New York Jets Mafia Game Thread

[CTM]

vote AVM

he was my first suspicion, and I'm inclined to let Slats and Dan X play out for another day or 2..

It's good that the vig/serial killer nailed JVOR last night, but at the same time, it makes today's hunt more difficult due to a lower % of scum and also because we don't have a a vote train on scum to review like we would've had if we lynched him ourselves..

[slats]

If I was Mafia, I would want a vigilante/serial killer dead asap. You have the possibility of seeing lynches coming and taking some defensive action against them or working them into your plans. You have no way of seeing a NK coming. It's basically a random factor that can work for either side depending on who gets the role. Last game, after we found out SMC was one, he was still going to be high on our list even if he wasn't modkilled. The only reason we might have kept him around was because EY had him buddied up and on the path to maybe doing our bidding. We probably would have picked him off at the first sign of him turning from us. I think you're either grasping at straws here or actively trying to put the pressure on someone other than yourself.

I don't think I'd want the vig/SK killed right away if I was mafia. Eventually? Absolutely! But allowing him to do his thing for a couple nights is likely to do the town more harm than good. He got lucky last night, no doubt. Or we did. Either way, with no hard evidence the night killer is three times more likely to take out an innocent than scum tonight. If I was scum, I'd take those odds.

EY originally said the NK'er would have to be taken out, but then gave a little shrug of an answer when I said either role (SK or vig) was a danger to the town. That's what stuck with me.

[CTM]

What do we think about the game set-up? Was this extra NK a townie/vigilante, or a serial killer? How would that impact the way the scum team was set up? Would such a role make it less likely that there's a godfather in this game? I'd think it would, right? An extra player with NK capabilities would be a big advantage for the scum (townie or not) without the luxury of a godfather. The addition of a godfather would really tilt the scales towards them.

The reason I bring it up is because I welcome an investigation, if it hasn't happened already. I'm thinking our cop can trust his results. If there are any trackers in this game, they know I didn't go anywhere last night.

Thanks for bumping this..

I really didn't like this post, but again, slats seems to smart to be so obvious. He's basically using the second night kill to plant the idea that there's no godfather in the game, and hence the cop can trust his results, while then asking to be investigated. If he was the godfather this is a very advantageous line of thought to get out there..

[slats]

A serial killer is not beneficial to either scum or the town, as they win when they eliminate anyone. A vigilante is beneficial to the town in that he can hunt scum, but also potentially destructive

I didn't elaborate, because wholly it doesn't matter.

You've thrown out the SMC situation as a reason why it matters, but here's the deal... Last game, I KNEW SMC was telling the truth. A vigilante/SK cannot be manipulated if he's undercover.

You think I could just say, "Whoever the SK/Vigilante is, please kill __________". They'll do what they want until they're outted. Plus, if a SK, a kill is a kill, they don't care.

I didn't continue to discuss it with you, because honestly, I don't think it matters right now. Either way, the goal should be to find him, and find scum. The intrinsic details of his abilities aren't going to keep anyone alive any longer.

Fair enough.

But I do think the SK/vig could easily be manipulated, especially if he's a newer/weaker player, and the manipulation is coming from a stronger player. When a CTM says "I think the cop should investigate slats or Dan X," I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that he's more likely to've done that than not. And if there's a few people saying, "we should've lynched player x," or there's a train that stopped, or there's one strong player saying, "this is who I'd NK tonight - that player's going to at least be influenced.

[SMC]

EY knows full well that a serial killer/vigilante is most likely going to be detrimental to the town. His initial reply here is one of his innocent shrugs, but he knows better. In the last game as a mafia godfather, he was looking to ride SMC the vigilante to help him double his NK's. SMC even replied in the game postmortem that he was all set to be Bud White to EY's Dudley Smith. A great analogy, BTW.

Even without a puppet master, an innocent vigilante only has his own instincts to go on, and as a result is probably more likely to hit an innocent player than scum. It's a role that's dangerous to the town.

Again, EY knows this. When I point out to him that he knows it first hand, he drops it. Why?

It's bothering me.

Thanks on the compliment!

