.

Maybe it's more about coaching than the players they have.. Because as you say, if they improved 3 weak positions, it should have gotten better by now.

And I don't agree that Mangold is great. He's good, but great to me means pro bowl, and he isn't a pro bowl player yet... He could be next year, who knows, but we don't know for sure and as stated, great means Pro Bowl player to me.

[gangreenman]

The problem is the OL still stinks. So even with 5 new starters, the OL isn't any better now than it was in 2005. Improving means it gets better and they haven't.

Maybe it's more about coaching than the players they have.. Because as you say, if they improved 3 weak positions, it should have gotten better by now.

And I don't agree that Mangold is great. He's good, but great to me means pro bowl, and he isn't a pro bowl player yet... He could be next year, who knows, but we don't know for sure and as stated, great means Pro Bowl player to me.

Dude, were you watching in 05?

the OL between then and now is worlds apart, to say the least.

I think Mangold has been great, and I disagree that you have to make a pro bowl in order to be great.

[pjam76]

Dude, were you watching in 05?

the OL between then and now is worlds apart, to say the least.

I think Mangold has been great, and I disagree that you have to make a pro bowl in order to be great.

How is it worlds apart?

They can't pass protect. They can't run. Um, if you name on thing this offensive line does do well at this point, I'd say, you're right, but the 2005 team of backups stunk. The 2007 team still stinks.

I just don't get how you say a team with 1 Rushing TD all season long and very few Passing TDs on top of an line that can't pass block or run block is better..

The Object of the OL is to block people. Since they can't, how is it better?

[Barton]

pjam, be serious. Mangini took over a team in 2005 that needed a completely new offensive line. This Oline from 06-07 is worlds better than the 2005 Oline.

There is still work that needs to be done on the Oline. But the cornerstone pieces are already in place and yes, you can thank Mangini and Tannenbaum for that.

[pjam76]

pjam, be serious. Mangini took over a team in 2005 that needed a completely new offensive line. This Oline from 06-07 is worlds better than the 2005 Oline.

There is still work that needs to be done on the Oline. But the cornerstone pieces are already in place and yes, you can thank Mangini and Tannenbaum for that.

That makes no sense. If the OL in 2007 is worlds better than the 2005 OL, then we have to assume Chad, KC, and Thomas Jones suck.

Be real. If the OL was worlds better this season, they should be able to rush for a first down on 3rd and 1 or score a TD on 4th and goal from the 5.

The 2005 team was filled with scrubs, backups, and a 3rd string QB. THe 2007 OL is filled with 2 first round picks, another player who should be better than he is, and then bunch of scrubs...

Worlds better means 3rd and 1 isn't a punt down. I'm sorry but this OL isn't any better than the 2005 OL. Otherwise, people wouldn't be claiming the OL is the biggest need in the offseason.

[Jet Moses]

That makes no sense. If the OL in 2007 is worlds better than the 2005 OL, then we have to assume Chad, KC, and Thomas Jones suck.

Be real. If the OL was worlds better this season, they should be able to rush for a first down on 3rd and 1 or score a TD on 4th and goal from the 5.

The 2005 team was filled with scrubs, backups, and a 3rd string QB. THe 2007 OL is filled with 2 first round picks, another player who should be better than he is, and then bunch of scrubs...

Worlds better means 3rd and 1 isn't a punt down. I'm sorry but this OL isn't any better than the 2005 OL. Otherwise, people wouldn't be claiming the OL is the biggest need in the offseason.

I liked when you said in the game day thread "in garbage time they can't even punch it in on 3rd and goal... what a disgrace"

Actually by that point there wasn't anything else they could do to humiliate me as a fan. Right before the game, me and my friend Kevin went on the porch for a smoke, and he started doing his Rodney Dangerfield and George Bush impressions and I was laughing, then I was like, "he the games gonna start" and he goes, "you aint missing anything. It'll be 7 nothing Cowboys a minute after it starts" and no sh*t thats about what happened.

