Comparing the pass rushers...

[SenorGato]

Dupree's better

.

[#27TheDominator]

It is a well know fact in NFL circles that the Giants drafts always favor building the trenches over any other positions. The fact that the players they choose don't always pan out doesn't negate that fact.

The Steelers always draft players that fix the schemes they run. With the departure of Lebeau, it will be interesting to see if Tomlin starts drafting defensive players who fit the cover 2 defense that he ran before becoming HC of the steelers. What would you say is the Jets draft style ?

 

Please tell me who the Giants drafted to indicate that favored building in the trenches.  They draft pass rushers.  Pass rushers and WR.  The same exact guys at the top of this class.  The ones you want to draft an offensive lineman instead of.  Them and DBs and we have no room to draft anymore of them

[Paradis]

Dupree's better

 

Too macro. 

 

I see more disruption and pressure from Ray. 

[SenorGato]

Too macro. 

 

I see more disruption and pressure from Ray. 

 

Size: Dupree

Explosiveness off the line: Dupree, by a hilarious amount

Power: Dupree

Against the run: Dupree - They had no worries running right at Ray.

LB skills/versatility: Dupree

Flexibility: Dupree

Tackler: Dupree

 

Ray's a 4-3 DE from that. He's basically at DT or DE all game, only dropping into fairly safe zones a handful of times if that. He's good at getting inside, but isn't flexibile, big, or athletic enough to dominate OTs around the edge. Dupree actually gets asked to cover guys, couldn't be run against, and showed some ridiculous burst as an edge rusher. Not even close as prospect...

[cant wait]

Size: Dupree

Explosiveness off the line: Dupree, by a hilarious amount

Power: Dupree

Against the run: Dupree - They had no worries running right at Ray.

LB skills: Dupree

Flexibility: Dupree

Tackler: Dupree

Plus let's not act like that Kentucky D was stacked with talent either

[Paradis]

Size: Dupree

Explosiveness off the line: Dupree, by a hilarious amount

Power: Dupree

Against the run: Dupree - They had no worries running right at Ray.

LB skills: Dupree

Flexibility: Dupree

Tackler: Dupree

 

Size: Dupree

Speed: Dupree

Explosiveness/Burst: Ray, easily.... don't know what you're watching there. 

Power: I dunno. I guess Dupree, but Shane moves off his guy faster

Getting of their block; Ray.

Flexibility; Dupree

Instinctiveness; Ray

LB/Coverage; Dupree

Motor; Ray

Pressure; Ray

 

 

As a pure edge guy, i could see the argument for Dupree, but when you watch those games, it's clear to me that Ray's the one disrupting the QBs rhythm. NFL QBs can step in and around that lateral pressure if the tackle directs the defender. Ray finds his way into the QBs field of vision too often. 

[SenorGato]

Size: Dupree

Speed: Dupree

Explosiveness/Burst: Ray, easily.... don't know what you're watching there. 

Power: I dunno. I guess Dupree, but Shane moves off his guy faster

Getting of their block; Ray.

Flexibility; Dupree

Instinctiveness; Ray

LB/Coverage; Dupree

Motor; Ray

Pressure; Ray

 

 

As a pure edge guy, i could see the argument for Dupree, but when you watch those games, it's clear to me that Ray's the one disrupting the QBs rhythm. NFL QBs can step in and around that lateral pressure if the tackle directs the defender. Ray finds his way into the QBs field of vision too often. 

 

Yeah....I have to agree to disagree. This is about the NFL level, not the college level, and simply put what Dupree does with that kind of athleticism will translate better. You can't and don't become an elite pass rusher if you can't beat OTs to the outside, Ray had trouble with that just in that game, and Ray is going to have even more trouble with that in the NFL. Ray's the best bet for a Gholston-level bust among the top ranked OLB prospects.

[JustInFudge]

Size: Dupree

Explosiveness off the line: Dupree, by a hilarious amount

Power: Dupree

Against the run: Dupree - They had no worries running right at Ray.

