Thoughts:

[PantyHose&Furs]

I agree with some of the folks on this board:

I'm as down as anyone. I'm as disappointed as anyone. I'm as frustrated as anyone.

But the knee jerk reactions I'm reading about all over this message board is crazy.

1. Fire Mangini - 90% of this board RAVED about this guy less than 12-months ago.
   
2. We finally get to see Clemens in the real deal and already lots of folks are ready to dump him...c'mon folks building a team isn't like playing a video game. You have to put the peices in place and give it a chance to work.

We have talent issues and we're playing terribly. The whole world saw that yesterday.

However, here's what I see that can turn into something positive in the future:

1. Revis and Harris can both play. Period. Revis is a hard-nosed tackler and thus far for a Rookie has looked very strong in coverage. Harris flat out gets it already. Not only does he get there...he makes ballcarriers pay the price when he arrives (he manhandled Marion Barber III yesterday)...
   
2. Clemens is the 4th youngest starter in the league who will be getting great quality experience against real defenses and teams (B'more, Pitt, Dallas, NE...). He's going to struggle - they all do - but he will learn from it. He's got some tools...
   
3. Mangold and D'Brick are a start. We need to compliment them. Period. But they are getting great experience for young players in key positions...and are durable!
   
4. Baker is finally involved with Clemens there.

It's not much...but for us at least we have young, developing talent in key spots: QB, LT, C, LB, CB...

[gang_green03]

You sound like a rational person. To bad there's not a lot of rational thought on this board.

[Cmart28Coles87]

I agree despite our record this team is still heading in the right direction. All rebuilding periods always have one down year. We'll get a good draft picks and a lot of picks and I think Mangini will make good use of them as he's shown.

[Jet Moses]

We just need a defensive line, and 3 O-linemen and we'll be spinning like a top.

[pjam76]

I agree despite our record this team is still heading in the right direction. All rebuilding periods always have one down year. We'll get a good draft picks and a lot of picks and I think Mangini will make good use of them as he's shown.

Barlow, Ramsey, Jones, and half the draft picks they've taken aren't exactly good uses.

I'll give them credit in finding some decent players in the draft, but it's the only thing they've done. They don't trade well and the sure don't sign good free agents.

So over the past 2 years they have Mangold, Dbrick, Revis and Harris as legit starters.

Washington is a special teams player who never plays on offense. Smith might catch 2 passes in a game. KC is unknown at this point. Thomas Jones was a pointless trade.

So I wish I had the same faith as you in this regime actually knowing what they are doing. But 2-9 and having every single thing worse now than it was in 2005 speaks a different story.

[JetCane]

Barlow, Ramsey, Jones, and half the draft picks they've taken aren't exactly good uses.

I'll give them credit in finding some decent players in the draft, but it's the only thing they've done. They don't trade well and the sure don't sign good free agents.

So over the past 2 years they have Mangold, Dbrick, Revis and Harris as legit starters.

Washington is a special teams player who never plays on offense. Smith might catch 2 passes in a game. KC is unknown at this point. Thomas Jones was a pointless trade.

So I wish I had the same faith as you in this regime actually knowing what they are doing. But 2-9 and having every single thing worse now than it was in 2005 speaks a different story.

So over a two year period, we got two OL starters and lost one, so we are net plus one starter on the OL. The same OL that was sooo bad that they had to spend two first round picks on it two years ago. We are net plus one starter on the OL in two years. Not good, not good.

[pjam76]

So over a two year period, we got two OL starters and lost one, so we are net plus one starter on the OL. The same OL that was sooo bad that they had to spend two first round picks on it two years ago. We are net plus one starter on the OL in two years. Not good, not good.

Is the OL better now than in 2005? Not at all. So as much as I like Mangold and Dbrick, with them or without them, the OL still sucks. What does that say?

Either they aren't that good or our coaching staff isn't improving the talent they do have.

THe OL in 2005 consisted of mostly backup players cause the starters were hurt. The coaching staff was on its way out. 2 seasons later with 2 new OL and the line still sucks is not good at all.

Improving means getting better, not worse.

