JI/JN Border War Mafia Game Thread

[Carlito Brigante]

Ugh. Why did I collect Lefty's posts? Because I had thought it was Tony Montana who had fingered him, and I thought I'd be nice and collect them all into a single spot so people didn't have to read through the entire damned game to case him.

I then read through his posts to see what I could get out of it, and the only thing that I saw was the thing at the beginning of Day one, which I thought could very well be testing the waters and getting reactions because I have seen that happen several times in the past.

The two day silencing did not help me. It was either be lynched two days ago or be lynched today, and all it did was give you something else to debate, was I actually silenced (yes I was) or am I bull****ting you (no I'm not)? I didn't exactly have the opportunity to participate in this game during those two days, and if I had been scum it would have made more sense to come out and try to peg Joe than let Lefty die. You already think I defended him once, why the hell would I not step up to the plate and keep him alive later on?

And why exactly would Lefty be gunning for me if I was his teammate? It was a sure lynch if I'd been allowed to speak up, and between that and Cabots reveal it would have been a VERY bad way to keep his own team alive. And don't try to give me the crap about that being a tactic to throw the scum off of my trail, You're all smart enough to know that it wasn't a viable tactic in that situation. Except for maybe Soprano, maybe if he started thinking with the head God graced with a brain.

So for a scum player I'd have made some seriously stupid and rookie mistakes in this game, and I'm better than that. I am not scum.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Ah... timing's everything.

I think Carlito's our best bet today, too. I think he could be either scum or cult, which is more than I can say for just about anyone else. I was just holding off to see if anyone was going to bring up anyone else.

That is our worst bet. I can't really say how I know this at risk of being modkilled but I know that Carlito is innocent. If we kill him today the town will lose. If there are any other townies out there don't vote for him.

[Tony Soprano]

That is our worst bet. I can't really say how I know this at risk of being modkilled but I know that Carlito is innocent. If we kill him today the town will lose. If there are any other townies out there don't vote for him.

This is gonna be a fun day. Frankly, I feel like the town is in such bad shape, that we're in a bit of a freeroll situation.

[Marcellus Wallace]

This is gonna be a fun day. Frankly, I feel like the town is in such bad shape, that we're in a bit of a freeroll situation.

Heres the deal if you kill Carlito I will die too.

[Tony Soprano]

Ugh. Why did I collect Lefty's posts? Because I had thought it was Tony Montana who had fingered him, and I thought I'd be nice and collect them all into a single spot so people didn't have to read through the entire damned game to case him.

I then read through his posts to see what I could get out of it, and the only thing that I saw was the thing at the beginning of Day one, which I thought could very well be testing the waters and getting reactions because I have seen that happen several times in the past.

The two day silencing did not help me. It was either be lynched two days ago or be lynched today, and all it did was give you something else to debate, was I actually silenced (yes I was) or am I bull****ting you (no I'm not)? I didn't exactly have the opportunity to participate in this game during those two days, and if I had been scum it would have made more sense to come out and try to peg Joe than let Lefty die. You already think I defended him once, why the hell would I not step up to the plate and keep him alive later on?

And why exactly would Lefty be gunning for me if I was his teammate? It was a sure lynch if I'd been allowed to speak up, and between that and Cabots reveal it would have been a VERY bad way to keep his own team alive. And don't try to give me the crap about that being a tactic to throw the scum off of my trail, You're all smart enough to know that it wasn't a viable tactic in that situation. Except for maybe Soprano, maybe if he started thinking with the head God graced with a brain.

So for a scum player I'd have made some seriously stupid and rookie mistakes in this game, and I'm better than that. I am not scum.

Man, I am gettin' the short bus treatment in this joint! I'm gonna unvote you just so I can vote for you again.

[Doggin94it]

Man, I am gettin' the short bus treatment in this joint! I'm gonna unvote you just so I can vote for you again.

- repped

[Vito Corleone]

That is our worst bet. I can't really say how I know this at risk of being modkilled but I know that Carlito is innocent. If we kill him today the town will lose. If there are any other townies out there don't vote for him.

Heres the deal if you kill Carlito I will die too.

I think you can go into a little more detail without being modkilled. Just don't do any direct quoting. I want to hear from Carlito on this, too. I'm witholding comment until then.

[Marcellus Wallace]

I think you can go into a little more detail without being modkilled. Just don't do any direct quoting. I want to hear from Carlito on this, too. I'm witholding comment until then.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lover

I didn't know who it was untill last night which is why I never tried to help Carlito before. Each night I submitted a name to Doggin to try to find my lover. Carlito could do the same and he finally found me last night.

