Brick

[Sperm Edwards]

On 12/27/2014 at 12:35 PM, Jetdawgg said:

Again, please name the players who are flat out beating Brick. I even posted a player whom I feel is very challenging to him.

Smith is not as good as Sanchez was here. Maybe he will be, but to date I don't see it. If Brick is ok, then what do you consider the Jets RT? Again, please name someone who the Jets can get that is better. Please don't just say the draft. You clearly see Brick as a real problem, have a real solution is what I am stating.

Most people watching the Jets the past two years know that Geno Smith is the major problem for this offense. Once that issue is resolved, then in a year or two we can upgrade LT.

Sorry for not keeping a log or journal with notes, writing down every down he got beat, in anticipation of someone pretending it never happened weeks or months afterward. But plenty of people have noticed, Jets fans and non-Jets fans alike.

And there are plenty of times Smith has shown to be more mobile than Sanchez in the pocket (though that seemed to have gotten worse not better with time). In game threads here we even brought it up on plays where he moved up or dodged pressure, where Mark would have just stood there like a statue and gotten clobbered (and probably fumbled as well). On balance, Smith has been a terrible QB by almost any measure, but that doesn't mean every dropback, every time he got sacked or pressured, it's because he was to blame where any other would have escaped. Ferguson was also a top-rated tackle when Sanchez was a rookie, when it was he who was then the worst QB in the NFL. If you want to split hairs over which terrible QB was more terrible, be my guest. But they were both terrible and Ferguson was better with one terrible QB than with another. Sanchez didn't literally do everything better than Smith in every game.

Frankly, I'm surprised someone could watch Ferguson's career, from what he was to what he is, and not see that his play has regressed. He's not even a so-so run blocker anymore. He's downright awful. If one didn't know his past (prior excellent seasons, prior #4 overall pick) but just saw him play from 2013-14 he'd be the object of a whole lot more criticism.

I see Brick as being vastly overpaid in a salary cap league, and is - and has been - given a free pass because of past accomplishments and because that contract has meant he was irreplaceable. I also see him as inconsistent, and that he's been in decline overall.

If you want to turn it around into my saying something that I didn't, then have at it. I said to bring in others, through the draft or FA, to give him a run for his money and make him earn the job after two down seasons. If he turns things around that is clearly my preference. But he shouldn't get a free pass again, so an effort should be made to replace him.

Waiting to upgrade the QB before attempting to upgrade the LT a year or two later makes no sense to me whatsoever. Bring in at least one other to compete with him. If he wins the job - which he should - then he wins the job. The team is in better shape if he turns things around and quite possibly a new group of coaches can bring that out of him.

I don't see what you're getting upset about. I'd think everyone wants to see the team get better. If that's with Ferguson playing better, I'm for it. If someone else takes his job from him, I'm for that as well. Whatever the method, we need better play from his position independent of peripheral factors.

[Jetdawgg]

Good drop here guy. I am not nor did I get upset. Sometimes things can get misinterpreted on this medium.

I agree with you that Brick may have not played to the level of his former self. I just think that it is due to the inept QB play and the certainly woeful LG in Winters. To make a rookie QB play with a rookie LT is certainly a combustible mix imo. I think that the Jets have larger issues than Brick right now. We are worse at RG and RT imo.

[funaz]

A great pick in a great draft for the Jets. Is he a true pro bowler any more? No, but he has had to put up with sub standar guard play beside him at times in his career. DBrick is what you realistically hope you get when you take a LT early in the draft. A good to near pro bowl player you can plug in and not worry about for 10 years.

Exactly. People love to bash Brick because he isn't a top 5 guy at his position, but he's a first round pick that's been our LT for 10 years. You really wish all first round picks would go so well.

[Jetdawgg]

The other issue is we have not had a blocking TE in so long. That also helps the LT and the RT.

[DaBallhawk]

Cameron Wake: 0 Sacks. 0 QB Hits.

Olivier Vernon: 0 Sacks. 0 QB Hits.

 

Somebody get us a new LT! Brick sucks!

[bitonti]

 see if anyone else is interested in having a below-average represent nearly 10% of their cap because he was a top 10 tackle years ago.

