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Devil Rays send Yankees into last place

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If you're loading the bases it IS to get a DP.

If he strikes out the batter, Torre will have no complaints. Loading the bases is to set up the DP, in addition to setting up a force at any base, so a slow roller back to the mound becomes a force at the plate. But any kind of out that prevents a run from scoring is gladly welcomed.

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If you were watching the game, you would have noticed that the single and double Wang gave up in the 7th were pitches up in the zone. That tells me he was running out of gas, as he almost always leaves his stuff down.

Maybe he could have gone another batter or 2, maybe not. But if he was on a pitch count, and today's NY Post has an article that indicates he was (an 80 pitch limit), then Torre made the right call in the 7th.

It just didn't work out.

No he DID NOT. He was playing for the DP by walking Baldelli. And he brings in a pitcher with a .60 GF to get that DP which is insane by itself. If he was going to go to the pen he should've brought in Burney and played for the K. Thinking vizciano could get a DP overworked and ineffective as he is, shows what a horrible manager he is.

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If he strikes out the batter, Torre will have no complaints. Loading the bases is to set up the DP, but any kind of out that prevents a run from scoring is gladly welcomed.

THAN BRING IN BURNEY NOT VIZCAINO. He was CLEARLY playing for the DP.

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THAN BRING IN BURNEY NOT VIZCAINO. He was CLEARLY playing for the DP.

Bruney was toast. He is running on fumes. Or did you not notice from his last appearance, theh night before??

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Bruney was toast. He is running on fumes. Or did you not notice from his last appearance, theh night before??
And Vizcaino wasn't? You can't have it both ways. He's pitched more than Burney has.

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And Vizcaino wasn't? You can't have it both ways. He's pitched more than Burney has.

Pick your poison.

Bruney failed misrabely the day before. So Vicaino seemed like the lessor of 2 evils.

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Pick your poison.

Bruney failed misrabely the day before. So Vicaino seemed like the lessor of 2 evils.

Burney had ONE BAD OUTING all year. Every time Vizcaino pitches, he's garbage.

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I seriously doubt the last place Janks will still be in last when season ends,,it will get better.

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I seriously doubt the last place Janks will still be in last when season ends,,it will get better.
Everyone knows that. Thats not the point. The point is the consistent mismanagement of this pitching staff.

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Burney had ONE BAD OUTING all year. Every time Vizcaino pitches, he's garbage.

Go back and check out his appearances this year. Not as bad as you think. In fact, he was quite good the first 2 weeks, until his arm fell off.

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Everyone knows that. Thats not the point. The point is the consistent mismanagement of this pitching staff.

maybe the pitchers just arent pitching,,, it happens...

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maybe the pitchers just arent pitching,,, it happens...

Stop trying to use logic or common sense here. It does not work when agruing with him. ;)

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Burney had ONE BAD OUTING all year. Every time Vizcaino pitches, he's garbage.

Vizcaino has appeared in 13 games and allowed 0 runs 9 times and has allowed no base runners five times. Please explain to me how a guy is pitching like garbage "every time" when he allows no base runners or no runs?

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Vizcaino has appeared in 13 games and allowed 0 runs 9 times and has allowed no base runners five times. Please explain to me how a guy is pitching like garbage "every time" when he allows no base runners or no runs?

he has 10 walks in 12 innings. thats no baserunners? i understand you can't be realistic about him because of the Johnson trade and your need to justify that but he's been HORRIBLE.

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maybe the pitchers just arent pitching,,, it happens...

not that simple. the pitchers are not being used in the right situations.

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he has 10 walks in 12 innings. thats no baserunners?

Yes...what I said was 100% pure fact. In five of his twelve outings he allowed not a single walk or hit. Please explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is pitching "like garbage". This should be good.

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Yes...what I said was 100% pure fact. In five of his twelve outings he allowed not a single walk or hit. Please explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is pitching "like garbage". This should be good.

In his last 7 games he's walked at least one hitter EVERY TIME. Even someone with an agenda like you can realize that that is awful. 12ip 10bb is completely unacceptable and if you don't realize that you're just in denial.