[Vito Corleone]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lover

I didn't know who it was untill last night which is why I never tried to help Carlito before. Each night I submitted a name to Doggin to try to find my lover. Carlito could do the same and he finally found me last night.

This is tricky. Do you know Carlito's alignment?

The Siblings do not know each other's alignments (in this case they are often called Lovers).

In the above Variation, if the Lover is a member of the Mafia, they are commonly called a Treacherous Lover. Retrieved from "http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Siblings"

I understand the understand the desire for self preservation, but if Carlito's scum he needs to be taken out in order for the town to win.

[Marcellus Wallace]

This is tricky. Do you know Carlito's alignment?

The Siblings do not know each other's alignments (in this case they are often called Lovers).

In the above Variation, if the Lover is a member of the Mafia, they are commonly called a Treacherous Lover. Retrieved from "http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Siblings"

I understand the understand the desire for self preservation, but if Carlito's scum he needs to be taken out in order for the town to win.

He told me he protown. Thats all I have to go on. If he is scum which I doubt we need to hold off killing him. If we kill town of scum today theres a really good chance that its game over and the cult wins.

[Marcellus Wallace]

He told me he protown. Thats all I have to go on. If he is scum which I doubt we need to hold off killing him. If we kill town of scum today theres a really good chance that its game over and the cult wins.

I re-read the mod pm. He's definitely a townie.

[Vito Corleone]

He told me he protown. Thats all I have to go on. If he is scum which I doubt we need to hold off killing him. If we kill town of scum today theres a really good chance that its game over and the cult wins.

I re-read the mod pm. He's definitely a townie.

Alright. I've gotta say, I'm not excited about this role reveal. You guys could simply be scum partners for all the rest of us know. Even if you're telling the truth, Carlito could've been converted to cult at some point since the beginning of the game.

That said, I'm fine with going in another direction for now - we just need another direction now. I'm open to suggestions.

[Carlito Brigante]

Marcellus is correct about our role, previously we had a restriction on us not to even hint at the role, but that was before we found each other; the mod has since informed us that we can in fact reveal our roles since we're no longer looking for each other.

According to the Mod PM Marcellus is definitely pro-town, and he did ask me earlier if I was cult, so that leads me to believe he's not. Do keep in mind, neither of us had any reason to lie to each other, seeing as in order for one of us to live both of us have to, and at the time when we asked about it we had not had the restriction of revealing our role lifted yet.

I'm not cult, I've been in the hot seat for a very long time, so I would be a terrible person for the scum to pick up, and I think that Frank safely confirmed with his death that I wasn't cult before that.

[Tony Soprano]

- repped

Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut everyone in a while, am I right?

[Marcellus Wallace]

We have only had 2 successful lynches thus far, what else do you expect right now. As you said, I was part of one of the two. Considering the successful lynch of Montana ended abruptly with 2 non-town players, Lefty and Al, springing up out of nowhere and dropping the hammer late on a Friday night.

Odd that you are singling me out as if everyone here has successfully lynched several scum and cult.

I started the train on Sonny to see what would happen. We had ample time before the deadline, and he had not posted in over a week. I said I thought something was up with both of them and was willing to change my vote if needed. I did not force everyone to pile on Sonny, his own scummy behavior did that.

I was also the only person who wanted to hear your case on Frank (which you suddenly dropped) and challenge him about his ties to Carlito.

I do not see my lynching participation as scummy. What I will give you is what happened yesterday. I thought there was a good chance it was game over if the mafia shot a townie. I thought I should try something different. Of course I would be wary of me too for asking to be converted.

Fair enough. Im not singling you out, just pointing out something that stood out to me in your play.

Honestly, Im ****ing lost.

Marcellus is correct about our role, previously we had a restriction on us not to even hint at the role, but that was before we found each other; the mod has since informed us that we can in fact reveal our roles since we're no longer looking for each other.

According to the Mod PM Marcellus is definitely pro-town, and he did ask me earlier if I was cult, so that leads me to believe he's not. Do keep in mind, neither of us had any reason to lie to each other, seeing as in order for one of us to live both of us have to, and at the time when we asked about it we had not had the restriction of revealing our role lifted yet.

I'm not cult, I've been in the hot seat for a very long time, so I would be a terrible person for the scum to pick up, and I think that Frank safely confirmed with his death that I wasn't cult before that.

Heres the deal if you kill Carlito I will die too.

WoW. This game is making my frickin brain hurt and all that booze last night didnt help.

So here's what we got so far.

Virgil - Doc

Marcellus and Carlito - Butt Pirates

Tony S - ?

Fredo - ?

Ace - ?

Vito - ?