 

 

You are way off calling him below average. Way off. There are two dozen teams where Brick would be the LT starter today. There are way worse options and by the way you don't draft a mid round LT and groom him. Those guys don't exist. you either use a high first rounder or try to convert a TE. Brick is not a problem, and if he was a problem it would take another top 10 type pick to solve it. 

 

the jets have way worse issues for example Quarterback. 

[Sperm Edwards]

You are way off calling him below average. Way off. There are two dozen teams where Brick would be the LT starter today. There are way worse options and by the way you don't draft a mid round LT and groom him. Those guys don't exist. you either use a high first rounder or try to convert a TE. Brick is not a problem, and if he was a problem it would take another top 10 type pick to solve it. 

 

the jets have way worse issues for example Quarterback.

OK sure. Only top 5-10 picks are better tackles than Ferguson these past 2 seasons.

[bitonti]

OK sure. Only top 5-10 picks are better tackles than Ferguson these past 2 seasons.

 

If you look around, really look, at all of the teams, and all of their left tackles, Brick isn't so bad. in fact he's better than most. I can go team by team but no one wants to read that s--t. 

[Sperm Edwards]

If you look around, really look, at all of the teams, and all of their left tackles, Brick isn't so bad. in fact he's better than most. I can go team by team but no one wants to read that s--t.

Go for it.

You get hung up too much with name recognition and draft slot.

He hasn't been what he used to be.

[bitonti]

Go for it.

You get hung up too much with name recognition and draft slot.

He hasn't been what he used to be.

 

Better than Brick

 

CLE - Joe Thomas

CHI - Jermon Bushrod

CIN - Andrew Whitworth

DAL - Tyron Smith

DEN - Ryan Clady (but is always hurt)

HOU - Duane Brown

PHI - Jason Peters

SF - Joe Staley

WAS - Trent Williams 

 

 

Similar to Brick 

 

AZ - Jared Veldheer

BAL - Eugene Monroe

IND - Anthony Castonzo 

MIA - Branden Albert (IR)

NO - Terron Armstead

SEA - Russell Okung (always hurt) 

 

Worse than Brick 

 

ATL - Jake Matthews 

BUF - Cordy Glenn 

CAR - Byron Bell 

DET - Riley Reiff

GB - David Bakhtiari

JAX - Luke Joeckel

KC - Eric Fisher

MIN - Matt Kalil 

NE - Nate Solder

NYG - Will Beatty

OAK - Donald Penn

PIT - Kelvin Beachum 

SD - King Dunlap 

STL - Greg Robinson (Jake Long is actually better but IR'ed) 

TB - Anthony Collins

TEN - Taylor Lewan 

[Sperm Edwards]

 

Better than Brick

 

CLE - Joe Thomas

CHI - Jermon Bushrod

CIN - Andrew Whitworth

DAL - Tyron Smith

DEN - Ryan Clady (but is always hurt)

HOU - Duane Brown

PHI - Jason Peters

SF - Joe Staley

WAS - Trent Williams 

 

 

Similar to Brick 

 

AZ - Jared Veldheer

BAL - Eugene Monroe

IND - Anthony Castonzo 

MIA - Branden Albert (IR)

NO - Terron Armstead

SEA - Russell Okung (always hurt) 

 

Worse than Brick 

 

ATL - Jake Matthews 

BUF - Cordy Glenn 

CAR - Byron Bell 

DET - Riley Reiff

GB - David Bakhtiari

JAX - Luke Joeckel

KC - Eric Fisher

MIN - Matt Kalil 

NE - Nate Solder

NYG - Will Beatty

OAK - Donald Penn

PIT - Kelvin Beachum 

SD - King Dunlap 

STL - Greg Robinson (Jake Long is actually better but IR'ed) 

TB - Anthony Collins

TEN - Taylor Lewan 

 

 

Holy crap you actually spent time on this? lol, I was joking.

 

And again, you're basing a lot of your rankings on name recognition and draft day pick number. Very recently, as one example, Dunlap has supposedly been a noticeably better LT than Ferguson. No, I don't watch every SD snap, but it's clear you don't either. You know he was a late 7th round pick who used to back up Jason Peters and has never been signed to a huge, lengthy contract. But in SD he's been given a lot of credit for the turnaround with Rivers from 2012 (when he said he was feeling footsteps that weren't there).

 

I don't think you know much about the players here who either weren't high draft picks or who weren't previously given huge contracts. That is my opinion.