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Yet clueless joe CONTINUES to pull starters early and rely on this bullpen that has been nothing but HORRIBLE all year.

Okay...the season is 19 games old. You're saying that a bullpen has been "nothing but HORRIBLE all year"

In their first 11 games of the season (which at this point is more than half of the games played) the Yankee bullpen had a collective ERA of 2.42 and if you take out the 3 run homer that Mo gave up it's 1.91. So now a bullpen with a collective ERA of 1.91 is HORRIBLE? In EIGHT of those games the bullpen allowed 2 ER or less. Please explain how this is HORRIBLE.

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In his last 7 games he's walked at least one hitter EVERY TIME. Even someone with an agenda like you can realize that that is awful. 12ip 10bb is completely unacceptable and if you don't realize that you're just in denial.

Thats not what you said. You said he has been garbage every time he's pitched. You have still yet to explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is "pitching like garbage".

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Thats not what you said. You said he has been garbage every time he's pitched. You have still yet to explain to me how allowing ZERO baserunners is "pitching like garbage".

He's currently pitching like garbage as his ugly walk numbers show. Not to mention his awful k9 and GF.

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Okay...the season is 19 games old. You're saying that a bullpen has been "nothing but HORRIBLE all year"

In their first 11 games of the season (which at this point is more than half of the games played) the Yankee bullpen had a collective ERA of 2.42 and if you take out the 3 run homer that Mo gave up it's 1.91. So now a bullpen with a collective ERA of 1.91 is HORRIBLE? In EIGHT of those games the bullpen allowed 2 ER or less. Please explain how this is HORRIBLE.

It's been horrible RECENTLY because of torre's mismanagement.

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He's currently pitching like garbage as his ugly walk numbers show. Not to mention his awful k9 and GF.

I can agree with that. Just trying to get you to look at the big picture before you make comepletely inaccurate statements.

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It's been horrible RECENTLY because of torre's mismanagement.

Again, you gain credibility as you make more posts that are accurate as opposed to flying off the handle and making completely inaccurate comments about a season that is only 19 games old.

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I can agree with that. Just trying to get you to look at the big picture before you make comepletely inaccurate statements.

The big picture is (as i've been saying for years) is that Torre is a horrible manager of a bullpen. I never said this pen lacks talent. Torre is just getting the worst possible performance out of them and thats why he needs to go. You're arguing semantically as usual instead of presenting any real ideas.

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The big picture is (as i've been saying) is that Torre is a horrible manager of a bullpen. I never said this pen lacks talent. Torre is just getting the worst possible performance out of them and thats why he needs to go.

Well this is what I mean. Because you HATE Joe Torre so much, you're allowing it to get you all worked up and yelling and screaming things that are just dead wrong. Do a little homework. Look at some stats. Pay attention to the games when you watch them. Make your own (accurate) conclusions and state a well informed opinion. It gives you credibility and improves the overall quality of the board.

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The big picture is (as i've been saying for years) is that Torre is a horrible manager of a bullpen. I never said this pen lacks talent. Torre is just getting the worst possible performance out of them and thats why he needs to go. You're arguing semantically as usual instead of presenting any real ideas.

And as usual you're unable to have a discussion without taking some kind of shot at me becuase it makes you furious that I just proved you to be absolutely, undeniably, 100% dead wrong on two statements you were trying to use as the basis of your argument. Try having a discussion without finding a roundabout way of putting somebody down because they've proven you wrong.

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Well this is what I mean. Because you HATE Joe Torre so much, you're allowing it to get you all worked up and yelling and screaming things that are just dead wrong. Do a little homework. Look at some stats. Pay attention to the games when you watch them. Make your own (accurate) conclusions and state a well informed opinion. It gives you credibility and improves the overall quality of the board.

It has nothing to do with hating Torre. It has to do with being able to see a pattern of consistent bullpen mismanagement that is YEARS old. And that is a well informed opinion as is everything i state. If you have a counter to my opinion i'll be happy to respond to it instead of your usual semantical crap.