LB skills/versatility: Dupree

Flexibility: Dupree

Tackler: Dupree

 

Ray's a 4-3 DE from that. He's basically at DT or DE all game, only dropping into fairly safe zones a handful of times if that. He's good at getting inside, but isn't flexibile, big, or athletic enough to dominate OTs around the edge. Dupree actually gets asked to cover guys, couldn't be run against, and showed some ridiculous burst as an edge rusher. Not even close as prospect...

 

Size: Dupree

Explosiveness off the line: Dupree, by a hilarious amount

Power: Dupree

Against the run: Dupree - They had no worries running right at Ray.

LB skills/versatility: Dupree

Flexibility: Dupree

Tackler: Dupree

 

Ray's a 4-3 DE from that. He's basically at DT or DE all game, only dropping into fairly safe zones a handful of times if that. He's good at getting inside, but isn't flexibile, big, or athletic enough to dominate OTs around the edge. Dupree actually gets asked to cover guys, couldn't be run against, and showed some ridiculous burst as an edge rusher. Not even close as prospect...

 

Going back to a conversation from months ago, I thought I viewed Ray as more of a LB'er in comparison to Gregory.  I think I've changed my mind on that and landed squarely on him being a 4-3 DE exclusively.  Dont see him as an OLB at all anymore.  And I want nothing to do with him.

 

That said, that game for Dupree vs. South Carolina that Paradis posted is scary bad.  Maybe a bad game but he looked terrible in the game.  Yes, he looks like he's being shot out of a cannon when he's coming off the line but at least in that game, thats where it ends.  He showed zero ability to disengage with blockers.  TE's and FB's were handling him with ease.  At the 5:54 mark, where he fails to contain, it was his responsibility that led to a HUGE TD.   That sh*t right there, scares the ever living sh*t out of me in the NFL.  They ran a counter, right at him and he had zero play recognition, got flushed into the pack and left his side of the field wide open for a TD.  He missed a ton of tackles, the ball carrier carried him a few times, took bad angles in coverage, over pursued and they were running plays right at him...you saw all the elements of a freak athlete, with an insane first step but not a whole much beyond that.

 

One game...but a terrible one.  I've only really watched him vs. the Gators and he seemed to always be around the QB...but I cant say I'm impressed with that game vs. South Carolina. 

 

Makes me only want Folwer at 6 to be honest.

[Paradis]

Yeah....I have to agree to disagree. This is about the NFL level, not the college level, and simply put what Dupree does with that kind of athleticism will translate better. You can't and don't become an elite pass rusher if you can't beat OTs to the outside, Ray had trouble with that just in that game, and Ray is going to have even more trouble with that in the NFL. Ray's the best bet for a Gholston-level bust among the top ranked OLB prospects.

 

You're being silly. There's no need to bring up the Ghost... Ever. 

 

An NFL left tackle is going to steer Bud like traffic police in 90% of those plays. QB takes one step up, and Bud is erased from the play. There's clay there to mold, and he has the "ability" to be dominant, but he doesn't look like a bonafide QB killer to me, not yet, and not by a long shot. 

 

Ray ultimately may always be an hand in the dirt kind of guy, best suited for a 40 front... but he's shown me that he can (and will) do anything to get his man. And it comes naturally to him - which is far more important to me than those extra 5 reps on the bench. 

[JustInFudge]

You're being silly. There's no need to bring up the Ghost... Ever. 

 

An NFL left tackle is going to steer Bud like traffic police in 90% of those plays. QB takes one step up, and Bud is erased from the play. There's clay there to mold, and he has the "ability" to be dominant, but he doesn't look like a bonafide QB killer to me, not yet, and not by a long shot. 

 

Ray ultimately may always be an hand in the dirt kind of guy, best suited for a 40 front... but he's shown me that he can (and will) do anything to get his man. And it comes naturally to him - which is far more important to me than those extra 5 reps on the bench. 

 

I dont think Ray is a fit here...but I agree with this assessment if you're basing it purely off those videos you posted.  Ray has an insane motor, which you notice immediately watching Mizzou play, constantly moving his legs, constantly moving his hands and trying to break free from blocks, always stays with the play.  Bud gives up if he doesnt get by you with speed.  Basically his only counter is trying to use his strength to yank and pull but doesnt have any technique or the hands play you'd like to see from a pass rusher.  Not a whole lot of moves for such an agile guy...based on his combine numbers...basically a straight line pass rusher and thats it if you're going off the South Carolina film.