Jiffy Conway - roleless townie - for you guys ?

So we have to chose from the ? marks, obviously you guys shouldnt take my word for it and I welcome pressure, but you will find nothing. Its like Im the only one in the game left without a role.

I dont know what to do other then put pressure on someone that could be flying under the radar as scum or cult.

Unvote Carlito

Vote Ace

His random vote on Carlito with everything else happening was weird. And I just honestly dont think we have heard enough from him, so lets apply some pressure. That said, I got nothing else...this is a ****ed up game.

I mean so far, we have had 5 protownish role reveals...WTF?

[Marcellus Wallace]

FTR, I probably wont be very active at all this weekend.

[Fredo Corleone]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lover

I didn't know who it was untill last night which is why I never tried to help Carlito before. Each night I submitted a name to Doggin to try to find my lover. Carlito could do the same and he finally found me last night.

I guess once you go c0ck you never go back.

[Fredo Corleone]

Marcellus is correct about our role, previously we had a restriction on us not to even hint at the role, but that was before we found each other; the mod has since informed us that we can in fact reveal our roles since we're no longer looking for each other.

According to the Mod PM Marcellus is definitely pro-town, and he did ask me earlier if I was cult, so that leads me to believe he's not. Do keep in mind, neither of us had any reason to lie to each other, seeing as in order for one of us to live both of us have to, and at the time when we asked about it we had not had the restriction of revealing our role lifted yet.

I'm not cult, I've been in the hot seat for a very long time, so I would be a terrible person for the scum to pick up, and I think that Frank safely confirmed with his death that I wasn't cult before that.

So where you still silenced or where you just trying to weather the storm before you found your lover? This is very interesting and again a first time in game twist for me.

This is interresting because not only to we have to consider you guys are scum partners trying to pull a fast one. Possibly because of the possible number of Cultist you may be trying a last ditch effort to pull this one out. Or.. you may both be converted cultist. Yet with the possible lead you may have kinds risky. But then again, it's possible not all the nights your attempts worked. With all the claiming and surprises in this one, who knows what the hell happen at night? Or you may be boith telling the truth and may be close to all of the remaining townies in the game. For this to be true the cult definately had nights they couldn't add to their ranks.

To make a long story short this is going to take some careful consideration. Im kinda taken back with all this blatant man on man love. It's beutiful if thats your thing, but not ordinary.

[Carlito Brigante]

To answer your question Fredo, I really was silenced both nights.

[Tony Soprano]

Unvote

The town just about has to be at endgame, if we even have a shot at all. I need to pull a Costanza maybe, and start going against my impulses. I'ma take my sweet azz time here.

Carlito has been under fire for a long time. What about me, Jimmy, Vito, Fredo, Ace, etc.....one or two of us, especially the semi-quiet fuuckers, might be the way to go..

[Virgil Sollozzo]

So here's what we got so far.

Virgil - Doc

Marcellus and Carlito - Butt Pirates

Tony S - ?

Fredo - ?

Ace - ?

Vito - ?

Jiffy Conway - roleless townie - for you guys ?

The problem I have here if we believe Marcellus and Carlito are innocent...is two of the question-marked guys would have to be scum and two would be cult. Meaning the Cult Leader has only recruited twice. Possible but works too much in our favor for my liking. Three times counting you as one of the question-marked 5. Makes a bit more sense if they converted every other night.

I can believe Marcellus and Carlito are lovers but I have trouble buying that they are both innocent. Carlito's silencing has still gone unexplained so it is safe to assume if someone has the ability to silence players, he is not part of the town. It is possible they are cult teammates banking on us not wanting to risk two deaths at once.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Unvote

The town just about has to be at endgame, if we even have a shot at all. I need to pull a Costanza maybe, and start going against my impulses. I'ma take my sweet azz time here.

Carlito has been under fire for a long time. What about me, Jimmy, Vito, Fredo, Ace, etc.....one or two of us, especially the semi-quiet fuuckers, might be the way to go..

I agree it can only help us to look at everyone. I have voiced my suspicions of you in the past. Most of your early posts amounted to, "Go town ... this is an important decision, let's get it right." Since then you have stepped up your contributions but overall are doing a good job blending in without saying much.

Jimmy also has interested me before. Got a weird vibe from him early on, did not like him asking if I had a role during one of the first night phases. I thought it was weird he kept bringing up Frank's name at first but suddenly stopped mentioning him altogether. Even when I repeatedly asked to hear his case because Frank started looking scummy to me too.

Both Fredo and Ace have certainly stayed under the radar until now. Ace's vote on Carlito has been the only openly odd thing so far but it would be worth it to look back at some of their posts. I have also been meaning to do this with Vito.

