Boozer76 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I don't consider anything theft/stealing unless you're actually taking something from someone or some group of someones, meaning they will no longer have it themselves. If not then, imo, its just somebody whining because their product isn't good enough for you to spend your hard-earned money on. As long as a person is using whatever they take for their own personal use and not for profit, then I don't have a problem with it. So it's totally cool for me to come into your house every morning at take my morning constitutional? I'm not taking anything from you, just using your things for my own personal use. Sorry dude, totally dumb argument. You're stealing plain as day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I think you're wrong about cd's being expensive to create, I know bands that do it all the time on a laptop and the music sounds just as good as the so called professional stuff. I think the greedy record industry is used to doing things a certain way so that people in suits make money and the artists and consumer generally loses out. I have no love for people who inflate production costs just to keep a very greedy and corrupt system going. They could easily make the system more fare to artists and consumers but that would mean less money going around to people who do nothing really to earn it, so that'll never happen. Right, I'm in one of those bands right now, and we happen to be working on a CD. We have no real marketing plan at the moment, because it costs a ****load of money. Whatever marketing we do have is strictly local, again because it costs a ****load of money. We have no management currently to book us and help spread the us beyond where were are already popular, because it costs a ****load of money. These are the things record compalnies do, and tose are the costs that are included in the CD. Like I said earlier, most bands flop well before they cover the costs of the CD's and all the marketing that was created for them. The cost of the CD's of the thriving artists cover those costs as well. If they didn't then all record companies would fail and you'd never hear music anywhere but your local bands in a bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I think you're wrong about cd's being expensive to create, I know bands that do it all the time on a laptop and the music sounds just as good as the so called professional stuff. I think the greedy record industry is used to doing things a certain way so that people in suits make money and the artists and consumer generally loses out. I have no love for people who inflate production costs just to keep a very greedy and corrupt system going. They could easily make the system more fare to artists and consumers but that would mean less money going around to people who do nothing really to earn it, so that'll never happen. Not the physical cost to make it, the costs are before the cd is physically made, production/marketing etc etc. And yeah, technology has brought capabilities to the masses that is unheard of 10 years ago, but while a garage band can record and produce their demo on a 300.00 firewire board hooked up to a 1300 macbook, that is not how releases by major labels are done. As an example, I have a hefty mac tower loaded with apple production software for video/film making. The software costs around 1,500, the computer, ram, dual monitors and such costs around 10,000. So figure 12,000 for my editing suite. This is surely not cheap, but it pales in comparison to the top Avid system at 80-100 thousand. While I am a 10th of the cost, I can do 80% of what they can if I have the knowledge to use my equipment to its fullest(which i do not). That extra 20% is not anywhere near worth it to my operation, and it isn't for a lot of indie filmakers as FinalCut is extremely popular, but for any major studio it isn't even an option, they have those avid systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I listen to underground music and every cd I buy is $10, they do it and they probably don't sell much more than the 3000 discs that classical music moves. Hey, for a guy to record his own music in his bedroom and sell them out of the trunk of his car and at shows, 10 bucks a pop and 3000 discs would be awesome. The problem comes when he tries to sell them to retail outlets, which has to go through a middleman. By the way, i am not a musician, but in my business most companies are now seeing sales of about 1000 units per title. That number can go up a little later on as a back cataluage title, but by that point it is so discounted there is no money anyway. Selling 3000 discs is a lot harder then you think. And if it is a company that has to bay professionals to mix and master the music, your costs go up a lot higher then the random guy recording in his bedroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Right, I'm in one of those bands right now, and we happen to be working on a CD. We have no real marketing plan at the moment, because it costs a ****load of money. Whatever marketing we do have is strictly local, again because it costs a ****load of money. We have no management currently to book us and help spread the us beyond where were are already popular, because it costs a ****load of money. These are the things record compalnies do, and tose are the costs that are included in the CD. Like I said earlier, most bands flop well before they cover the costs of the CD's and all the marketing that was created for them. The cost of the CD's of the thriving artists cover those costs as well. If they didn't then all record companies would fail and you'd never hear music anywhere but your local bands in a bar Dude, where can i listen to your stuff online? You have a myspace page yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Dude, where can i listen to your stuff online? You have a myspace page yet? www.myspace.com/echofission None of our new somgs are up yet as we haven't finished the CD yet. I think there are 3 from our last CD and one from our first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I don't consider anything theft/stealing unless you're actually taking something from someone or some group of someones, meaning they will no longer have it themselves. If not then, imo, its just somebody whining because their product isn't good enough for you to spend your hard-earned money on. As long as a person is using whatever they take for their own personal use and not for profit, then I don't have a problem with it. You have an extremely simple minded viewpoint on the matter. So I go and shoot a scene, it costs me about 4,000 to shoot one scene. I have 35 on my site and add a new one every week. that is 140,000 in my cost in content, plus the thousands in other business costs. I charge 25.00 a month for someone to access this growing library. 