And I personally know how a vigilante has the potential to wreck havoc on the town. It's a heck of a weapon and should be used cautiously (something I didn't do the 1st night last game) but hit bullseye on Night 2 (Doggin being the rival Godfather).

Interesting point on EY's apparent avoiding of the issue. I don't know if that means he's scum.

If there is a vigilante out there (as opposed to a serial killer), then I suggest that he act veeeeerrrryyy cautiously. The vigilante should not reveal himself (), but after the day's vote I believe would should all opine on who the vigilante (assuming there is one) should have cut. OR, direct the vigilante not to act.

The town should take control over the vigilante rather than 1 player (we were working toward that last game but it never panned out).

But, Perhaps There Isn't A Vigilante/Serial Killer at All?

I have to assume that every word has meaning in what Bleedin has written (similary to what CTM did last game). There's been 3 results that we've seen: player cut (by vote), suspended, and benched.

The town by vote has the power to cut.

"Woody" suspends players based on the rival players framing any innocent player. But he benches the rival player. The latter was done on the word of a player who informed Woody.

Maybe there isn't a Vigilante or Serial Killer at all? Perhaps there is an investigator/cop, who puts in a name and then if that name comes up scum the player gets benched.

The Serial Killer/Vigilante would have equal power as the scum right? That means JVoR should have been suspended just the same, not benched based on the word of an unamed player.

If I had to bet on it, JVoR was taken down by the investigator/cop and NOT by a vigilante/serial killer.

[slats]

Thanks for bumping this..

I really didn't like this post, but again, slats seems to smart to be so obvious. He's basically using the second night kill to plant the idea that there's no godfather in the game, and hence the cop can trust his results, while then asking to be investigated. If he was the godfather this is a very advantageous line of thought to get out there..

I left the whole post in there on purpose. I have nothing to hide and didn't want it to look like I did.

If you were to assume that I was making an honest inquiry, though, what do you think? Do you think it's likely that there's a vig/SK in this game and a godfather? That would seem to tilt the game in the scum's favor, IMHO.

[ZachEY]

Fair enough.

But I do think the SK/vig could easily be manipulated, especially if he's a newer/weaker player, and the manipulation is coming from a stronger player. When a CTM says "I think the cop should investigate slats or Dan X," I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that he's more likely to've done that than not. And if there's a few people saying, "we should've lynched player x," or there's a train that stopped, or there's one strong player saying, "this is who I'd NK tonight - that player's going to at least be influenced.

If I'm the cop, I'm investigating CTM for trying to manipulate me. When he's cleared, I'll look at the guys he wants.

And if it's a vigilante, which is far less likely than a serial killer, based on previous games, then perhaps he could be manipulated without revealing.

However, if it is a serial killer, that player has no reason to care who they kill, because they need everyone to die.

[SMC]

I left the whole post in there on purpose. I have nothing to hide and didn't want it to look like I did.

If you were to assume that I was making an honest inquiry, though, what do you think? Do you think it's likely that there's a vig/SK in this game and a godfather? That would seem to tilt the game in the scum's favor, IMHO.

It doesn't tilt the game in the scum's favor if there is a vigilante and a godfather, only if there's a SK & godfather. Despite the potential havoc, a vigilante is on the town's side.

Ultimately, how do we know?

The town can win the game by eliminating all the mafia with the vigilante alive. The town can't win the game if the serial killer is left alive and all the mafia are dead.

Town has to kill mafia & serial killer to win.

Mafia has to kill town, serial killer & vigilante to win.

Serial killer has to kill town, mafia & vigilante to win.

Vigilante wins if town wins.

[slats]

Maybe there isn't a Vigilante or Serial Killer at all? Perhaps there is an investigator/cop, who puts in a name and then if that name comes up scum the player gets benched.

That would be a helluva role for the town. An investigator who immediately knocks out any guilty player he investigates? That seems unlikely. Maybe one of the more experienced players could say if they've seen such a role before.

The Serial Killer/Vigilante would have equal power as the scum right? That means JVoR should have been suspended just the same, not benched based on the word of an unamed player.

