Will the Big Ten kill the Big East?

[uart]

Joe Pa wanted one more team, and now it sounds like he might get three.

If the Big Ten goes eastward and snags three Big East schools (possibly Rutgers, Pitt and Syracuse) is that the end of the Big East conference?

[PS17]

Don't want Syracuse going to the Big Eleven, thank you very much. That would **** up all the great rivalries in basketball. I could care less about SU football.

Shut up, Joe Pa.

[uart]

Don't want Syracuse going to the Big Eleven, thank you very much. That would **** up all the great rivalries in basketball. I could care less about SU football.

Shut up, Joe Pa.

You (and every other 'Cuse fan for that matter) may prefer to keep the Big East basketball conference intact. Hell, Jim Boeheim hates the idea of breaking things up.

BUT Football, whether it sucks or not, get only $7mil per year from the Big East. In the Big Ten, that number is going to be at or above $20mil. 'Cuse was ready to go to the ACC for less a few years back.

If the Big Ten makes an offer, I expect that 'Cuse will go (and I will resent you for it).

[gangreenman]

You (and every other 'Cuse fan for that matter) may prefer to keep the Big East basketball conference intact. Hell, Jim Boeheim hates the idea of breaking things up.

BUT Football, whether it sucks or not, get only $7mil per year from the Big East. In the Big Ten, that number is going to be at or above $20mil. 'Cuse was ready to go to the ACC for less a few years back.

If the Big Ten makes an offer, I expect that 'Cuse will go (and I will resent you for it).

Exactly... I read a report the other day that said Big East schools such as Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, Conn, West Va, and Lville stand to increase revenue between $15-20 Million by leaving the Big East to join the Big Ten. Then about 12-15 Million for leaving to join the SEC and about 10 million for leaving to join the ACC.

As much as it would suck breaking apart the great basketball history like that, there is no way a school would be able to turn down that kind of money, especially in an economy like this.

Im still hopeful the Big East can be proactive for once and at least make a move to limit the potential dismantling of the conference. I would love to see the conference split into two... A football league--Syracuse, West Va, Lville, Pitt, Uconn, Rutgers, USF, Cincinnati, (Memphis?) (UCF?) be one conference... Then have a small-school bball-only conference--Nova, GTown, SJU, SHU, Provy, DePaul, Marquette, and maybe some other small schools in the northeast...

That would be ideal IMO...Bigger schools can get their money, smaller schools can get more of a chance to compete in the new league. And Syracuse can still schedule a game/yr against Nova and Gtown sort of like how UK still plays LVille every year. Wouldn't be quite the same...But better than the alternative.

[uart]

Louisville won't be invited & UConn is very borderline.

If three football schools go though, the Big East will have a hard time finding matches to replace them, and the bball power-conference era is prob. over. In that scenario, I see some of the better remaining schools heading elsewhere.

If the SEC loses Arkansas to the Big XII (which could happen if the BXII loses Mizzou), then WVU to the SEC seems plausible. If the SEC decides to go to 14, they could also snatch up Louisville (assuming UK doesn't block it).

UConn could go to the ACC.

Cincy would be out in the cold, but could maybe get back into the MAC or some other mid-major.

The real question is: if the football schools disband the conference, what happens to Villanova, Georgetown and Marquette?

Villanova and Georgetown have football teams, so they conceivably have more options. Georgetown has a long way to go to get their football program up to the BCS level if they wanted to stay in a power conference. Villanova is a lot closer and could be ready for BCS-level football as soon as the mandatory waiting period is over (assuming the funding/stadium issues could be resolved).

Seton Hall/Providence/DePaul/St. Johns/Marquette would all seem to be headed on a crash course for a midmajor conference though.

[PFSIKH]

Exactly... I read a report the other day that said Big East schools such as Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, Conn, West Va, and Lville stand to increase revenue between $15-20 Million by leaving the Big East to join the Big Ten. Then about 12-15 Million for leaving to join the SEC and about 10 million for leaving to join the ACC.

As much as it would suck breaking apart the great basketball history like that, there is no way a school would be able to turn down that kind of money, especially in an economy like this.