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And as usual you're unable to have a discussion without taking some kind of shot at me becuase it makes you furious that I just proved you to be absolutely, undeniably, 100% dead wrong on two statements you were trying to use as the basis of your argument. Try having a discussion without finding a roundabout way of putting somebody down because they've proven you wrong.

You have no real argument as usual. You are making tiny semantical points which have nothing to do with the big picture. If you have a real argument that is fact based i'll be happy to hear it.

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You have no real argument. You are making tiny semantical points which have nothing to do with the big picture. If you have a real argument that is fact based i'll be happy to hear it.

There was no argument MadMike. I was just trying to help the discussion along by correcting your completely inaccurate statements. Some people who aren't watching the games as closely as I am might read what you're saying and think you were correct. Now that I've stepped in and pointed out your gross inaccuracies the thread is stronger because I used facts that proved your opinion to be driven by emotion as opposed to facts.

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There was no argument MadMike. I was just trying to help the discussion along by correcting your completely inaccurate statements. Some people who aren't watching the games as closely as I am might read what you're saying and think you were correct. Now that I've stepped in and pointed out your gross inaccuracies the thread is stronger because I used facts that proved your opinion to be driven by emotion as opposed to facts.
How about this? If you don't have a point other than semantical nitpicking don't post anything. Your argument is that "Vizciano is bad but a little less bad than you're saying." You have ZERO real argument.

And BTW the fact that the bullpen pitched well earlier in the season only goes to back MY point that torre is horrible at managing the pen.

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How about this? If you don't have a point other than semantical nitpicking don't post anything. Your argument is that "Vizciano is bad but a little less bad than you're saying." You have ZERO real argument.

What I was saying was "MadMike, you're wrong" and I was right. My comments brought some fact to the discussion to erase the multiple incorrect statements you were making. Carry on.

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What I was saying was "MadMike, you're wrong" and I was right. Carry on.
My point was "Torre is terrible at managing a bullpen" if you want to try to prove that statement wrong go ahead. Because as usual you haven't even addressed the main point.

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My point was "Torre is terrible at managing a bullpen" if you want to try to prove that statement wrong go ahead.

Now it's not possible to prove an opinion right or wrong Mike. I know you love to rip people all the time and tell them how stupid they are becuase their opinions are different than yours. I dont do that. If you think Torre is terrible then I'm fine with that. If you're going to make grossly innacurate statements that can be proven wrong with facts then I'm going to point it out. It's bad when you're trying to make a point and in making that point you use completely false or innacurate statements to make that point. Oh, and of course I can always say that Joe Torre was managing the Yankees 'pen when they won four rings and he was the one that came up with what many consider to be the most lethal 1-2 combo of all time using Mo and Wettland back to back.

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Now it's not possible to prove an opinion right or wrong Mike. I know you love to rip people all the time and tell them how stupid they are becuase their opinions are different than yours. I dont do that. If you think Torre is terrible then I'm fine with that. If you're going to make grossly innacurate statements that can be proven wrong with facts then I'm going to point it out. It's bad when you're trying to make a point and in making that point you use completely false or innacurate statements to make that point. Oh, and of course I can always say that Joe Torre was managing the Yankees 'pen when they won four rings and he was the one that came up with what many consider to be the most lethal 1-2 combo of all time using Mo and Wettland back to back.

Again you have no argument. I guess Torre only gets credit for what happened 11 years ago but doesn't have to take any hits for his recent history of horrible bullpen management... And you can throw Cashman's awful record of signing bullpen pitchers in with that too.

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Again you have no argument. I guess Torre only gets credit for what happened 11 years ago but doesn't have to take any hits for his recent history of horrible bullpen management... And you can throw Cashman's awful record of signing bullpen pitchers in with that too.

Mike, you can't PROVE that a bullpen has been mismanaged or not, all you can do is speculate,

It is entirely within teh realm of possibility that if Torre had a direct connection to you, and asked your opinion on every move, that those moves could have backfired too.

Again, as AFJ told you, it is impossible to prove a subjective opinion. I know you hate to hear that.

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