[bitonti]

Holy crap you actually spent time on this? lol, I was joking.

 

And again, you're basing a lot of your rankings on name recognition and draft day pick number. Very recently, as one example, Dunlap has supposedly been a noticeably better LT than Ferguson. No, I don't watch every SD snap, but it's clear you don't either. You know he was a late 7th round pick who used to back up Jason Peters and has never been signed to a huge, lengthy contract. But in SD he's been given a lot of credit for the turnaround with Rivers from 2012 (when he said he was feeling footsteps that weren't there).

 

I don't think you know much about the players here who either weren't high draft picks or who weren't previously given huge contracts. That is my opinion.

 

King Dunlap friggin stinks.

 

He's not good. Certainly not better than Brick. And that's not based on 'name recognition.' 

 

What you are confused about is QB effeciency making bad OL look better. And in the Jets case, good OL look worse

 

for example I post this link every other week im going to do it again: 

 

http://www.buccaneers.com/news/article-smith/Football-Geekery-Quicker-Passes-Needed/81de1b9e-dd24-4581-80b2-1e58c53a5680

 

According to that, an NFL team's website, Geno Smith had over 4 seconds to throw, through the first 8 games. That's 2nd best in the league, only behind Jake Locker. Geno also led the league in "time to scramble." 

 

Meanwhile Phillip Rivers gets way less time but does more with what he has, cause he's an actual pro QB. 

 

 

Full disclosure one of my side gigs is Offensive Line Guy for footballguys.com. They sell a ton of subscriptions every year (like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth). I rank all the O lines, in a database, with updates every week for injuries, depth charts etc.

 

Yes there was a time I didn't know all these guys off the top of my head. Now, I can name the starter for any team, any position, without looking it up.  

 

Thats not name recognition. I do a ton of research. 

 

In this forum (and around the league) Brick is actually UNDERRATED and is not a problem requiring a high draft pick to solve.  We can go back and forth on the details (for example I was expecting pushback on the "similar to Brick" tier, as those guys are often more physical players but not as nimble).   

 

but the bottom line here is there are about 9 guys who he Brick's not as good as... and he's as good or better than the other 22 starters.  

 

ANd unlike some of the guys who he's supposedly worse than, he's never hurt. Ryan Clady for example might be objectively better than Brick but he's rarely healthy. Jason Peters blew out his leg last year. Jake Long did it this year (for the 2nd time. Meanwhile, Brick is always healthy. He's not a problem. He's an asset.  

[Sperm Edwards]

King Dunlap friggin stinks.

 

He's not good. Certainly not better than Brick. And that's not based on 'name recognition.' 

 

What you are confused about is QB effeciency making bad OL look better. And in the Jets case, good OL look worse

 

for example I post this link every other week im going to do it again: 

 

http://www.buccaneers.com/news/article-smith/Football-Geekery-Quicker-Passes-Needed/81de1b9e-dd24-4581-80b2-1e58c53a5680

 

According to that, an NFL team's website, Geno Smith had over 4 seconds to throw, through the first 8 games. That's 2nd best in the league, only behind Jake Locker. Geno also led the league in "time to scramble." 

 

Meanwhile Phillip Rivers gets way less time but does more with what he has, cause he's an actual pro QB. 

 

 

Full disclosure one of my side gigs is Offensive Line Guy for footballguys.com. These guys sell a ton of subscriptions every year (like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth). I rank all the O lines, in a huge database, with updates every week for injuries, depth charts etc. Yes there was a time I didn't know all these guys off the top of my head. Now, I can name the starter for any team, any position, without looking it up. 

 

Thats not name recognition. I do a ton of research. 

 

Brick is actually UNDERRATED and is not a problem requiring a high draft pick to solve.  We can go back and forth on the details (for example I was expecting pushback on the "similar to Brick" tier, as those guys are often more physical players but not as nimble).   

 

but the bottom line here is there are about 9 guys who he's not as good as... and he's as good or better than the other 22 starters.  ANd unlike some of the guys who he's supposedly worse than, he's never hurt. Ryan Clady for example might be objectively better than Brick but he's not always healthy. Brick is always healthy. He's not a problem. 

I didn't say Dunlap is the best LT in football; I said he's had better seasons than Ferguson the past 2 years. I'm going by what Rivers says about him. How he said all 2012 he was feeling footsteps that weren't there and that went away with Dunlap. His claim, not mine.