Im still hopeful the Big East can be proactive for once and at least make a move to limit the potential dismantling of the conference. I would love to see the conference split into two... A football league--Syracuse, West Va, Lville, Pitt, Uconn, Rutgers, USF, Cincinnati, (Memphis?) (UCF?) be one conference... Then have a small-school bball-only conference--Nova, GTown, SJU, SHU, Provy, DePaul, Marquette, and maybe some other small schools in the northeast...

That would be ideal IMO...Bigger schools can get their money, smaller schools can get more of a chance to compete in the new league. And Syracuse can still schedule a game/yr against Nova and Gtown sort of like how UK still plays LVille every year. Wouldn't be quite the same...But better than the alternative.

And when presented with the same scenario 5 years ago.....15 or so years ago...and 25 or so years ago...they have always choosen BB over FB.

I remain skeptical if they would change this time. I could see the Big East going the way of the Southwest Conference. Going...going...gone.

Louisville won't be invited & UConn is very borderline.

If three football schools go though, the Big East will have a hard time finding matches to replace them, and the bball power-conference era is prob. over. In that scenario, I see some of the better remaining schools heading elsewhere.

If the SEC loses Arkansas to the Big XII (which could happen if the BXII loses Mizzou), then WVU to the SEC seems plausible. If the SEC decides to go to 14, they could also snatch up Louisville (assuming UK doesn't block it).

UConn could go to the ACC.

Cincy would be out in the cold, but could maybe get back into the MAC or some other mid-major.

The real question is: if the football schools disband the conference, what happens to Villanova, Georgetown and Marquette?

Villanova and Georgetown have football teams, so they conceivably have more options. Georgetown has a long way to go to get their football program up to the BCS level if they wanted to stay in a power conference. Villanova is a lot closer and could be ready for BCS-level football as soon as the mandatory waiting period is over (assuming the funding/stadium issues could be resolved).

Seton Hall/Providence/DePaul/St. Johns/Marquette would all seem to be headed on a crash course for a midmajor conference though.

Exactly.

However they divide things up, the ACC, SEC, Big XII and Big 10 are likely to grab the FB/BB schools and kill the Big East. With the added benefit of freeing up that TV money for themselves.

[gangreenman]

And when presented with the same scenario 5 years ago.....15 or so years ago...and 25 or so years ago...they have always choosen BB over FB.

I remain skeptical if they would change this time. I could see the Big East going the way of the Southwest Conference. Going...going...gone.

Exactly.

However they divide things up, the ACC, SEC, Big XII and Big 10 are likely to grab the FB/BB schools and kill the Big East. With the added benefit of freeing up that TV money for themselves.

Exactly. If the Big East cant pull it together (and I am still somewhat hopeful -- They did just hire Paul Tagilabue as a consultant, so we'll seee what he can pull off), I hope Syracuse is proactive in joining another conference. As much as I wouldnt like to see all the history we have in this conference broken up like that, I would HATE to see Syracuse become the next UNLV or, going back further, NYU... Two programs that used to have national prominence until the landscape started changing and teams gravitated toward the bigger, more powerful conferences...And both those schools did nothing, and eventually faded into irrelevance.

Hopefully Tagilabue can work some magic in convincing the football teams to stay--and maybe luring a few others, such as Memphis and UCF, into the mix.

I think in order for this to be accomplished, the Big East is going to have to do some restructurring... Kick out DePaul, St Johns, and Seton Hall. (Id say Provy as well, but considering the BE commisioner is a Provy grad--the chances of that happening are about zero). Put pressure on Nova to either set a timetable for becoming a 1A football school or also risk being booted...And maybe, just MAYBE, if we do all that right...We can start trying to lure a school like BC back into the Big East, where they belong.

I know Im being very hopeful here, but I really would like to see this conference survive...Which it will not do without some serious changes.

[uart]

I think in order for this to be accomplished, the Big East is going to have to do some restructurring... Kick out DePaul, St Johns, and Seton Hall. (Id say Provy as well, but considering the BE commisioner is a Provy grad--the chances of that happening are about zero). Put pressure on Nova to either set a timetable for becoming a 1A football school or also risk being booted...And maybe, just MAYBE, if we do all that right...We can start trying to lure a school like BC back into the Big East, where they belong.

I know Im being very hopeful here, but I really would like to see this conference survive...Which it will not do without some serious changes.

It's ridiculous, but Providence kind of runs the show in the Big East. Tranghese came up through the Providence athletics dept. as well.