[drago]

We just need a defensive line, and 3 O-linemen and we'll be spinning like a top.

I disagree on the Olinemen. Moore is average, but he's certainly not bad. By putting two quality players around him, he will turn out to be more than serviceable. Imagine the handicap he is playing with, having clement next to him? Same with Brick.

[#27TheDominator]

Barlow, Ramsey, Jones, and half the draft picks they've taken aren't exactly good uses.

Barlow and Ramsey were emergency trades. They needed a RB because Curtis suddenly was retiring and a QB because there was no way to know that Chad was coming back. They were also hamstrung with the cap last year. All the cutesy trading at draft time notwithstanding, I don't have too much problem with the trades. FA signings have been pretty lame though.

[GimmeShelter]

Barlow, Ramsey, Jones, and half the draft picks they've taken aren't exactly good uses.

I'll give them credit in finding some decent players in the draft, but it's the only thing they've done. They don't trade well and the sure don't sign good free agents.

So over the past 2 years they have Mangold, Dbrick, Revis and Harris as legit starters.

Washington is a special teams player who never plays on offense. Smith might catch 2 passes in a game. KC is unknown at this point. Thomas Jones was a pointless trade.

So I wish I had the same faith as you in this regime actually knowing what they are doing. But 2-9 and having every single thing worse now than it was in 2005 speaks a different story.

Barlow at the time was a must.....same for Ramsey as we did not know if Chad would play again let alone start.

Jones is not the awful trade you suggest...the OL is playing far worse than ANYONE imagined. Last season many suggested all we needed was a RB and we were good to go.

Leon has 43 rushes and 22 receptions so he does indeed play on offense.

Clemens is also a legit starter so that gives us 5 starters plus Leon who is a weapon and will be even more of one once the offense gets straightened out in. That total in 2 drafts is nowhere near awful.

I'd be anxious to see your laundry list of teams that have faired so much better.

Like I have said before, kill the FO if they fail to address the OL this coming off season and draft but you can't plug every leak at once.

[pjam76]

Barlow and Ramsey were emergency trades. They needed a RB because Curtis suddenly was retiring and a QB because there was no way to know that Chad was coming back. They were also hamstrung with the cap last year. All the cutesy trading at draft time notwithstanding, I don't have too much problem with the trades. FA signings have been pretty lame though.

Martin wasn't suddenly retiring, he was an aging RB with an injury that ends many careers. They should have done something about it a lot sooner than wasting a draft pick on a uselss Barlow.

Building for the future means there is no such thing as emergency trades. Yeah if Curtis Martin was the starter and then in the week before the season started, he goes down to injury, you have to bring somebody in, that's one thing.

Bringing in Barlow or Suggs if he didn't fail a physical, speaks about a regime who had no clue that Martin wouldn't play. And everybody and their brother would've been surprised if Martin did play.

Improving means you trade for players that might still contribute in a year or two. It doesn't mean you trade draft picks for guys who ain't even on the team in a year. You might as well waste draft picks on young players and see if they pan out.

[#27TheDominator]

Martin wasn't suddenly retiring, he was an aging RB with an injury that ends many careers. They should have done something about it a lot sooner than wasting a draft pick on a uselss Barlow.

Building for the future means there is no such thing as emergency trades. Yeah if Curtis Martin was the starter and then in the week before the season started, he goes down to injury, you have to bring somebody in, that's one thing.

Bringing in Barlow or Suggs if he didn't fail a physical, speaks about a regime who had no clue that Martin wouldn't play. And everybody and their brother would've been surprised if Martin did play.

Improving means you trade for players that might still contribute in a year or two. It doesn't mean you trade draft picks for guys who ain't even on the team in a year. You might as well waste draft picks on young players and see if they pan out.

I complained at the time that there should have been a better contingency plan in place, but...

Martin did participate in the mini-camp and I don't think he was limited at that time. They drafted a RB in the 4th round. The team had a huge number of holes to fill. Simply taking a RB because Curtis might be limited would probably be worse in the long term. Building for the future means you should be better off going into the season with a few pieces in place and some glaring holes than below average to average at every slot.