We saw it in the last game. When you took out a player, they were shot. When scum took out a player, they were arrested. Either way, that player was gone from the game.

[CTM]

I left the whole post in there on purpose. I have nothing to hide and didn't want it to look like I did.

If you were to assume that I was making an honest inquiry, though, what do you think? Do you think it's likely that there's a vig/SK in this game and a godfather? That would seem to tilt the game in the scum's favor, IMHO.

It depends really. If the setup is 12/4 and the vig is an aggressive player, that person is likely to hurt the town more then help it.

we have to find out about other power roles before we decide on mafia powers imo.

[slats]

If I'm the cop, I'm investigating CTM for trying to manipulate me. When he's cleared, I'll look at the guys he wants.

That's you. A less experienced player might be more likely to follow what he considers to be good advice.

And if it's a vigilante, which is far less likely than a serial killer, based on previous games, then perhaps he could be manipulated without revealing.

However, if it is a serial killer, that player has no reason to care who they kill, because they need everyone to die.

That's certainly true.

You're definitely leaning towards serial killer, then. What about a godfather? Do you think this game has one of those, too?

[slats]

It doesn't tilt the game in the scum's favor if there is a vigilante and a godfather, only if there's a SK & godfather. Despite the potential havoc, a vigilante is on the town's side.

Ultimately, how do we know?

The town can win the game by eliminating all the mafia with the vigilante alive. The town can't win the game if the serial killer is left alive and all the mafia are dead.

Town has to kill mafia & serial killer to win.

Mafia has to kill town, serial killer & vigilante to win.

Serial killer has to kill town, mafia & vigilante to win.

Vigilante wins if town wins.

It depends really. If the setup is 12/4 and the vig is an aggressive player, that person is likely to hurt the town more then help it.

we have to find out about other power roles before we decide on mafia powers imo.

That's my take on the role. He may certainly want to help the town, but the odds are that he'll do more harm than good. So I think the addition of such a role helps the scum.

Would a vig have the option to not submit a NK? Or would he have to? If he has to, that increases the danger.

[ZachEY]

That's you. A less experienced player might be more likely to follow what he considers to be good advice.

That's certainly true.

You're definitely leaning towards serial killer, then. What about a godfather? Do you think this game has one of those, too?

I don't know. And unless I'm the investigator (I'm not), I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

[ZachEY]

That's my take on the role. He may certainly want to help the town, but the odds are that he'll do more harm than good. So I think the addition of such a role helps the scum.

Would a vig have the option to not submit a NK? Or would he have to? If he has to, that increases the danger.

Night actions are optional.

[slats]

Night actions are optional.

Always? Good to know.

[ZachEY]

Always? Good to know.

Night one last game I chose not to make an arrest.

I did that because I was expecting the other team to arrest someone, and I didn't want to give off the idea that there were two teams out there.

[ZachEY]

If I had to bet on it, JVoR was taken down by the investigator/cop and NOT by a vigilante/serial killer.

Vote SMC.

This is the biggest load of **** I've ever read in a mafia game.

[SMC]

Vote SMC.

This is the biggest load of **** I've ever read in a mafia game.

Why is that a load of ****? Player X gave information to Woody and Woody benched JVoR. That doesn't really seem like a vigilante, does it? In last game it made sense that the vigilante, as a Goodfella would whack someone but the cops would arrest someone.

But a vigilante who who leads to a guy getting benched? Why wasn't JVoR cut?

[ZachEY]

Why is that a load of ****? Player X gave information to Woody and Woody benched JVoR. That doesn't really seem like a vigilante, does it? In last game it made sense that the vigilante, as a Goodfella would whack someone but the cops would arrest someone.

But a vigilante who who leads to a guy getting benched? Why wasn't JVoR cut?

Because you're suggesting a role that should aptly be titled: GOD.

You've *imagined* a player to ability to search out scum, and then rather than like a typical cop, have to either role reveal, putting himself on the line. Or sway the crowd with a strong argument in the day... Has the ability to then kill that player at night, if scum.

[Dan.]

That said, offing scum at night is a HUGE bonus, but I believe we're going to need to take down both night killers to win.