You can't really kick out the charter members of the conference though, and I believe that St. Johns and Seton Hall are charter members.

As much as I want it to happen (and as much as I think it's a reasonable move), I just don't see Villanova moving to I-A football without some sort of a nudge. The administration isn't really that committed to the endeavor, and really only seems to field a football team out of fear that the alumni will protest again (the early 80s were a rough time for alumni relations).

If the Big East were to subsidize the transition, however, it would absolutely happen. Villanova has been one of the better FCS football programs for a few years now, and we could probably be ready for a BCS conference in a couple years. It would take a lot of nudging and convincing, however, and I'm 99% sure that if football wasn't likely to turn a profit, the University would absolutely refuse.

[Gainzo]

It's ridiculous, but Providence kind of runs the show in the Big East. Tranghese came up through the Providence athletics dept. as well.

You can't really kick out the charter members of the conference though, and I believe that St. Johns and Seton Hall are charter members.

As much as I want it to happen (and as much as I think it's a reasonable move), I just don't see Villanova moving to I-A football without some sort of a nudge. The administration isn't really that committed to the endeavor, and really only seems to field a football team out of fear that the alumni will protest again (the early 80s were a rough time for alumni relations).

If the Big East were to subsidize the transition, however, it would absolutely happen. Villanova has been one of the better FCS football programs for a few years now, and we could probably be ready for a BCS conference in a couple years. It would take a lot of nudging and convincing, however, and I'm 99% sure that if football wasn't likely to turn a profit, the University would absolutely refuse.

Villanova is a customer of mine and I have been on Campus a few times. There is no way the Administration would make the move to D1 football.

Where would they play? The Linc (30-40 minutes from Campus)?

Temple has pretty much proved the point that D1 Football doesn't work in Philly. Just like NYC and Boston.

Boston may have Boston College but they only have a 40,000 seat Stadium and no one gives a crap about them up here.

[gangreenman]

It's ridiculous, but Providence kind of runs the show in the Big East. Tranghese came up through the Providence athletics dept. as well.

You can't really kick out the charter members of the conference though, and I believe that St. Johns and Seton Hall are charter members.

As much as I want it to happen (and as much as I think it's a reasonable move), I just don't see Villanova moving to I-A football without some sort of a nudge. The administration isn't really that committed to the endeavor, and really only seems to field a football team out of fear that the alumni will protest again (the early 80s were a rough time for alumni relations).

If the Big East were to subsidize the transition, however, it would absolutely happen. Villanova has been one of the better FCS football programs for a few years now, and we could probably be ready for a BCS conference in a couple years. It would take a lot of nudging and convincing, however, and I'm 99% sure that if football wasn't likely to turn a profit, the University would absolutely refuse.

The mentality that we cant boot the dead-weight charter schools for the simple reason that they are charter schools is the reason this has even become an issue... Because, as of now, most of the Big East charter schools are also dead weight to the conference (small/now market, small/no fanbase, no football, and crappy basketball). Im thinking about Seton Hall, Providence, and DePaul. Seton Hall and Providence have literally given NOTHING to the conference since the 1980's, and all DePaul has going for it is the mid-west, Chicago market. Getting rid of those three schools would be the best first move the Big East could make. Next they need to get some new football programs in the conference... Most likely would be Memphis and/or UCF.

If we do all that... then the conference has some sort of leverage they can use against Nova. Obviously they don't want to be 1A...Sucks for them. Set a timetable to get something done or risk being booted from the conference. We just booted three smaller non-football schools and replaced them with two two-sport schools, both with big markets, and both probably better at BBall than any of the three we just booted were. Now Nova would also be more inclined to make the jump to 1A because of the potential money they could be raking in with the reshaped conference.

All that gives us leverage to use to lure a school like BC back, or maybe a Maryland, into the conference.

Thats what this conference needs that it hasnt had in quite some time...Leverage. The Big East has let big-market, big-money schools like VT, BC, Miami, and Notre Dame walk all over the Big East all in its attempt to keep the dead weight schools like Provy, SJU, SHU, and the like, content.

Backwards logic if you ask me...And if the conference wants to survive, it needs to change.

[uart]

Villanova is a customer of mine and I have been on Campus a few times. There is no way the Administration would make the move to D1 football.