 

Scary.

[SenorGato]

You're being silly. There's no need to bring up the Ghost... Ever. 

 

An NFL left tackle is going to steer Bud like traffic police in 90% of those plays. QB takes one step up, and Bud is erased from the play. There's clay there to mold, and he has the "ability" to be dominant, but he doesn't look like a bonafide QB killer to me, not yet, and not by a long shot. 

 

Ray ultimately may always be an hand in the dirt kind of guy, best suited for a 40 front... but he's shown me that he can (and will) do anything to get his man. And it comes naturally to him - which is far more important to me than those extra 5 reps on the bench. 

 

First bold:

 

Both Ray and Gholston are extremely elevated based on one year of production and perceptions of athleticism (ignoring all info we have on 3-4 OLB prospects).

 

Second bold:

 

Lol yes, you wish that was the difference between the two as athletes.

[SenorGato]

Going back to a conversation from months ago, I thought I viewed Ray as more of a LB'er in comparison to Gregory.  I think I've changed my mind on that and landed squarely on him being a 4-3 DE exclusively.  Dont see him as an OLB at all anymore.  And I want nothing to do with him.

 

That said, that game for Dupree vs. South Carolina that Paradis posted is scary bad.  Maybe a bad game but he looked terrible in the game.  Yes, he looks like he's being shot out of a cannon when he's coming off the line but at least in that game, thats where it ends.  He showed zero ability to disengage with blockers.  TE's and FB's were handling him with ease.  At the 5:54 mark, where he fails to contain, it was his responsibility that led to a HUGE TD.   That sh*t right there, scares the ever living sh*t out of me in the NFL.  They ran a counter, right at him and he had zero play recognition, got flushed into the pack and left his side of the field wide open for a TD.  He missed a ton of tackles, the ball carrier carried him a few times, took bad angles in coverage, over pursued and they were running plays right at him...you saw all the elements of a freak athlete, with an insane first step but not a whole much beyond that.

 

One game...but a terrible one.  I've only really watched him vs. the Gators and he seemed to always be around the QB...but I cant say I'm impressed with that game vs. South Carolina. 

 

Makes me only want Folwer at 6 to be honest.

 

Another guy I'm going to agree to disagree on. Seems like you both were looking for splash plays and ignoring everything else, Dupree manhandles his blockers particularly early on in there. That one run is quite literally the only successful run to Dupree's side in that whole video -  meanwhile Ray's side is a sieve for the run in his video.

 

Another thing to note is that Dupree is in a position for you to put those knocks on him, and he *still* holds up as a prospect. Beyond watching them consistently run at him, Ray isn't even tested in that video. Once the OT stays beating up on him, and it is happening early on, they kick him in at DT and let him take on college guards. That stuff will not translate, it just won't.

[JustInFudge]

Another guy I'm going to agree to disagree on. Seems like you both were looking for splash plays and ignoring everything else, Dupree manhandles his blockers particularly early on in there. That one run is quite literally the only successful run to Dupree's side in that whole video -  meanwhile Ray's side is a sieve for the run in his video.

 

Another thing to note is that Dupree is in a position for you to put those knocks on him, and he *still* holds up as a prospect. Beyond watching them consistently run at him, Ray isn't even tested in that video. Once the OT stays beating up on him, and it is happening early on, they kick him in at DT and let him take on college guards. That stuff will not translate, it just won't.

 

I think you need to watch it again then...Dupree was completely ineffective in that video.  Half the plays where he actually did disengage and get to the ball carrier...he just dove at knees and the runner still gained yards or ran right through him.  I saw one good tackle the whole video.  If I were looking for splash plays I would have pointed out his pick 6.  Only a few pressures and the QB recognized it and threw to his side.  Spurrier was playing him and it worked.  They were going at him.  period. 

 

I dont like Ray.  I'd still take Dupree over him but that tape in particular is concerning...but again, its one game.  

