Remember when BIGGG MACCC tried to get Semian?

[bla bla bla]

13 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Remember he tried trading for Cousins 

Hey we only argue negatives here. Get you Pro Macc propaganda out of here!

[CrazyCarl40]

40 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Remember he tried trading for Cousins 

Tried and failed. Why do we care about failed overtures?

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Trade: Fitz for a 6th round pick year 1 was a good deal no matter how you slice it especially given the production. Would you have preferred the Jets give up last years 6th overall and a 4th Rounder for Sam Bradford? 

Free Agency: Outside of Fitz last year which other starting QB would you have had us sign?

Draft: This is tough because we now have hindsight so it's easy to say Dak (Who McShay had ranked 12th in QBs) but Macc tried to move up for Mariota and Wentz, who would you have drafted with any of our picks given the value at the time?

As if those are the only decisions that were made in each category. The Fitz trade was fine. But the trades he didn’t make were failures. The McCown signing was far too much money for a guy no one else wanted and stunted the opportunity to see the young QBs in the name of “winning” games. The draft he has shown that he is fairly incapable of being able to properly assess what an actual QB looks like or what it would take to acquire one. 

[Jet Life]

4 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Tried and failed. Why do we care about failed overtures?

Im not even really a Macc guy but this thread is created off a failed trade

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Tried and failed. Why do we care about failed overtures?

As if those are the only decisions that were made in each category. The Fitz trade was fine. But the trades he didn’t make were failures. The McCown signing was far too much money for a guy no one else wanted and stunted the opportunity to see the young QBs in the name of “winning” games. The draft he has shown that he is fairly incapable of being able to properly assess what an actual QB looks like or what it would take to acquire one. 

So enlighten me on what you would have done differently.

We are only paying McCown for each game he plays, if Hack or Petty showed any type of comparable ability they'd be starting so I'm not sure how that was a bad deal. It's also naive to think that McCown hasn't provided us the opportunity to run a competent offense and actually get a handle on other players on the roster. Macc trying to get a trade up for Mariota and Wentz means he's bad at evaluating talent? Both QBs look to be franchise QBs but what do I know.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

We kill Macc for taking Hack, but he has taken Osweiller in the 2nd and Lynch in the 1st. He also has hung on to Trevoer Semien for 2 years as his starter heading into the season. How would you rank his abilities to draft a franchise QB? 

Granted, he did a great job finding that Peyton Manning kid that no one ever heard about before the Broncos got him....

We kill Macc because his team is 19-23 since he arrived, with no playoff appearances and no impact players at premium positions.

Since Elway became the Broncos GM and VP of football operations in 2011, the team has gone 70-35, with 5 playoff appearances, 2 AFC titles, and 1 Super Bowl title.

Even if Elway and Macc are equals with the QB position, they couldn't be more different in every other facet of their jobs.  

That's why Elway gets some rope and the benefit of the doubt, and Macc does not.  Stop acting like the failures of other front offices somehow makes Macc good at his job.  He sucks.  

[CrazyCarl40]

29 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

So enlighten me on what you would have done differently.

We are only paying McCown for each game he plays, if Hack or Petty showed any type of comparable ability they'd be starting so I'm not sure how that was a bad deal. It's also naive to think that McCown hasn't provided us the opportunity to run a competent offense and actually get a handle on other players on the roster. Macc trying to get a trade up for Mariota and Wentz means he's bad at evaluating talent? Both QBs look to be franchise QBs but what do I know.

I don’t have to enlighten anything for you. I’m not the GM of the Jets. If Macc identified Mariota or Wentz as a franchise changing QB and couldn’t move up to get them or was unwilling to, then he went and took Petty and Hack instead thinking that they’d be serviceable, then yes. He failed. 

[bla bla bla]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

We kill Macc because his team is 19-23 since he arrived, with no playoff appearances and no impact players at premium positions.

Since Elway became the Broncos GM and VP of football operations in 2011, the team has gone 70-35, with 5 playoff appearances, 2 AFC titles, and 1 Super Bowl title.

Even if Elway and Macc are equals with the QB position, they couldn't be more different in every other facet of their jobs.  

That's why Elway gets some rope and the benefit of the doubt, and Macc does not.  Stop acting like the failures of other front offices somehow makes Macc good at his job.  He sucks.  

Being able to sign one of the best QBs of all time in FA will certainly help his cause. He also took over with Demaryius Thomas and the 2nd overall pick in the cupboard. 

Since losing Manning, Elway has been 12-13. It's almost like a franchise QB makes all the difference.

[#27TheDominator]

6 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

Is drafting Hack 51st overall worse than drafting E J Manual 16th overall?  Will you whiners never stop.  It is what it is.  Mac is staying so get over yourselves and try to make constructive posts for a change.    

EJ Manuel started ten games as a rookie.  Hackenberg has been active twice.  His next snap will be his first.  Assuming he has a first. 