25.00 (less then the cost of one dvd!) a month to access a content library that costs over 150,000 to create and grows every week by at least 4,000 in cost is a great deal!!!! Nobody will deny that, but at the end of the day if someone knows where to go they can find a lot of the content pirated, or they can be dicks and download my 150,000 in content in the course of a few days for 25.00 and post it for the world, and all i got was 25.00. I am by no means some big corporation making millions and raping the consumer, and I provide a good product with a fair price, but I can never compete with free if someone is willing to break the law. So you do not see this as stealing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 www.myspace.com/echofission None of our new somgs are up yet as we haven't finished the CD yet. I think there are 3 from our last CD and one from our first. cool, i will check it out tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 You have an extremely simple minded viewpoint on the matter. So I go and shoot a scene, it costs me about 4,000 to shoot one scene. I have 35 on my site and add a new one every week. that is 140,000 in my cost in content, plus the thousands in other business costs. I charge 25.00 a month for someone to access this growing library. 25.00 (less then the cost of one dvd!) a month to access a content library that costs over 150,000 to create and grows every week by at least 4,000 in cost is a great deal!!!! Nobody will deny that, but at the end of the day if someone knows where to go they can find a lot of the content pirated, or they can be dicks and download my 150,000 in content in the course of a few days for 25.00 and post it for the world, and all i got was 25.00. I am by no means some big corporation making millions and raping the consumer, and I provide a good product with a fair price, but I can never compete with free if someone is willing to break the law. So you do not see this as stealing? Nevermind him, I'm going to his house tomorrow to take a giant **** in his toilet. Shoudln't bother him since I'm not actually taking his toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetheelz Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Nevermind him, I'm going to his house tomorrow to take a giant **** in his toilet. Shoudln't bother him since I'm not actually taking his toilet. They did that on the Jackass movie. One of the guys took a dump in the display toilet at a hardware store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_blood Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 WAWAWAWAH! You complain about the music industry, but you still subject yourselves to it! That is the choice you make, you feel that you need the product, you ****ing pay for it. When you subscribe to something like cable, which was originally commercial free, you subscribe also to daily ass poundings that get worse as time goes on. I hate people that are all like "METALLICA SUX! THEY SUBSCRIBED TO EVIL CAPITALISM!". First off, Shut the **** up already. Joebabyny would understand, if you make porn, but someone puts your porn productions up for free so some little 13 year old **** can shank the shaft without daddy's credit card, where are people going to get your product, the free place, or your place where it costs you money to make the production and you need profit. Its called capitalism idiots, America is capitalism, the government protects capitalism and if people would stop only complaining and sitting on their asses like all these arm chair pinkos and did something maybe you would see what you want. Either put up, or shut up and take it up the ass from corporations like Viacom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 So it's totally cool for me to come into your house every morning at take my morning constitutional? I'm not taking anything from you, just using your things for my own personal use. Sorry dude, totally dumb argument. You're stealing plain as day. You don't understand what I said obviously. You're not taking anything, you're making a copy of it for your own use. Unless you're making a copy of my yard and then using it how you want it, its a stupid analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 You have an extremely simple minded viewpoint on the matter. So I go and shoot a scene, it costs me about 4,000 to shoot one scene. I have 35 on my site and add a new one every week. that is 140,000 in my cost in content, plus the thousands in other business costs. I charge 25.00 a month for someone to access this growing library. 25.00 (less then the cost of one dvd!) a month to access a content library that costs over 150,000 to create and grows every week by at least 4,000 in cost is a great deal!!!! Nobody will deny that, but at the end of the day if someone knows where to go they can find a lot of the content pirated, or they can be dicks and download my 150,000 in content in the course of a few days for 25.00 and post it for the world, and all i got was 25.00. I am by no means some big corporation making millions and raping the consumer, and I provide a good product with a fair price, but I can never compete with free if someone is willing to break the law. So you do not see this as stealing? I'm not talking about giving stuff to other people. Imo, that guy wouldn't be guilty of theft, but he would be guilty of copyright infringment if as part of the contract giving him access to your site he can only reproduce(download) the content for backup purposes. But, imo, I don't think the people taking from his free site are doing anything wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I'm not talking about giving stuff to other people. Imo, that guy wouldn't be guilty of theft, but he would be guilty of copyright infringment if as part of the contract giving him access to your site he can only reproduce(download) the content for backup purposes. But, imo, I don't think the people taking from his free site are doing anything wrong. So if I come to your house and start throwing your **** in the street, it's totally cool for other people to take it. I would be the only one in the wrong eve3n if you asked the other people to stop taking your stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 So if I come to your house and start throwing your **** in the street, it's totally cool for other people to take it. I would be the only one in the wrong eve3n if you asked the other people to stop taking your stuff? You still don't get it. Thats another ridiculous analogy. If you take something from my house, I will no longer own it; it will no longer be in my possession. Thats not the same as making a copy of something, obviously(or so I thought). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 You still don't get it. Thats another ridiculous analogy. If you take something from my house, I will no longer own it; it will no longer be in my possession. Thats not the same as making a copy of something, obviously(or so I thought). That's nonsense. Just because something is physically not tangible does not mean it can be freely taken away. You're using a ridiculous argument to justify theft, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 That's nonsense. Just because something is physically not tangible does not mean it can be freely taken away. You're using a ridiculous argument to justify theft, plain and simple. Its not theft because after you take it, the person you "took" it from still possesses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackbackblock Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 It amazes me when you see a new movie being promoted on myspace. Just astounds me actually. It astounds me too. TV shows do it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_blood Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I think my post should have ended this argument. If you are freeloading, be glad you were able to do that for as long as you did and no one made an example of you. Don't bitch when you have to pay for it, if you really want it, you gotta pay for it. Its elementary people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Its not theft because after you take it, the person you "took" it from still possesses it. You "took" or better yet "stole" the proceeds that musician or band would have otherwise received if the song/album was purchased through legal means. So in turn the musician/band does not possess the proceeds they legally are entitled to. Not to mention, you are receiving stolen goods that the original theif, in your example the website such as limewire, which is also illegal. Being specific to what those stolen goods are, again itis the proceeds that the original musician/band should have received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 You "took" or better yet "stole" the proceeds that musician or band would have otherwise received if the song/album was purchased through legal means. So in turn the musician/band does not possess the proceeds they legally are entitled to. Not to mention, you are receiving stolen goods that the original theif, in your example the website such as limewire, which is also illegal. Being specific to what those stolen goods are, again itis the proceeds that the original musician/band should have received. Its still not theft, imo. If someone isn't going to buy something in the first place, how are they stealing the proceeds they would have never spent in the first place? If that same band is putting on a show and charging $20 at the gate and somebody walks by the place where they're playing and can hear the music from outside, and then stays to listen without going inside, are they stealing the proceeds too? The person who originally puts it up on limewire is breaking copyright laws, but he isn't "stealing" anything either because he already has it. Therefore, there can be no recieving of stolen goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Its still not theft, imo. If someone isn't going to buy something in the first place, how are they stealing the proceeds they would have never spent in the first place? If that same band is putting on a show and charging $20 at the gate and somebody walks by the place where they're playing and can hear the music from outside, and then stays to listen without going inside, are they stealing the proceeds too? The person who originally puts it up on limewire is breaking copyright laws, but he isn't "stealing" anything either because he already has it. Therefore, there can be no recieving of stolen goods. OK, so in your estimation everybody can freely take music whenever they want with the excuse that they had no intent to pay for it otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebabyny Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 OK, so in your estimation everybody can freely take music whenever they want with the excuse that they had no intent to pay for it otherwise? Boozer, I can't even debate in this thread anymore, it just isn't possible to debate someone who refuses to use any real logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 OK, so in your estimation everybody can freely take music whenever they want with the excuse that they had no intent to pay for it otherwise? If they truly didn't intend to, then its not theft. Call it something else if you want, I'm not sure what it would be though. You can't steal something from somebody without hurting them in any way. Boozer, I can't even debate in this thread anymore, it just isn't possible to debate someone who refuses to use any real logic. If thats what you want to tell yourself so you don't have to waste anymore time, then by all means tell yourself that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 If they truly didn't intend to, then its not theft. Call it something else if you want, I'm not sure what it would be though. You can't steal something from somebody without hurting them in any way. If thats what you want to tell yourself so you don't have to waste anymore time, then by all means tell yourself that. You just don't get it. You are hurting them by taking something for free that legally should have been paid for. If you are not willing to pay for it, you should not have it at all. Plain and simple. How in the world would a court of law legitimately decide whether someone was willing to pay for music or not? I could go and download every song ever created, get caught, and simply say that I would never had paid for it, therefore I didn't hurt anyone. No court of law could paossibly discredit that, even though you know full and well that the defense is idiotic. If you are not willing to pay for it, then you should not have the right to possess the song, plain and simple. when you go to an amusement park, do you not pay at the door? If you do, then why? You have not hurt them by taking their roller coaster away, you just rode on it. But at any rate, you'd be charged with trespassing and theft of services. Music is a service. When you listen to it on the radio, those services are paid for in royalties, giving you the right to listen to it. When you listen to or own a song through illegal means, it is theft of service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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