JonEJet Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Finally someone gets it http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/yankees/2008/12/theos-good-but-so-is-cashman.html Theo's good, but so is Cashman December 4, 2008 Brian Cashman has had a tough start to his winter, for no other reason than he hasn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor99 Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Cashman is a solid GM Nobody has ever said different. The title of this thread is "Cash>Theo". I guess you didn't even read the article you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBizkit87 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Personally I don't think either are any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I'm not a big Cashman fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 The article gave Cashman credit for Cano, Wang, and Chamberlain, but at the same time takes credit away from Epstein for Youkilis, Pedroia et al. as the result of the scouting department. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 No. It's stupid. The GM hires the scouts, and makes the ultimate decisions based on their reports. The GM is therefore responsible for ALL of the consequences of the actions he takes, good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbro22 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 The article was just saying that Cash is more involved in the scouting process then Theo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 The article was just saying that Cash is more involved in the scouting process then Theo. Cashman is the lead man on all baseball operations, but he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 4 > 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Bit Special Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 What a stupid article. Does it really matter which one is better? No. They both make good and bad moves. They both have had success. The only reason why I give the nod to Theo is he has won 2 championships in the last 5 years. Plus when he came in he turned them into a perennial contender from the pretenders they had been for years. I'd rather have Cashman over Minaya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Bit Special Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 JonEJet- The comments are based on the article, not on what you said... this was the only way to quote it. I take exception to what the author wrote, not you. Brian Cashman has had a tough start to his winter, for no other reason than he hasn’t been able to convince CC Sabathia to sign despite offering him more money than any pitcher has ever been offered. Then again, if you were to grade general managers based on their activity this winter, only Jim Hendry of the Cubs would have a passing grade based on the Ryan Dempster signing. Beyond that, not one prominent player has signed, so the jury is out on everybody. I didnt realize we were grading GM's by what they have done before the winter meetings. It only means something when you miss out on players. I’ve heard several people in recent weeks and months declare that Cashman is being outdone by Theo Epstein in a major way. I realize that the Red Sox have won two titles since 2004 while Cashman’s team hasn’t won a title since 2000, but I’m missing the part where Theo is redefining what it means to be a GM. Several people? Who? On the train? Online? Is somebody making up a fake controversy? Sure sounds like it. Yankee fans what would you prefer, getting the right players or having your GM being perceived to be better than Theo? Red Sox have won 2 championships in 5 years. Yankees nothing since 2000. Red Sox have done better. How has Cashman redefined what it means to be a GM? He hasnt. Theo changes the way the Red Sox do business and evaluate talent. He got them championships they didnt have for 86 years. He changed the culture in Boston. Cashman deserves a lot of credit for what he has accomplished with the Yankees, but to discount what Theo has done is dumb. Have some of Boston’s moves worked out well? Absolutely. But it takes no more skill to bid $51.1 million on Daisuke Matsuzaka (then pay him another $50 million or so) than it does to offer Sabathia $140 million. Coco Crisp and Julio Lugo were two of Theo’s acquisitions that were believed to be tremendous moves when they were made, yet both proved to be huge disappointments. But when you win, those things are forgotten - as well they should be. It takes a brain to figure out what the market is and make sure you are above the market. With a FA you know where the market is. With Daisuke, you submitted blind bids with no knowledge of what other teams are doing. I give a hell of a lot more credit to a guy who beats everyone else in a blind bid versus a guy who signs FA's for top dollar. Takes zero skill to pay top dollar. Coco hasnt been as good as hoped but he isnt a huge disappointment. He has had pretty good seasons for the Sawx. He did well enough to get them to Ellsbury to take over. Every GM makes good and bad moves. And bad moves are forgotton when you win. Winning cures all ills. Theo made a great trade for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell, but he did give up Hanley Ramirez in that trade, and some argue that Ramirez is already a top-5 player in the majors and could top that list at some point. The Yankees haven’t had a player like Ramirez to deal away. If they did, they may have made a move for Beckett at that time, though they still wouldn’t have been able to take Lowell and his $18 million in a deal because they already had A-Rod at third base. They could have gotten Santana for a package led by Phil Hughes, but Cashman opted not to for many reasons, most notably that he feels Hughes will be a front-line starter soon enough. Ok... it was a great trade but they gave up a really good player... AND? You have to give up value to get value. When making a deal you cant worry about how good a player could/will become. You make it based off on what you get in return. You cant worry about Ramirez success. And you cant worry about deals you couldnt make. The Yankees didnt have what it took to make that deal. They could have made the deal for Beckett. They could have made the deal for Santana. He didnt. And what do the Yankees need? Pitchers. Hmm... sounds like other GM's beat Cashman here. Cashman has made several moves in recent years that backfired, namely Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa and to some extent, Randy Johnson. But to say he’s destroyed this team is a gross misrepresentation. Where would the Yankees be without Chien-Ming Wang, Robinson Cano or Joba Chamberlain? Say what you will about Johnny Damon, but he’s given the Yankees the leadoff hitter they expected to get when they signed him three years ago. Everybody screamed that the Yankees were crazy to bring Mike Mussina back in 2008 and he won 20 games. Doesn’t Cashman get some credit for not dumping Mussina after his subpar 2007? Who said he destroyed the team? Just you did to try and make a point no one else cares about. And as every fan knows, every GM makes bad moves. What matters is how the good moves/bad moves balance out. If it leads to a championship it cures all ills. If you miss the playoffs your mistakes are magnified. And yes, Cashman gets credit for sticking with Moose. Does Theo get credit for letting Orlando Cabrera leave via free agency and getting compensation pick which turned into Jacoby Ellsbury? Yes, Cashman inherited Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada, but there isn’t another player on the roster that was there when he took over as GM in 1998, and yet the Yankees made the postseason every year of his reign until last season. His trades - particularly the midseason deals for guys like Bobby Abreu and Xavier Nady - have worked out well. The jury is still out on the prospects he got back for Johnson and Gary Sheffield, but simply ridding his team of those two guys when he did was more than enough to qualify those as moderate successes. So ridding the Sawx of Manny is a success too, right? Even if the prospects dont pan out? Shouldnt he get crap for having Sheff and Johnson on the team to begin with? Have the Yankees drafted well? Not particularly. Chamberlain is a star in the making, while Hughes is still just 22 and could become a big-time pitcher, too. Austin Jackson is seen as the center fielder of the future and there are some other players at the lower levels (some were drafted, others signed as international free agents) that could make an impact down the road. Cashman is the lead man on all baseball operations, but he’s not the guy that has scouted the players, so the blame can’t fall entirely on his shoulders. Just the same, Theo isn’t out scouting players for the Red Sox, so the credit for guys like Dustin Pedroia, Justin Masterson, Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon and Jon Lester goes to the Red Sox scouts more than to the GM. Red Sox have drafted better, but Cashman doesnt deserve criticism for this? He is the head of baseball operations, so he put the scouts in place, but he doesnt deserve all the blame? And Theo has drafted better, but he doesnt deserve credit? When you run the operation you deserve the credit and the blame. GM's get fired all the time because the team drafts poorly. Clearly the Red Sox have had more success in the past five years than the Yankees, but to say that it’s purely the result of the general managers and their moves is na Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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