Where would they play? The Linc (30-40 minutes from Campus)?

The distance for the Linc isn't an issue, we play basketball across the parking lot from there. Temple's lease with the Eagles means that Villanova would probably be looking at moving to the Soccer stadium in Chester, though. About the same distance away, but obviously a smaller facility.

Temple has pretty much proved the point that D1 Football doesn't work in Philly. Just like NYC and Boston.

BC has been playing football for a long time just outside Boston. Temple football is hardly a success, but they haven't called it quits yet. The higher revenue streams and attractiveness of football in a BCS conference should draw decent crowds, even in Philly. When Temple was in the Big East they played in a mostly-empty stadium, but still managed to break even.

Games like Villanova vs. BC, or a visit from Notre Dame or Penn State would fill any size stadium you could find in Philly.

People say that Philly is a pro-sports town, but the Big 5 games draw a crowd and Villanova averages a much higher attendance at the Wachovia Center than the Sixers do.

It's not impossible. You just need to be competitive and sell it to the city. I have no doubt that Villanova could fill that soccer stadium every weekend.

Boston may have Boston College but they only have a 40,000 seat Stadium and no one gives a crap about them up here.

They don't need the city of Boston to care, they just need the alumni to buy tickets. Bowl and TV money takes care of the rest.

[uart]

all DePaul has going for it is the mid-west, Chicago market.

Chicago is the third-largest city and TV market in the country. Don't think that doesn't bring anything to the table. It's also the largest catholic university in the USA based on enrollment. It'd be great if they could compete, but if the Big East were to pull a Big Ten and start their own cable channel, having DePaul to bring in the Chicago TVs is HUGE.

New York, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia. Those are your top-4 TV markets in the country. Note that three of them are Big East cities. Boston is 7th (we used to have that one), and D.C. is 9th.... If the Big East started an actual cable network, they could easily be in over 25 million homes on day one (and that's assuming that the draw of Notre Dame only brings in the TINY South Bend market...

Chicago has 3.5 million TV households.

Getting rid of those three schools would be the best first move the Big East could make.

I think I've actually made a pretty good argument that forming a cable channel is the first move the Big East should make...

Next they need to get some new football programs in the conference... Most likely would be Memphis and/or UCF.

Getting USF to sign off on UCF would be tough, but the other schools could ram it down their throats if it came down to it. I don't like adding ECU, however.

If we do all that... then the conference has some sort of leverage they can use against Nova.

If they form the cable network, they actually might not have to have Nova involved in football. Basketball could probably carry the network. More TVs will tune in to watch Villanova play Syracuse in basketball than football. That said, get more revenue into Villanova's pocket with a new TV channel and broadcast deal, and it will be a lot easier to get the pursestrings loosened up.

Obviously they don't want to be 1A...Sucks for them.

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Hesitant and unable to expand our stadium is more like it.

We just booted three smaller non-football schools and replaced them with two two-sport schools, both with big markets, and both probably better at BBall than any of the three we just booted were.

You better be prepared to offer Temple full membership in this scenario, or you lose the fourth-largest TV market outright if Villanova says no. Same thing with Georgetown -- and in all fairness, you'd have to demand that they bring their non-scholarship FCS football up in time as well.

Now Nova would also be more inclined to make the jump to 1A because of the potential money they could be raking in with the reshaped conference.

If the revenue is there, Villanova would be more likely to do it. We're not going to join the A10 to avoid football. Not when the basketball program makes more than the entire A10 TV contract every year, but they won't lose 10 million + per year to make $2 million in basketball.

All that gives us leverage to use to lure a school like BC back, or maybe a Maryland, into the conference.

Maryland isn't leaving the ACC without an OBSCENE pay day. BC would come back if you could get Notre Dame to play Big East football. You won't though. Villanova football and money comparable to the ACC might be enough to make it happen, however.

The Big East has let big-market, big-money schools like VT, BC, Miami, and Notre Dame walk all over the Big East all in its attempt to keep the dead weight schools like Provy, SJU, SHU, and the like, content.

The Big East was founded as a basketball conference. They have been trying not to lose that identity. They started sponsoring football in order to keep the schools together for basketball. Football has always been the "other" sport in the Big East.

Also: VaTech is NOT a big market school. The ACC only took them in because the Governor of Virginia got involved.