Ok. Posted a few short thoughts. Now for more detail.

We've learned something here with the two NKs.

First, and most obviously, the scum team took down JiF. We need to go back and look at JiF and see what he's done.

Second, there's a serial killer (or vigilante who got lucky). I tend to believe serial killer. And, based on the 'benching', it's most likely Rex Ryan. As coaches are the ones to do the benching.

In games of this nature, there's often 4 scum to start and one SK. We're probably down to 3 Scum. So, we can thank the SK for doing our work for us, but need to watch out for him still, as unless he has some other finder abilities, the odds say he's going to miss.

This is what I mentioned earlier, to counter Slats' idea that EY was trying to claim a serial killer/vigilante was good for the town. In both of these quotes, EY seemed perfectly aware of the dangers ...

[Bleedin Green]

Vote Count:

Vicious89x (2) - Doggin94it, SMC

AVM (2) - Pac2566, CTM

SMC (1) - EY

With 13 players remaining, it takes 7 votes to cut.

[SMC]

Because you're suggesting a role that should aptly be titled: GOD.

You've *imagined* a player to ability to search out scum, and then rather than like a typical cop, have to either role reveal, putting himself on the line. Or sway the crowd with a strong argument in the day... Has the ability to then kill that player at night, if scum.

God. LOL.

It's not an all powerful role. The cop submits a name and if it comes back mafia, then that player is taken out. It's a blind choice. The cop doesn't know whether the person he is investigating is scum.

The player submits a name for investigation. If the player comes out mafia, he's out, if innocent the player plays on.

Look at what Bleedin wrote. Bleedin said that this "Player X" KNEW that JVoR was scum and told Woody about it. Woody then benched JVoR. A vigilante doesn't know anything. He merely takes people out. But this Player X had information. Thus, the closest I can think of is a player with investigative powers.

[Vicious89x]

Because you're suggesting a role that should aptly be titled: GOD.

You've *imagined* a player to ability to search out scum, and then rather than like a typical cop, have to either role reveal, putting himself on the line. Or sway the crowd with a strong argument in the day... Has the ability to then kill that player at night, if scum.

Perhaps... this guy could be Chad Pennington then.

I agree though... this doesn't make sense, that role is way too powerful and scum would have to have a role finder to reverse and based on the night 1 kill, it's not like they killed our doc/cop/anyone powerful.

[SMC]

Perhaps... this guy could be Chad Pennington then.

I agree though... this doesn't make sense, that role is way too powerful and scum would have to have a role finder to reverse and based on the night 1 kill, it's not like they killed our doc/cop/anyone powerful.

My point is that a Vigilante takes a shot in the dark (figure of speech). He submits a name, hoping that the player he submitted is scum and waits to see if he got one or an innocent.

A Vigilante doesn't know if his target is guilty or innocent.

This Player X KNEW that JVoR was Jason Taylor. It wasn't a situation where Player X told Woody to cut someone or bench them based on a hunch. He had INFORMATION.

[Vicious89x]

My point is that a Vigilante takes a shot in the dark (figure of speech). He submits a name, hoping that the player he submitted is scum and waits to see if he got one or an innocent.

A Vigilante doesn't know if his target is guilty or innocent.

This Player X KNEW that JVoR was Jason Taylor. It wasn't a situation where Player X told Woody to cut someone or bench them based on a hunch. He had INFORMATION.

But at the same time you'd have to think that if this god cop "missed" on some information it's still a positive for the town because he can steer the town away from a wrong lynch. It just seems way to powerful and too unbalanced in favor of the town. That's JMO.

[Dan.]

Perhaps... this guy could be Chad Pennington then.

I agree though... this doesn't make sense, that role is way too powerful and scum would have to have a role finder to reverse and based on the night 1 kill, it's not like they killed our doc/cop/anyone powerful.

The "benching" made me wonder if they possibly have the ability to bring JVoR back into the game, but that also seems ridiculous because then we'd obviously know about it, too.

I'm having trouble thinking of what could even out a power like that ...

[ZachEY]

God. LOL.