[SenorGato]

I think you need to watch it again then...Dupree was completely ineffective in that video.  Half the plays where he actually did disengage and get to the ball carrier...he just dove at knees and the runner still gained yards or ran right through him.  I saw one good tackle the whole video.  If I were looking for splash plays I would have pointed out his pick 6.  Only a few pressures and the QB recognized it and threw to his side.  Spurrier was playing him and it worked.  They were going at him.  period. 

 

I dont like Ray.  I'd still take Dupree over him but that tape in particular is concerning...but again, its one game.  

 

Being able to beat up his 10 teammates on the field isn't beating him individually or going at him. They went around him, because it's all they could do. None of those runs you're talking about - except the TD - are at him - they're on the other side. That he's there at all is impressive, that he's among the first Kentucky players there consistently and the one doing the most damage to end the play says a ton.

[Paradis]

First bold:

Both Ray and Gholston are extremely elevated based on one year of production and perceptions of athleticism (ignoring all info we have on 3-4 OLB prospects).

Second bold:

Lol yes, you wish that was the difference between the two as athletes.

So everyone who has a big year in college is a ghost comparison now? Is Kevin White the next Gholston too? I'm pretty sure this past year was Rays first as a full time starter. I guess he should have tried less hard?

I'm not sure what the vendetta is here, but I saw what I saw. As far as guys who did damage and fcked with the QB; its Ray by a country mile.

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[Beerfish]

It is good to see a full set of snaps for these guys that is for sure rather than just the highlights.

 

As with a lot of players it can come down to risk.  I see guys like Dupree and Fowler as less risky to be actual NFL players as they have been asked to play a more complete game.  However some of the others flash that 15 sack potential.

[SenorGato]

So everyone who has a big year in college is a ghost comparison now? Is Kevin White the next Gholston too? I'm pretty sure this past year was Rays first as a full time starter. I guess he should have tried less hard?

I'm not sure what the vendetta is here, but I saw what I saw. As far as guys who did damage and fcked with the QB; its Ray by a country mile.

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- Everyone with one big year in college and a clearly risky draft season - including Ray's disappointing workouts - is a Gholston candidate, yes. White is indeed a canidate at WR, sure.

 

- Once again, Ray not earning a full time starting gig until his junior year is not a point in his or your favor here.

 

- Dominating college guards is probably a little easier than dominating an NFL tackle. If you want a guy with the tools to beat an NFL OT, and who showed he has them in the youtube cutup offered, that would be Dupree. There's no vendetta against Ray - numbers are overwhelmingly on Dupree's side and critical viewing of that Youtube stuff for NFL traits would put him ahead. Was it Dupree's best game? Nope, but drafting guys on their highlights is a dumb idea anyway. In Dupree I saw a guy who was physically manhandling guys - moving/throwing them, who worked through traffic to slow down the run more often than not - consistently setting the edge, who blows everyone off the line at the snap (your claim that Ray has the better burst would be supported by few, if anyone, and more opinion certainly wouldn't make it true knowing what we know about DE/OLB prospects), who took on real coverage assignments and had to run with skill guys rather than sit pretty in a zone...I don't see what you see, and as I've stated before there was definitely an effort to do that early on when I thought Ray was going to be a thing. He just isn't a good NFL prospect, which is an entirely different thing from being a good or exciting college player.

[Paradis]

I wouldn't say you're out to lunch, I personally believe you're a little heavily on potential with Dupree for my liking. As far as OLBs in our system go, I can see the case for why Bud would be someone's favorite selection. Unless we're committed to a 4-3, im not so sure Ray makes a lot of sense at 6. We agree to disagree on Ray's ability in the NFL. That much im sure of. Dupree at 6 is a reach. I don't like White as much as pundits do and Cooper is ok but I'd like a higher ceiling if I'm taking a WR that high. Might end up being fowler or bust for me... Unless management sees the same thing Parker I do.

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[JustInFudge]

Being able to beat up his 10 teammates on the field isn't beating him individually or going at him. They went around him, because it's all they could do. None of those runs you're talking about - except the TD - are at him - they're on the other side. That he's there at all is impressive, that he's among the first Kentucky players there consistently and the one doing the most damage to end the play says a ton.