[Barton]

That makes no sense. If the OL in 2007 is worlds better than the 2005 OL, then we have to assume Chad, KC, and Thomas Jones suck.

Be real. If the OL was worlds better this season, they should be able to rush for a first down on 3rd and 1 or score a TD on 4th and goal from the 5.

The 2005 team was filled with scrubs, backups, and a 3rd string QB. THe 2007 OL is filled with 2 first round picks, another player who should be better than he is, and then bunch of scrubs...

Worlds better means 3rd and 1 isn't a punt down. I'm sorry but this OL isn't any better than the 2005 OL. Otherwise, people wouldn't be claiming the OL is the biggest need in the offseason.

I think we are all forgetting how terrible the 2005 Oline was. It got 3 QBs killed for damn sake.

The Jets have probably the worst LG and RT in the entire AFC. Yet aside from the cowboys game and 1 or 2 others, the pass protection this season has been solid. Once we upgrade at those 2 positions, the Oline will be very good as long as we have a competent QB.

[JetCane]

Herm took over a good team and made them worse, Mangini took over a pile of sh*t and is in the process of backing up the toilet.

LOL

[pjam76]

I think we are all forgetting how terrible the 2005 Oline was. It got 3 QBs killed for damn sake.

The Jets have probably the worst LG and RT in the entire AFC. Yet aside from the cowboys game and 1 or 2 others, the pass protection this season has been solid. Once we upgrade at those 2 positions, the Oline will be very good as long as we have a competent QB.

The problem with that theory is injuries. Don't they say the avg number of injuries per year in the NFL per team is like 6 or 7. So if you have 4 decent OL, and suddenly 1 of those guys goes down, you're back to square one. Then what's the point?

If you look around the NFL, good teams find ways to replace players. The Jets can't even replace Pete Kendall. And since they can't even find a way to add 1 or 2 avg OL, that is a serious flaw in building a contender.

I mean the Colts might as well just give up and call it a day since their HOF star WR has been hurt, 4 of their OL from last season aren't starting, are injured, or retired, and their RB is injured.

This regime is not getting a pass for the offense. Most of the players now starting on the offense have been picked by Mangin, Tanni and Schotty. If the offense sucks, it's their fault, not Herm and Bradways.

[Jet Moses]

LOL

[Barton]

The problem with that theory is injuries. Don't they say the avg number of injuries per year in the NFL per team is like 6 or 7. So if you have 4 decent OL, and suddenly 1 of those guys goes down, you're back to square one. Then what's the point?

If you look around the NFL, good teams find ways to replace players. The Jets can't even replace Pete Kendall. And since they can't even find a way to add 1 or 2 avg OL, that is a serious flaw in building a contender.

I mean the Colts might as well just give up and call it a day since their HOF star WR has been hurt, 4 of their OL from last season aren't starting, are injured, or retired, and their RB is injured.

This regime is not getting a pass for the offense. Most of the players now starting on the offense have been picked by Mangin, Tanni and Schotty. If the offense sucks, it's their fault, not Herm and Bradways.

Talk to me in a couple of years. You dont just overhaul an offense and turn it from dogsh#t to filet mignon in 2 years, (unless the franchise QB is already in place and it was not for us obviously).

[Jet Moses]

Damnit we could have had Matt Leinfart!

[JetCane]

This regime is not getting a pass for the offense. Most of the players now starting on the offense have been picked by Mangin, Tanni and Schotty. If the offense sucks, it's their fault, not Herm and Bradways.

In that regard, this is begging to be photochopped.

[NYjet10]

Minnesota needs a QB how about we trade chad for steve hutchinson? or Chad and Vilma for hutchinson?

[pjam76]

Talk to me in a couple of years. You dont just overhaul an offense and turn it from dogsh#t to filet mignon in 2 years, (unless the franchise QB is already in place and it was not for us obviously).

Seems to me Cleveland's offense overhauled in one year. They even traded their starting QB and went with some guy nobody cared to think about.

If it takes 5 years to overhaul an offense, you become the Texans and 49ers and Lions. Not exactly something to strive for.