[Ace Rothstein]

Unvote Carlito

Vote Ace

His random vote on Carlito with everything else happening was weird. And I just honestly dont think we have heard enough from him, so lets apply some pressure. That said, I got nothing else...this is a ****ed up game.

I mean so far, we have had 5 protownish role reveals...WTF?

My vote on Carlito can be explained simply enough. In the past 2 weeks I've worked 150+ hours, all overnight, and all days kinda rolled into one and I honestly forgot what day it was. When I voted for Carlito I thought we had 2 days to the deadline and not one, at the time I wasn't comfortable voting for Joe or Sonny and I wanted Carlito's reason for that Lefty post. About 2 hours later I came back and had 3 people telling me I was an idiot for voting like that with only 24 hours left so I had to get comfortable with one of the towns 2 choices.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

Rereading Ace's, Fredo's, and Vito's posts was a task. They talk about the same names that have been popular the whole game. Sonny, Carlito, Joe, Henry, Tony M., etc.

Considering what the numbers may be right now, I would not be surprised if any of them flipped scum/cult. Anything scummy about them seems weak at best right now...but I will share what I observed. Subtle differences I noticed between the three.

Many of Ace's posts were apologies for not posting frequently. In most cases he agreed with things already said because he was coming into the conversation late (intentionally or not). He was pushing hard for Sonny from early on for scummy comments and inactivity, yet when it came down to Sonny vs. Joe he threw out a vote for Carlito.

Fredo asks lots of questions, maybe an easy way to look like he is trying to be helpful. The only possibly scummy thing I noticed was the day after Frank was NKed he argued that we should still listen to Frank's ideas about game setup because Frank could have been converted and NKed the same night. This may be of interest in light of Frank's eager supporting that Carlito was silenced. That same day Fredo promised to come back that night with thoughts on Cabot but did not return until the next day.

Vito I have the most trouble with because the majority of his posts have been well thought out and have made sense to me. He led the lynch of Montana, possibly because a conversion of Montana failed, and strongly wanted us to lynch Joe instead of Sonny yesterday. I believe it was the day of the Montana lynch that he tried to deter me from talking about anyone new when I brought up Jimmy's name but agreed with me later when I said it was idiotic to lynch someone Friday night and waste a weekend of discussion.

As I said none of these make for strong cases at all but not every non-town guy will play overtly scummy, and it is good for us to look at all players at this point. I urge the other townie(s) - and scum - to do the same. Hopefully others will pick up on things I did not.

[Vito Corleone]

I've thought about this whole lovers angle, and I've decided to believe it for now. In fact, I suspect that they aren't the only linked pair in the game. Reading the Mafia Wiki page, they make mention of a "traditional sibling role" of Cop and Thug. That's exactly what we lost on the first night! It's possible that Nicky didn't shoot at Michael at all, that instead the scum targeted one of them, and the other commited suicide.

Virgil's role reveal is more troubling to me. My biggest problem with it is that it simply wasn't a smart play from the standpoint of the doctor. It was late in the night phase that he made his "offer," with a lot of night actions probably already submitted. So it was unlikely to get his stated desired result, anyway. The cult leader certainly wasn't going to come out of hiding. The downside is that the scum now would know who the doctor is, and they have a clear field to shoot at every night from tonight forward. They haven't missed yet. Maybe tonight or the next, they would've gone after the doc and we would have gotten thru a night without losing anyone. That's now very unlikely to happen.

Even more troubling is that Virgil's play could be a very smart one - if he's cult. Especially if he knows that the doc has already been converted, guaranteeing no counter-claims. We saw that with the cop in the zombie game. In that scenario, we have cult claiming to be an important power role, so the town can't lynch him, while he's simultaneously telling the scum not to bother shooting at him because it'll just result in no kill for the night! It's a brilliant move for cult.

As a result, I'm extremely wary of what Virgil's selling right now. I'll get to that in my next post.

[Vito Corleone]

Rereading Ace's, Fredo's, and Vito's posts was a task. They talk about the same names that have been popular the whole game. Sonny, Carlito, Joe, Henry, Tony M., etc.

Considering what the numbers may be right now, I would not be surprised if any of them flipped scum/cult. Anything scummy about them seems weak at best right now...but I will share what I observed. Subtle differences I noticed between the three.

Many of Ace's posts were apologies for not posting frequently. In most cases he agreed with things already said because he was coming into the conversation late (intentionally or not). He was pushing hard for Sonny from early on for scummy comments and inactivity, yet when it came down to Sonny vs. Joe he threw out a vote for Carlito.