 

Weird.  We must be watching a different Carolina game posted by Paradis because at least 80% of the run plays were directly at him.  Like, directly at him.  Lots of traps at him that he had no answer for.  Got gobbled up numerous times at point of attack too.  Pretty much a terrible game, nothing impressive other than his first step.  Again, its one game, but that's what I'm seeing when I watch that video.  How you see something different is confusing.  It's pretty obvious watching that tape he gets lost in the shuffle, a lot and was pretty ineffective.  This damage you speak of, never happened.

[SenorGato]

Weird.  We must be watching a different Carolina game posted by Paradis because at least 80% of the run plays were directly at him.  Like, directly at him.  Lots of traps at him that he had no answer for.  Got gobbled up numerous times at point of attack too.  Pretty much a terrible game, nothing impressive other than his first step.  Again, its one game, but that's what I'm seeing when I watch that video.  How you see something different is confusing.  It's pretty obvious watching that tape he gets lost in the shuffle, a lot and was pretty ineffective.  This damage you speak of, never happened.

 

I will go ahead and agree to disagree. Definitely don't see 80% of those run plays, probably got trapped a couple times with no answer for it - nothing out of the ordinary, beat his man far more than the other way around...Not his best game, still plenty of good to take away from it if you're looking for movements and skills that will translate to the NFL in an impactful way - including but not limited to the best burst in this draft.

 

I wouldn't say you're out to lunch, I personally believe you're a little heavily on potential with Dupree for my liking. As far as OLBs in our system go, I can see the case for why Bud would be someone's favorite selection. Unless we're committed to a 4-3, im not so sure Ray makes a lot of sense at 6. We agree to disagree on Ray's ability in the NFL. That much im sure of. Dupree at 6 is a reach. I don't like White as much as pundits do and Cooper is ok but I'd like a higher ceiling if I'm taking a WR that high. Might end up being fowler or bust for me... Unless management sees the same thing Parker I do.

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Unfortunately this is more true about you and Ray, and the worst part is that it's potential that Ray doesn't have.

[JustInFudge]

I will go ahead and agree to disagree. Definitely don't see 80% of those run plays, probably got trapped a couple times with no answer for it - nothing out of the ordinary, beat his man far more than the other way around...Not his best game, still plenty of good to take away from it if you're looking for movements and skills that will translate to the NFL in an impactful way - including but not limited to the best burst in this draft.

 

 

Unfortunately this is more true about you and Ray, and the worst part is that it's potential that Ray doesn't have.

 

Like I said, it was one game.  Not completely judging him from it but it wasnt a pretty game.  I still like him and would be happy if the Jets took him but watching that film makes me land solidly on Fowler Jr. if they're taking a pass rusher at #6. 

[SenorGato]

Like I said, it was one game. Not completely judging him from it but it wasnt a pretty game. I still like him and would be happy if the Jets took him but watching that film makes me land solidly on Fowler Jr. if they're taking a pass rusher at #6.

I've fallen off Fowler Jr. Like Ray, he is overrated as a pass rushing prospect.

Dupree

Beasley

Fowler/Hunter

Hunter/Fowler

Ray

[JustInFudge]

I've fallen off Fowler Jr. Like Ray, he is overrated as a pass rushing prospect.

Dupree

Beasley

Fowler/Hunter

Hunter/Fowler

Ray

 

My fear is Beasley and Dupree are 1 trick ponies as strictly an outside rusher.  They show nothing after that amazing burst and chasing a QB.  Maybe they have a handful of sacks more a year than Fowler but I dont think they have near the impact on the entire game that Fowler will.  So I guess its a what is more important to you question; a complete player that maybe doesnt post as many sacks or a one trick pony that's only valuable skill set is rushing from the edge?

[SenorGato]

My fear is Beasley and Dupree are 1 trick ponies as strictly an outside rusher. They show nothing after that amazing burst and chasing a QB. Maybe they have a handful of sacks more a year than Fowler but I dont think they have near the impact on the entire game that Fowler will. So I guess its a what is more important to you question; a complete player that maybe doesnt post as many sacks or a one trick pony that's only valuable skill set is rushing from the edge?