[Barton]

Seems to me Cleveland's offense overhauled in one year. They even traded their starting QB and went with some guy nobody cared to think about.

If it takes 5 years to overhaul an offense, you become the Texans and 49ers and Lions. Not exactly something to strive for.

Bro, the browns offense has sucked for years and years and years. Where have you been, under a rock? It took them years to build that garbage pile up to something decent.

[pjam76]

Bro, the browns offense has sucked for years and years and years. Where have you been, under a rock? It took them years to build that garbage pile up to something decent.

Cleveland's offense isn't that impressive but they drafted an OL and now are scoring a ton of points... They were bad last season, they are now a good offense this season. They made a ton of bad moves over the years....

The Jets took 2 OL in the first round and the OL still stinks 2 seasons later. 2 first round OL should improve the line a little otherwise they aren't very good or the coaching staff aren't making them better.

And the funny thing is people are calling Vince Young and Matt Leinart's busts. They are calling Reggie Bush not that impressive, yet at the same time the same people proclaim DBRick should get more time to show what he's capable of.. GO figure.

[gangreenman]

Cleveland's offense isn't that impressive but they drafted an OL and now are scoring a ton of points... They were bad last season, they are now a good offense this season. They made a ton of bad moves over the years....

The Jets took 2 OL in the first round and the OL still stinks 2 seasons later. 2 first round OL should improve the line a little otherwise they aren't very good or the coaching staff aren't making them better.

And the funny thing is people are calling Vince Young and Matt Leinart's busts. They are calling Reggie Bush not that impressive, yet at the same time the same people proclaim DBRick should get more time to show what he's capable of.. GO figure.

Right, but unlike the Jets, the Browns didn't completely waste years 2001-2005 by adding ZERO good, yoiung, players to the line on either side of the ball under a coach and FO that had houseplants for IQ's.

When Mangini took over, this team was full of old and/or chitty players.

Two years later we're already starting to see improvements in some areas.

Give it another few years, then come back to me.

[pjam76]

Right, but unlike the Jets, the Browns didn't completely waste years 2001-2005 by adding ZERO good, yoiung, players to the line on either side of the ball under a coach and FO that had houseplants for IQ's.

When Mangini took over, this team was full of old and/or chitty players.

Two years later we're already starting to see improvements in some areas.

Give it another few years, then come back to me.

Um, yeah the Browns were a team that drafted Tim Couch, William Greene, even overrated Winslow Jr. Not exactly shining moments on how to draft.

And how can you honestly say there are improvements. In 2004 they should have beat the Steelers in the playoffs. They had a really good defense. In 2005, they had injuries, a coach that was leaving and they went 4-12....

2 seasons later they could wind up 3-13 or 2-14 and the OL still stinks and the defense is giving up 150+ rushing yards per game. That's not improving.

Going into next season they still need 3 new OL, a new WR(maybe another if Coles doesn't come back), they need a whole new DL, they need another CB, they need a safety, they need another LB.

Basically they've added 4 decent starters in 2 seasons. Mangold, Revis, Harris, and DBRick. Not great starters yet, but at least decent and they should improve. But other than that, nothing else has panned out with much success..

Washington is a nice special teams player, but so was Justin Miller. Smith is a trick player. Thomas Jones is an old avg RB who probably won't even be here in 2-3 years.

The problem I have is if you look at the starting Offenses for the Colts or Patriots the last few weeks, it's not exactly the same lineup as a year ago. Injuries, trade, free agency and so on and suddenly you have to be able to rebuild and revamp your roster every year.

If it takes 5 years to rebuild, it probably means you'll never be any good.

A team that is heading for a 3-13 season in Year Two is not improving, it's getting worse.

[gangreenman]

Um, yeah the Browns were a team that drafted Tim Couch, William Greene, even overrated Winslow Jr. Not exactly shining moments on how to draft.

And how can you honestly say there are improvements. In 2004 they should have beat the Steelers in the playoffs. They had a really good defense. In 2005, they had injuries, a coach that was leaving and they went 4-12....