It's not an all powerful role. The cop submits a name and if it comes back mafia, then that player is taken out. It's a blind choice. The cop doesn't know whether the person he is investigating is scum.

The player submits a name for investigation. If the player comes out mafia, he's out, if innocent the player plays on.

Look at what Bleedin wrote. Bleedin said that this "Player X" KNEW that JVoR was scum and told Woody about it. Woody then benched JVoR. A vigilante doesn't know anything. He merely takes people out. But this Player X had information. Thus, the closest I can think of is a player with investigative powers.

Fact Check SMC, Fact Check.

But that wasn't the end of it. Woody Johnson, already not in the best of moods, apparently had a visitor of his own over the night. And apparently that visitor had some not too flattering things to say about one of his fellow players. As the discussion went on, Woody became convinced that he knew the action to take that was best for his team. It looks like JVoR wasn't going to be able dance his way out of this one. He'll probably go cry about it. Rival Superstar Jason Taylor (Jets Voice of Reason) has been benched.

No. Woody Johnson KNEW what he had to do. Not the other player.

Now, I'm sure you'll say that you made a mistake, but it doesn't explain your creation of the GOD, or lets call him, ROBOCOP role. Again, a typical cop has to manage how he presents his info to gain the trust of the town, without exposing himself for a potential NK. I think we all know this role is too powerful..........

My vote stands.

[SMC]

This is what Bleedin wrote about JVoR being benched

But that wasn't the end of it. Woody Johnson, already not in the best of moods, apparently had a visitor of his own over the night. And apparently that visitor had some not too flattering things to say about one of his fellow players. As the discussion went on, Woody became convinced that he knew the action to take that was best for his team. It looks like JVoR wasn't going to be able dance his way out of this one. He'll probably go cry about it. Rival Superstar Jason Taylor (Jets Voice of Reason) has been benched.

That Player X had information. Vigilantes don't work on anything but a hunch. They have no seperate information to rely on. Player X, however, did.

[ZachEY]

Further, if I were ROBOCOP, I'd claim as quickly as possible, gain the Dr's protection, and then we'd go through the nights eliminating scum, or confirming innocents, no matter how long it took.

[SMC]

Fact Check SMC, Fact Check.

No. Woody Johnson KNEW what he had to do. Not the other player.

Now, I'm sure you'll say that you made a mistake, but it doesn't explain your creation of the GOD, or lets call him, ROBOCOP role. Again, a typical cop has to manage how he presents his info to gain the trust of the town, without exposing himself for a potential NK. I think we all know this role is too powerful..........

My vote stands.

Keep your vote. I also suggest that you re-read what you just quoted (I put it in big font above).

Player X came to Woody with information and Woody acted on it.

[Dan.]

This is what Bleedin wrote about JVoR being benched

That Player X had information. Vigilantes don't work on anything but a hunch. They have no seperate information to rely on. Player X, however, did.

I wouldn't necessarily call that "information" ... unflattering comments could be anything. JVoR has a stupid face. JVoR spends too much time at the gym. Etc.

[SMC]

I wouldn't necessarily call that "information" ... unflattering comments could be anything. JVoR has a stupid face. JVoR spends too much time at the gym. Etc.

LOL

[ZachEY]

Keep your vote. I also suggest that you re-read what you just quoted (I put it in big font above).

Player X came to Woody with information and Woody acted on it.

Not so flattering things could just as easily, in fact more likely mean, 'he sucks', and thusly was benched.

That, or there really is a ROBOCOP.

[Sharrow]

This is what Bleedin wrote about JVoR being benched

That Player X had information. Vigilantes don't work on anything but a hunch. They have no seperate information to rely on. Player X, however, did.

I think you're making too much of that. All that means is that the guy "presented a case" and Woody believed him. Imo, it's just Bleedin' rationalizing the action into the storyline while making it look different than the regular scum NK.

[Vicious89x]

I think you're making too much out of it. For the sake of the "type" of game it is perhaps it is a vigilante who say works for the Jets FO and told Woody "things" to get JVoR "benched". Until we see a player get killed "during a practice" I think we can assume this is a vig and not a Supercop.