Fredo asks lots of questions, maybe an easy way to look like he is trying to be helpful. The only possibly scummy thing I noticed was the day after Frank was NKed he argued that we should still listen to Frank's ideas about game setup because Frank could have been converted and NKed the same night. This may be of interest in light of Frank's eager supporting that Carlito was silenced. That same day Fredo promised to come back that night with thoughts on Cabot but did not return until the next day.

Vito I have the most trouble with because the majority of his posts have been well thought out and have made sense to me. He led the lynch of Montana, possibly because a conversion of Montana failed, and strongly wanted us to lynch Joe instead of Sonny yesterday. I believe it was the day of the Montana lynch that he tried to deter me from talking about anyone new when I brought up Jimmy's name but agreed with me later when I said it was idiotic to lynch someone Friday night and waste a weekend of discussion.

As I said none of these make for strong cases at all but not every non-town guy will play overtly scummy, and it is good for us to look at all players at this point. I urge the other townie(s) - and scum - to do the same. Hopefully others will pick up on things I did not.

I'm surprised I made it into this post, and really can't argue with it - primarily because there's no case at all being made against me here. I've been pro town since the opening bell of this game, and I'll discuss each of my posts and/or motives with anyone who's interested.

The other two guys are interesting, because I see them both as more likely to be scum than cult. Ace's last vote is the scummiest thing about him, that and his general inactivity. But I have a job with weird and long hours, too, so maybe I've just been more inclined to believe his apologies. Fredo's play has been more classic scum-like, with a lot of joking around, questions here and there, but little contribution overall. Using Frank as a model of what the CL looks for in a recruit, neither of these guys fit the bill.

It's the guys Virgil didn't mention that interest me more, namely Conway and Soprano. Simply looking at the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were cult. But Conway's early interest in Frank that suddenly and completely dropped off the night after Montana was lynched suggests to me that either he or Frank was converted that night, and that concluded his interest in Frank as "his favorite."

With the end of the game near, and the cult potentially up to three (or four?) members, I'm going to vote: Jimmy Conway.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

I've thought about this whole lovers angle, and I've decided to believe it for now. In fact, I suspect that they aren't the only linked pair in the game. Reading the Mafia Wiki page, they make mention of a "traditional sibling role" of Cop and Thug. That's exactly what we lost on the first night! It's possible that Nicky didn't shoot at Michael at all, that instead the scum targeted one of them, and the other commited suicide.

Virgil's role reveal is more troubling to me. My biggest problem with it is that it simply wasn't a smart play from the standpoint of the doctor. It was late in the night phase that he made his "offer," with a lot of night actions probably already submitted. So it was unlikely to get his stated desired result, anyway. The cult leader certainly wasn't going to come out of hiding. The downside is that the scum now would know who the doctor is, and they have a clear field to shoot at every night from tonight forward. They haven't missed yet. Maybe tonight or the next, they would've gone after the doc and we would have gotten thru a night without losing anyone. That's now very unlikely to happen.

Even more troubling is that Virgil's play could be a very smart one - if he's cult. Especially if he knows that the doc has already been converted, guaranteeing no counter-claims. We saw that with the cop in the zombie game. In that scenario, we have cult claiming to be an important power role, so the town can't lynch him, while he's simultaneously telling the scum not to bother shooting at him because it'll just result in no kill for the night! It's a brilliant move for cult.

As a result, I'm extremely wary of what Virgil's selling right now. I'll get to that in my next post.

Obviously if I thought we were guaranteed "tonight or the next" I would not have revealed.

As I have said before, where you are talking about my role coming in handy later on, I thought there was a good chance there might not be a later on. But I can keep answering the same questions for you if you wish.

I have acknowledged it may not have been the smartest move, depending on the numbers. With the information I had though, and preparing for the worst case scenario, I felt like I had to try something. I wish I had time to bring it up earlier but I did not think of it immediately and then had to wait for a chance to have internet access again. Which is why I asked people to hold off on submitting night actions until I got back. It was a risk I thought it was worth it to take though.

Interesting point on the Cop/Thug sibling link. Very dangerous to have two power roles linked like that though. Also seems odd to have two town-sided "lover" couples. Puts the town at a huge disadvantage if we wrongly lynch them.

Another question for anyone with a better idea of how these couples work...is it typical to start out not knowing who your partner is?

I'm surprised I made it into this post, and really can't argue with it - primarily because there's no case at all being made against me here. I've been pro town since the opening bell of this game, and I'll discuss each of my posts and/or motives with anyone who's interested.