2 seasons later they could wind up 3-13 or 2-14 and the OL still stinks and the defense is giving up 150+ rushing yards per game. That's not improving.

Going into next season they still need 3 new OL, a new WR(maybe another if Coles doesn't come back), they need a whole new DL, they need another CB, they need a safety, they need another LB.

Basically they've added 4 decent starters in 2 seasons. Mangold, Revis, Harris, and DBRick. Not great starters yet, but at least decent and they should improve. But other than that, nothing else has panned out with much success..

Washington is a nice special teams player, but so was Justin Miller. Smith is a trick player. Thomas Jones is an old avg RB who probably won't even be here in 2-3 years.

The problem I have is if you look at the starting Offenses for the Colts or Patriots the last few weeks, it's not exactly the same lineup as a year ago. Injuries, trade, free agency and so on and suddenly you have to be able to rebuild and revamp your roster every year.

If it takes 5 years to rebuild, it probably means you'll never be any good.

A team that is heading for a 3-13 season in Year Two is not improving, it's getting worse.

Would you like to know what changes Herm made in his 5 years with the Jets?

DL: Ferguson for DRob

OL:

McKenzie for Kendall

Added Brandon Moore and Adrian Jones - forget who they replaced.

5 years, he made 3 changes on both sides and only two of them are still around now. and one of them (Drob) is a complete joke. Hpw can you say it hasnt improved under 2 years of Mangini??

As to your 3-13 argument... When you have a pretty much dormant HC and FO for five years, the players will get older and as a result the team will eventually get worse. However, now that we have a coach/FO capable of drafting and has the guts to make a trade for the likes of TJones, we can at least look forward to the future.

[pjam76]

Would you like to know what changes Herm made in his 5 years with the Jets?

DL: Ferguson for DRob

OL:

McKenzie for Kendall

Added Brandon Moore and Adrian Jones - forget who they replaced.

5 years, he made 3 changes on both sides and only two of them is still around now. and one of them (Drob) is a complete joke. Hpw can you say it hasnt improved under 2 years of Mangini??

They brought in Vilma and a few other defensive players... I wanted herm and bradway out like everybody else, but the reality is, how has the DL improved under Mangini? They haven't done a damn thing to fix it..

They did draft Mangold and DBrick, but the reality is, the OL still sucks. If it takes 5 great OL for this team to become good, they'll never win..

Like i said, the Colts played a month without 3 starting OL, without a HOF WR, without their starting RB...... It's called you have to adapt.

Hoping that the Jets get 5 good OL who will lead the way for 10 years is just unrealistic. With 2 first round OL the OL still sucks. What changes next season? They draft another OL and hope he doesn't get hurt or Mangold'/DBRick start bickering about more money.

At some point the team needs to improve... All I hear are excuses.. First it was Chad wasn't good enough and that's why the OL can't run block. Now it's KC is in his 2nd, 3rd, no 4th game.. They can't really pass block and they can't run block.

If you think that's getting better, I have a house to sell you that has some nice furniture and blinds, but the roof leaks and the basement is cracking, but hey, it's only been 2 years and you think it looks better than it once did.

[pjam76]

Would you like to know what changes Herm made in his 5 years with the Jets?

DL: Ferguson for DRob

OL:

McKenzie for Kendall

Added Brandon Moore and Adrian Jones - forget who they replaced.

5 years, he made 3 changes on both sides and only two of them is still around now. and one of them (Drob) is a complete joke. Hpw can you say it hasnt improved under 2 years of Mangini??

As to your 3-13 argument... When you have a pretty much dormant HC and FO for five years, the players will get older and as a result the team will eventually get worse. However, now that we have a coach/FO capable of drafting and has the guts to make a trade for the likes of TJones, we can at least look forward to the future.

And that argument doesn't work considering half the team last year were those older players that went 10-6.

So if you claim Mangini was a great coach and that's why the Jets went 10-6, then you can't just say "it's bad players" now and they are 3-13.