And footballguys.com used to ruin my fantasy football teams with their terrible rankings when I used to read their site. Their cheat-sheet download was/is cool, I'll give them that.

There is no way you break down every game from every team and sit there and watch every snap taken to assess every LT. You just don't. Therefore your rankings are suspect to say the least. You've always been a sucker for guys drafted highly and who have gotten huge contracts, here or elsewhere.

And if you don't see a huge difference in Brick, from what he was before to what he's been recently, then you're not watching and are looking to scapegoat others for his sub-par play. Plenty of guys have just run right around him and that never happened before.

And using time to throw is not necessarily a measure of a left tackle unless all QBs equally stay in the pocket, don't run, don't roll out to the right, etc. Geno is lacking in a lot of areas but he's not immobile. We've probably seen him have 4 seconds of time as he's had 2 seconds then ran backwards for another 2 seconds. That doesn't make it job well done by all the guys up front. I'd think you would realize this.

[bitonti]

 There is no way you break down every game from every team and sit there and watch every snap taken to assess every LT. You just don't. Therefore your rankings are suspect to say the least. You've always been a sucker for guys drafted highly and who have gotten huge contracts, here or elsewhere.

 

And using time to throw is not necessarily a measure of a left tackle unless all QBs equally stay in the pocket, don't run, don't roll out to the right, etc. Geno is lacking in a lot of areas but he's not immobile. We've probably seen him have 4 seconds of time as he's had 2 seconds then ran backwards for another 2 seconds. That doesn't make it job well done by all the guys up front. I'd think you would realize this.

 

No I don't break down every game from every team but I do watch a ton of NFL football, not just Jets football.  My rankings are awesome. Best in the biz. And the reason why is because I don't factor in the team's offensive success with how to grade their offensive line. Every other line rankings looks at the points generated and works backward. I look at the actual players and work from there. I don't even watch the football most of the time. I'm just watching the line. 

 

Before the season (could have been 2013 rankings) Rotoworld had the Packers OL at number one. Josh Sitton is their only 'awesome' player and he's a guard. The reason why they are ranked so high is because of Aaron Rodgers it's that simple. 

 

The reason why you think Brick stinks is because of Geno Smith. 

 

I'll give you another example the other day, the Jets OL rushed for 277 yards against a Miami Dolphins defense that knew it was coming. In this league, run blocking is harder than pass protection. Brick threw the block that spring Greg Salas and last week he threw a block that sprung Owunsu (or whatever his name is). Brick actually has been playing well in both phases. 

 

Look, we can go back and forth on Brick the player but anyone who believes in drafting a high first round franchise OT in 2015 is trippin balls. Or just not paying attention. The Jets OL is not a problem requiring a top 10 pick to fix. 

 

But why am I discussing this with you? King Dunlap? What a POS.

 

there are problems for example Colon is awful. Breno hasn't been great. But it's not worth the 6 pick to try and fix that problem. QB, CB are much worse needs. WR is worse after they get rid of Harvin. 

[Sperm Edwards]

No I don't break down every game from every team but I do watch a ton of NFL football, not just Jets football.  My rankings are awesome. Best in the biz. And the reason why is because I don't factor in the team's offensive success with how to grade their offensive line. Every other line rankings looks at the points generated and works backward. I look at the actual players and work from there. 

 

Before the season i think Rotoworld had the Packers OL at number one. Josh Sitton is their only 'awesome' player and he's a guard. The reason why they are ranked so high is because of Aaron Rodgers it's that simple. 

 

The reason why you think Brick stinks is because of Geno Smith. 

 

I'll give you another example the other day, the Jets OL rushed for 277 yards against a Miami Dolphins defense that knew it was coming. In this league, run blocking is harder than pass protection. The Jets OL is not a problem requiring a top 10 pick to fix. 

 

We can go back and forth on Brick the player but anyone who believes in drafting a high first round franchise OT in 2015 is trippin balls. Or just not paying attention. 

 

But why am I discussing this with you? King Dunlap? What a POS.

If you're not watching every snap of every other LT, you can't really say Ferguson is better than anyone. You're just going with names you're most familiar with.

I don't want us to draft a high first round (#6 overall pick) OT in 2015, so I don't know where you're getting that from.