Disagree there, both Beasley and Dupree can play the pass beyond rushing the passer. Dupree specifically played LB in college and was a far more productive player than Fowler. Fowler already lags behind as a rusher and an athlete, why would he become a more complete player otherwise? Both of those guys, especially Dupree, are better bets to be impact LBs.

I would take a complete player. The best bet for that among those three, by far, is Dupree. Then Beasley, then Fowler....

[JohnnyLV]

Give me Cooper or White. All thsee guys scare the bejeesus out of me. Potential busts all.

[cant wait]

My fear is Beasley and Dupree are 1 trick ponies as strictly an outside rusher. They show nothing after that amazing burst and chasing a QB. Maybe they have a handful of sacks more a year than Fowler but I dont think they have near the impact on the entire game that Fowler will. So I guess its a what is more important to you question; a complete player that maybe doesnt post as many sacks or a one trick pony that's only valuable skill set is rushing from the edge?

3-4 OLB are actually fairly easy to project if you believe in the metrics. technique can be taught, I don't expect any of these prospects to be immediately ready to play in the NFL

[cant wait]

Btw I love these arguments. Reminds me of the Jarvis jones vs. ziggy ansah draft talk

[JustInFudge]

Disagree there, both Beasley and Dupree can play the pass beyond rushing the passer. Dupree specifically played LB in college and was a far more productive player than Fowler. Fowler already lags behind as a rusher and an athlete, why would he become a more complete player otherwise? Both of those guys, especially Dupree, are better bets to be impact LBs.

I would take a complete player. The best bet for that among those three, by far, is Dupree. Then Beasley, then Fowler....

 

Fair enough.  We're totally opposite on it and thats cool.  Fowler > Dupree > Beasley. IMO  And I swear I'm removing my Gator love in this assessment.  

 

3-4 OLB are actually fairly easy to project if you believe in the metrics. technique can be taught, I don't expect any of these prospects to be immediately ready to play in the NFL

 

This is true which is why I think Gato is creaming himself over Dupree and possibly (possibly) not seeing the truth in that video vs. South Carolina

 

Btw I love these arguments. Reminds me of the Jarvis jones vs. ziggy ansah draft talk

 

Very much so...but I dont think any of these names had the production vs. lack of workout scores that Jones had...he was a hard one.  Monster on tape, weak on the track.  

 

Wont lie.  I was a Jones fan.  Knew the Steelers would take him and expected him to be pretty damn good.  So go figure.

[Paradis]

 

Unfortunately this is more true about you and Ray, and the worst part is that it's potential that Ray doesn't have.

 

You're teetering on condescending there, mount cody. 

[SenorGato]

You're teetering on condescending there, mount cody. 

 

I'm just saying!!

[drdetroit]

Give me Cooper or White. All thsee guys scare the bejeesus out of me. Potential busts all.

The list crappy Olb's taken in the top 10 last several years is scary

[drdetroit]

Btw I love these arguments. Reminds me of the Jarvis jones vs. ziggy ansah draft talk

Dion Jordan baby. He had that big 1 sack last season.

And jets fans complain about Quinton Coples.

[Beerfish]

The list crappy Olb's taken in the top 10 last several years is scary

Well there are also the likes of Von miller, aldon smith, khalil mack, Ansah.

 

Pick any position you like and it is easy to find all sorts of busts at the top of the draft.

 

Fisher, jockel, johnson, cooper, warmack non of those guys have lite the world on fire.

[drdetroit]

Well there are also the likes of Von miller, aldon smith, khalil mack, Ansah.

Pick any position you like and it is easy to find all sorts of busts at the top of the draft.

Fisher, jockel, johnson, cooper, warmack non of those guys have lite the world on fire.

Randy Gregory ROFL LMFAO

[Beerfish]

Randy Gregory ROFL LMFAO

What does randy gregory have to do with my list of olbs that panned out to some extent? 

 

I'll repost my comment from a previous thread.  You name a position I'll start naming early draft busts.  with you wild generalized comments a team you ran would have no olbs at all because they are always busts and would draft nothing but safe olineman in the top 10.