The other two guys are interesting, because I see them both as more likely to be scum than cult. Ace's last vote is the scummiest thing about him, that and his general inactivity. But I have a job with weird and long hours, too, so maybe I've just been more inclined to believe his apologies. Fredo's play has been more classic scum-like, with a lot of joking around, questions here and there, but little contribution overall. Using Frank as a model of what the CL looks for in a recruit, neither of these guys fit the bill.

It's the guys Virgil didn't mention that interest me more, namely Conway and Soprano. Simply looking at the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were cult. But Conway's early interest in Frank that suddenly and completely dropped off the night after Montana was lynched suggests to me that either he or Frank was converted that night, and that concluded his interest in Frank as "his favorite."

With the end of the game near, and the cult potentially up to three (or four?) members, I'm going to vote: Jimmy Conway.

What surprises you about being included in the post. I would be more surprised to see guys overlooking anyone at this point.

You three really have faced no heat thus far, I reread your posts as I said I would and included anything remotely noticeable. Hopefully we can have a clearer idea of what everyone - not just the overtly shady guys - has been up to. I would lean more towards scum for Fredo too but not sure about Ace and not sure about you either.

I mentioned both Conway and Soprano in the previous post if you read that. Conway is one of my favorites for cult right now too.

Interesting here you think the end of the game is near but earlier you said my play was not smart because we miss out on having scum/cult target me tonight or the next night. As if we have multiple lynches and NKs to go.

[Doggin94it]

Vote Count

Ace Rothstein (1) - Jimmy Conway

Jimmy Conway (1) - Vito Corleone

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch

[Carlito Brigante]

In regards to lover type roles, they typically don't start out knowing each other.

[Vito Corleone]

Obviously if I thought we were guaranteed "tonight or the next" I would not have revealed.

As I have said before, where you are talking about my role coming in handy later on, I thought there was a good chance there might not be a later on. But I can keep answering the same questions for you if you wish.

I have acknowledged it may not have been the smartest move, depending on the numbers. With the information I had though, and preparing for the worst case scenario, I felt like I had to try something. I wish I had time to bring it up earlier but I did not think of it immediately and then had to wait for a chance to have internet access again. Which is why I asked people to hold off on submitting night actions until I got back. It was a risk I thought it was worth it to take though.

I don't need you to answer the same questions over and over again unless you want to, I'm just stating my observations. I wasn't suspicious of you at all except in a, "he's behaving so clean that maybe he's dirty," kinda way. Until that reveal. I didn't like it on it's surface, and then when I thought about it I realized that I really didn't like it because it could be a smart scum play.

But I didn't vote for you, and I'm not ready to, either. I'm just a little more wary than I was before. Should anything happen to me, I want that out there.

What surprises you about being included in the post. I would be more surprised to see guys overlooking anyone at this point.

You three really have faced no heat thus far, I reread your posts as I said I would and included anything remotely noticeable. Hopefully we can have a clearer idea of what everyone - not just the overtly shady guys - has been up to. I would lean more towards scum for Fredo too but not sure about Ace and not sure about you either.

I mentioned both Conway and Soprano in the previous post if you read that. Conway is one of my favorites for cult right now too.

Interesting here you think the end of the game is near but earlier you said my play was not smart because we miss out on having scum/cult target me tonight or the next night. As if we have multiple lynches and NKs to go.

I do think the end of the game could be near. I imagine the cult could be very excited right now. But the only way we're going to win the game is if we have a few more days/nights!

I didn't read your second post here as a continuation of the previous one. I guess I mistakenly thought you were making a case against the three of us (which I definitely didn't see on me!). But by going back and reading it again, I can see that we're in agreement on Conway and Soprano. That's good. That makes it easier for me to believe your reveal. The whole game is easier for me if I can trust you.

You've expressed concern that the cult is our biggest obstacle right now, and I agree. Marcellus has said the same. I hope they're not up to four members, but they could very well be up to three. I voted Jimmy because he's the one guy in the game with a tie to Frank.

The way I see it, we need to lynch cult today to keep the game alive.

[Tony Soprano]

I guess once you go c0ck you never go back.

'

LOL...that's even funnier when said in an Ahnold "Terminator" voice. I know, cuase I did it sitting here by myself...and lol'd....and then felt kinda weird.

I love that Doggin threw a couple of fruits in the game (no homo).

[Vito Corleone]

'

LOL...that's even funnier when said in an Ahnold "Terminator" voice. I know, cuase I did it sitting here by myself...and lol'd....and then felt kinda weird.

I love that Doggin threw a couple of fruits in the game (no homo).

I'm really hoping the lovers are Crusher and JiF. That would be too funny!