Until the actual camp started there was no way to know 1. Curtis was done. 2. Houston... not so hot. 3. Blaylock, utterly useless. It was obvious from the first or second pre-season game they could not proceed with the crap on hand. I applauded the deal for Suggs because it was pretty obvious they were going to be ditching Strait. I wasn't a fan of the deal, but IMO, Barlow served his purpose and a 4th round pick for a guy who might have been able to stick around was not ridiculous. They couldn't "waste" another pick on a RB because the severity of the problem was not evident until after the draft.

[pjam76]

I complained at the time that there should have been a better contingency plan in place, but...

Martin did participate in the mini-camp and I don't think he was limited at that time. They drafted a RB in the 4th round. The team had a huge number of holes to fill. Simply taking a RB because Curtis might be limited would probably be worse in the long term. Building for the future means you should be better off going into the season with a few pieces in place and some glaring holes than below average to average at every slot.

Until the actual camp started there was no way to know 1. Curtis was done. 2. Houston... not so hot. 3. Blaylock, utterly useless. It was obvious from the first or second pre-season game they could not proceed with the crap on hand. I applauded the deal for Suggs because it was pretty obvious they were going to be ditching Strait. I wasn't a fan of the deal, but IMO, Barlow served his purpose and a 4th round pick for a guy who might have been able to stick around was not ridiculous. They couldn't "waste" another pick on a RB because the severity of the problem was not evident until after the draft.

I would agree if they didn't spend a draft pick and make another trade the next off season to get a 29 year old RB. Either trade for a guy like Turner, play Washington more, or stick with what you have..

Barlow served no purpose for a team looking to build a future. He was a wasted 4th round pick on a team that needs all the picks and players it could muster up.

[Smizzy]

I agree with some of the folks on this board:

I'm as down as anyone. I'm as disappointed as anyone. I'm as frustrated as anyone.

But the knee jerk reactions I'm reading about all over this message board is crazy.

1. Fire Mangini - 90% of this board RAVED about this guy less than 12-months ago.
   
2. We finally get to see Clemens in the real deal and already lots of folks are ready to dump him...c'mon folks building a team isn't like playing a video game. You have to put the peices in place and give it a chance to work.

We have talent issues and we're playing terribly. The whole world saw that yesterday.

However, here's what I see that can turn into something positive in the future:

1. Revis and Harris can both play. Period. Revis is a hard-nosed tackler and thus far for a Rookie has looked very strong in coverage. Harris flat out gets it already. Not only does he get there...he makes ballcarriers pay the price when he arrives (he manhandled Marion Barber III yesterday)...
   
2. Clemens is the 4th youngest starter in the league who will be getting great quality experience against real defenses and teams (B'more, Pitt, Dallas, NE...). He's going to struggle - they all do - but he will learn from it. He's got some tools...
   
3. Mangold and D'Brick are a start. We need to compliment them. Period. But they are getting great experience for young players in key positions...and are durable!
   
4. Baker is finally involved with Clemens there.

It's not much...but for us at least we have young, developing talent in key spots: QB, LT, C, LB, CB...

Agree 100% .

[PantyHose&Furs]

Agree 100% .

By and large I think most posters will agree that as much as we despise him Billy Bellicheat is the standard by which all coaches are compared. Hearing all the frustrations, etc. I decided to do a little research and learned something interesting:

Before Billy Boy stumbled upon Brady he had a career winning percentage as a head coach of 43%. So for all of his brilliance it wasn't until he found a QB that he started to win.

Bottom Line: If we as long time Jets fans want to experience sustained success we should be closely watching Kellen's development and be patient as he hopefully develops into a QB that can win.

Take a look at the successful franchises and it all starts with stability at the QB spot.

After 3 starts I'm hopeful but still haven't seen enough.

I'm excited that he's going to compete against some of the best in the NFL this year.

From my perspective if Mangini can develop this kid then we've got a chance at long term success.

Revis/Harris, etc on the defensive side is a good foundation.

It all goes back to the QB!

[jaspegs]

We just need a defensive line, and 3 O-linemen and we'll be spinning like a top.

JUST IS A BIG WORD.