If they went 4-12 last season, that argument would hold water. But they aren't a 3-13 team. Very few teams in the NFL are.... the NFL is built for most teams to go 8-8. If a team is 3-13, it means the coaching staff sucked and the FO didn't bring in the right players.

Blaming Herm 2 years later is kind of lame considering Mangini went 10-6 with mostly Herm and Bradways players last year.

[gangreenman]

They brought in Vilma and a few other defensive players... I wanted herm and bradway out like everybody else, but the reality is, how has the DL improved under Mangini? They haven't done a damn thing to fix it..

They did draft Mangold and DBrick, but the reality is, the OL still sucks. If it takes 5 great OL for this team to become good, they'll never win..

Like i said, the Colts played a month without 3 starting OL, without a HOF WR, without their starting RB...... It's called you have to adapt.

Hoping that the Jets get 5 good OL who will lead the way for 10 years is just unrealistic. With 2 first round OL the OL still sucks. What changes next season? They draft another OL and hope he doesn't get hurt or Mangold'/DBRick start bickering about more money.

At some point the team needs to improve... All I hear are excuses.. First it was Chad wasn't good enough and that's why the OL can't run block. Now it's KC is in his 2nd, 3rd, no 4th game.. They can't really pass block and they can't run block.

If you think that's getting better, I have a house to sell you that has some nice furniture and blinds, but the roof leaks and the basement is cracking, but hey, it's only been 2 years and you think it looks better than it once did.

I was just reffering to the lines, but it pretty much does apply to the rest of the team as well.

So far, I agree, Tangini hasnt done enough to fix the DL. But the thing is, how much can they do at once?

Last year they came in and drafted 2 OL, a QB of the future, some good versatile players like Smith and a scatback and STeamer in Leon. Then they trade for an everydown back and draft a great LB and a great CB.

Sure, other positions still need help, but the REALITY IS that its only been two offseasons, and its not Mangini's fault that Herm and Bradway SUCKED at their jobs and really didnt do anything productive for the future of the franchise.

Thats why its going to take some growth pains before we're good again, Herm and Bradway let too many players grow old and washed up on our roster that there needed to be an overhaul at almost every position.

Come back to me in two or three years,but here's betting we'll be a much improved team by then.

[gangreenman]

And that argument doesn't work considering half the team last year were those older players that went 10-6.

So if you claim Mangini was a great coach and that's why the Jets went 10-6, then you can't just say "it's bad players" now and they are 3-13.

If they went 4-12 last season, that argument would hold water. But they aren't a 3-13 team. Very few teams in the NFL are.... the NFL is built for most teams to go 8-8. If a team is 3-13, it means the coaching staff sucked and the FO didn't bring in the right players.

Blaming Herm 2 years later is kind of lame considering Mangini went 10-6 with mostly Herm and Bradways players last year.

Going 10-6 last year actually hurt us in the long run.

And a lot of that 10-6 record had to do with a weak schedule and catching a lot of lucky breaks in close games-the opposite of whats happened this year, it wasn't because we we had 10-6 talent IMO.

[pjam76]

Going 10-6 last year actually hurt us in the long run.

And a lot of that 10-6 record had to do with a weak schedule and catching a lot of lucky breaks in close games-the opposite of whats happened this year, it wasn't because we we had 10-6 talent IMO.

I agree that they weren't a 10-6 team, but they should be a 6-8 win team. This is the NFL, besides the Pats and Colts, there are no great teams...

And as far as schedule, even with the talent they have, 7-9 should not be a pipe dream.. Half the teams they've played are under .500.

[gangreenman]

I agree that they weren't a 10-6 team, but they should be a 6-8 win team. This is the NFL, besides the Pats and Colts, there are no great teams...

And as far as schedule, even with the talent they have, 7-9 should not be a pipe dream.. Half the teams they've played are under .500.

I agree...

We're not 3-13 calber either.

We've just gotten REALLY unlucky a lot of times this season, as opposed to last season where we got really lucky in similar situations.

[AVM]

Effective pieces from the get-go like Harris and Revis, but without giving up everything else to get just two.