[Marcellus Wallace]

I agree it can only help us to look at everyone. I have voiced my suspicions of you in the past. Most of your early posts amounted to, "Go town ... this is an important decision, let's get it right." Since then you have stepped up your contributions but overall are doing a good job blending in without saying much.

Jimmy also has interested me before. Got a weird vibe from him early on, did not like him asking if I had a role during one of the first night phases. I thought it was weird he kept bringing up Frank's name at first but suddenly stopped mentioning him altogether. Even when I repeatedly asked to hear his case because Frank started looking scummy to me too.

Both Fredo and Ace have certainly stayed under the radar until now. Ace's vote on Carlito has been the only openly odd thing so far but it would be worth it to look back at some of their posts. I have also been meaning to do this with Vito.

The reason why I stopped my pursuit of Frank was because nobody was even acknowledging the case because EY was losing his mind. Not one preson quoted me, not one person mentioned it other than Joe that I recall. Maybe you made one single comment but to say that you "repeatedly" asked to hear my case is a lie. Nobody was listening to my case and I even talked about how weird that was multiple times. And my case against him was clear, what else did you need to know.

And once again, I never was trying to get you to come out and say you had a power role. That was not my intention. I was just going through posts doing what I normally do and it stood out to me. Ironically, I was right, if we are to believe your reveal is true and I am starting to think its not.

My vote on Carlito can be explained simply enough. In the past 2 weeks I've worked 150+ hours, all overnight, and all days kinda rolled into one and I honestly forgot what day it was. When I voted for Carlito I thought we had 2 days to the deadline and not one, at the time I wasn't comfortable voting for Joe or Sonny and I wanted Carlito's reason for that Lefty post. About 2 hours later I came back and had 3 people telling me I was an idiot for voting like that with only 24 hours left so I had to get comfortable with one of the towns 2 choices.

That just sounds like you arent reading up on posts and that would be easy to do if you were scum/cult that hasnt had any heat on him whatsoever and is the least active person in the game. I dont know what you are, you could be the Tooth Fairy with all the strange roles in this game, for all I know, but I think pressuring you is a good idea.

I've thought about this whole lovers angle, and I've decided to believe it for now. In fact, I suspect that they aren't the only linked pair in the game. Reading the Mafia Wiki page, they make mention of a "traditional sibling role" of Cop and Thug. That's exactly what we lost on the first night! It's possible that Nicky didn't shoot at Michael at all, that instead the scum targeted one of them, and the other commited suicide.

Virgil's role reveal is more troubling to me. My biggest problem with it is that it simply wasn't a smart play from the standpoint of the doctor. It was late in the night phase that he made his "offer," with a lot of night actions probably already submitted. So it was unlikely to get his stated desired result, anyway. The cult leader certainly wasn't going to come out of hiding. The downside is that the scum now would know who the doctor is, and they have a clear field to shoot at every night from tonight forward. They haven't missed yet. Maybe tonight or the next, they would've gone after the doc and we would have gotten thru a night without losing anyone. That's now very unlikely to happen.

Even more troubling is that Virgil's play could be a very smart one - if he's cult. Especially if he knows that the doc has already been converted, guaranteeing no counter-claims. We saw that with the cop in the zombie game. In that scenario, we have cult claiming to be an important power role, so the town can't lynch him, while he's simultaneously telling the scum not to bother shooting at him because it'll just result in no kill for the night! It's a brilliant move for cult.

As a result, I'm extremely wary of what Virgil's selling right now. I'll get to that in my next post.

What is he selling? And did you ever really get back to it.

And I find it strange that you have all this concern for Virgil but then you end up voting me. Especially considering that you were in agreement with me that Virgil ignoring Joe and going for Sonny was stupid. Also, take into account his reveal and the deal he tried to strike with the cult.

After thinking it over, Virgil is very dangerous right now. His role reveal is keeping all the pressure away. Is it possible Virgil is the CL, recruited the Doc and revealed because he knew there would be no counter claim?

Virgil could be taking us for a ride.

I'm surprised I made it into this post, and really can't argue with it - primarily because there's no case at all being made against me here. I've been pro town since the opening bell of this game, and I'll discuss each of my posts and/or motives with anyone who's interested.

The other two guys are interesting, because I see them both as more likely to be scum than cult. Ace's last vote is the scummiest thing about him, that and his general inactivity. But I have a job with weird and long hours, too, so maybe I've just been more inclined to believe his apologies. Fredo's play has been more classic scum-like, with a lot of joking around, questions here and there, but little contribution overall. Using Frank as a model of what the CL looks for in a recruit, neither of these guys fit the bill.

It's the guys Virgil didn't mention that interest me more, namely Conway and Soprano. Simply looking at the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were cult. But Conway's early interest in Frank that suddenly and completely dropped off the night after Montana was lynched suggests to me that either he or Frank was converted that night, and that concluded his interest in Frank as "his favorite."

With the end of the game near, and the cult potentially up to three (or four?) members, I'm going to vote: Jimmy Conway.

Simply looking at the numbers, you are likely scum or cult. With end game near and all the hoopla you made about Virgil you vote me. I just find it strange. I welcome pressure, you will find nothing here. My fear right now, is that you 2 could be potentially setting me up because I could be the easy lynch right now if this case you guys are building against me is believable to others.

Personally, I find it weak. My case against Frank was compleley ignored. And there is no basis because it is entirely likely that he was recruited and NK'ed on the same night which would mean nothing to me if I were cult. And the reason I think this is possible is because if I were the cult leader I would have told him to shut the **** up during the night phase. Thats what got him killed.

Also, my case against Frank was started during the whole EY fiasco. There was too much going on for me to keep going at him when we needed to make good decisions during an intense part of the game and focus on what was taking place.

I'm concerned that you are being pursuaded by Virgil who you find troubling and who has been wrong all game long.

[Fredo Corleone]

I re-read the mod pm. He's definitely a townie.

Marcellus is correct about our role, previously we had a restriction on us not to even hint at the role, but that was before we found each other; the mod has since informed us that we can in fact reveal our roles since we're no longer looking for each other.

According to the Mod PM Marcellus is definitely pro-town, and he did ask me earlier if I was cult, so that leads me to believe he's not. Do keep in mind, neither of us had any reason to lie to each other, seeing as in order for one of us to live both of us have to, and at the time when we asked about it we had not had the restriction of revealing our role lifted yet.

I'm not cult, I've been in the hot seat for a very long time, so I would be a terrible person for the scum to pick up, and I think that Frank safely confirmed with his death that I wasn't cult before that.

Cool then, we don't have to worry about the two of you anymore because you have both vouched for one another. Wheeeeeew. Two down now we can look at everyone else. Actually The Don, The Turk, and Jimmy seem to be working the other players so I'm going to look at this again. I was ok with it for about a second but some of what The Don and The Turk said made me start thinking about it.

I've thought about this whole lovers angle, and I've decided to believe it for now. In fact, I suspect that they aren't the only linked pair in the game. Reading the Mafia Wiki page, they make mention of a "traditional sibling role" of Cop and Thug. That's exactly what we lost on the first night! It's possible that Nicky didn't shoot at Michael at all, that instead the scum targeted one of them, and the other commited suicide.

I to believe that they may be lovers, especially with Marcellous' sodomaniacal history. Suspecting that they are not the only pair makes alot of sense especially with what we know about Doggins affection for odds and balance. "Sibling role"? This is interesting because the first night we lost a cop and a thug. My brother being wacked by Tommy the first night never sat well with me, I would have to accept the fact the Vig was trigger happy and accidently chose the finder to hit. Never bought this. I could see the mob hitting Devito and Michael going down with him. Makes as much sense as it being up to chance, if not more.

The problem I have here if we believe Marcellus and Carlito are innocent...is two of the question-marked guys would have to be scum and two would be cult. Meaning the Cult Leader has only recruited twice. Possible but works too much in our favor for my liking. Three times counting you as one of the question-marked 5. Makes a bit more sense if they converted every other night.

I can believe Marcellus and Carlito are lovers but I have trouble buying that they are both innocent. Carlito's silencing has still gone unexplained so it is safe to assume if someone has the ability to silence players, he is not part of the town. It is possible they are cult teammates banking on us not wanting to risk two deaths at once.

The number just don't add up. I think they are banking on us being afraid to pull the trigger and risk a double loss. I have to get to work but will talk more baout this later. I will also answer the questions asked of me whan I get back.

[Virgil Sollozzo]

The reason why I stopped my pursuit of Frank was because nobody was even acknowledging the case because EY was losing his mind. Not one preson quoted me, not one person mentioned it other than Joe that I recall. Maybe you made one single comment but to say that you "repeatedly" asked to hear my case is a lie. Nobody was listening to my case and I even talked about how weird that was multiple times. And my case against him was clear, what else did you need to know.

So when I said:

I am willing to look at your Frank case. He is playing too quietly for CTM if that is who he is.

Why post later without mentioning Frank's name. If I was asking to hear your case it must not have been so clear to me.

Then much later I bring it up again:

I still want to hear Jimmy's case on Frank. Why drop it completely and weigh in on only Lefty and Sonny.

You never talked about him again. Do not try to blame it on us for not "acknowledging" your case, quoting you, or mentioning it at all.