You people want to bash Elway?  I'm not a huge fan of his GM work, but he has drafted Siemian, Lynch and Osweiler, plus brought in Manning.  He brought in Sanchez and brought back Osweiler while not overpaying.  When these guys don't work out, he has had the balls to cut them loose or let them walk.  OTOH, we are hanging on the thread of a hope that a player will suddenly "get it" three years down the line and five years since anybody had anything good to say about him. Bad but trying beats bad every time. 

[bla bla bla]

5 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I don’t have to enlighten anything for you. I’m not the GM of the Jets. If Macc identified Mariota or Wentz as a franchise changing QB and couldn’t move up to get them or was unwilling to, then he went and took Petty and Hack instead thinking that they’d be serviceable, then yes. He failed. 

So you blame Macc for not being able to "properly assess" QB talent yet I give you 2 examples of players he tried to move up to #2 to get and you say that doesn't count? and then when I ask what you'd have done differently you don't have an answer. I'm not the Jets GM either but I can talk about what I would or would not have done given the available information but hey this is a forum where discussion is supposed to happen so why bother attempting to do that?

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Being able to sign one of the best QBs of all time in FA will certainly help his cause. He also took over with Demaryius Thomas and the 2nd overall pick in the cupboard. 

Since losing Manning, Elway has been 12-13. It's almost like a franchise QB makes all the difference.

You are willing to just throw out Osweiler going 5-2 during the super bowl run?  

43 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Im not even really a Macc guy but this thread is created off a failed trade

That's true.  This is not a sign of what is wrong with Maccagnan, but...

1 hour ago, Jet Life said:

Remember he tried trading for Cousins 

it is a reasonable counter to people wanting to give him credit for trying to trade for Cousins or to trade up for Wentz

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Being able to sign one of the best QBs of all time in FA will certainly help his cause. He also took over with Demaryius Thomas and the 2nd overall pick in the cupboard. 

Since losing Manning, Elway has been 12-13. It's almost like a franchise QB makes all the difference.

He also quickly moved on from Tebow despite making the playoffs with him the year before.  

And again, 12-13 from a GM that's built a Super Bowl roster >>>> A guy who is 19-23 and shown no ability to build a roster properly at all.

The Broncos will likely move on quickly from the QB's that aren't working, and will look to draft a QB out of this year's class.  And Elway deserves that chance, because he's more than earned the benefit of the doubt.  

[bla bla bla]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

EJ Manuel started ten games as a rookie.  Hackenberg has been active twice.  His next snap will be his first.  Assuming he has a first. 

You people want to bash Elway?  I'm not a huge fan of his GM work, but he has drafted Siemian, Lynch and Osweiler, plus brought in Manning.  He brought in Sanchez and brought back Osweiler while not overpaying.  When these guys don't work out, he has had the balls to cut them loose or let them walk.  OTOH, we are hanging on the thread of a hope that a player will suddenly "get it" three years down the line and five years since anybody had anything good to say about him. Bad but trying beats bad every time. 

One could argue that if we evaluate him after 2 off seasons and determine he's a bust that it would be a good move forgetting about him. Would be a bigger waste to play him and waste the development of other players if you already think he's a lost cause. I don't think there is a correlation between the amount of starts vs if they were or weren't busts. You either made the right pick or you didn't; EJ and Hack appear to both be bad picks the difference being that one was a 1st round pick and the other is a 2nd round pick.

[Paradis]

Remember when the jets traded for McCariens? Remember when we drafted Hackenberg? Remember when we passed on Sapp?

WTF is the point this, OP?

 

**edit, nvm I came out of my idiot bunker to realize this is another slam Macc thread...  which he deserves

[bla bla bla]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He also quickly moved on from Tebow despite making the playoffs with him the year before.  

And again, 12-13 from a GM that's built a Super Bowl roster >>>> A guy who is 19-23 and shown no ability to build a roster properly at all.

The Broncos will likely move on quickly from the QB's that aren't working, and will look to draft a QB out of this year's class.  And Elway deserves that chance, because he's more than earned the benefit of the doubt.  

Elway signed a FA all pro QB of course he's going to have the advantage haha that's a silly argument. So if the Broncos move on from a 1st round bust and the Jets move on from a 2nd round bust, the Broncos made the smarter decision? I have no problem giving Elway the benefit of the doubt but Macc hasn't had the opportunity to plug and play a FA all pro QB so I'm not sure that should be held against him.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

One could argue that if we evaluate him after 2 off seasons and determine he's a bust that it would be a good move forgetting about him. Would be a bigger waste to play him and waste the development of other players if you already think he's a lost cause. I don't think there is a correlation between the amount of starts vs if they were or weren't busts. You either made the right pick or you didn't; EJ and Hack appear to both be bad picks the difference being that one was a 1st round pick and the other is a 2nd round pick.

Manuel at least had some talent.  Hack couldn't complete 60 % of passes against Indiana.  No QB in the history of the NFL ever had completion % numbers in college as bad as Hack's were and had success.  Not one.  By drafting Hack, Macc was hoping Hack would accomplish the impossible.  

Not the same situation at all.  And again, using the failures of other GM's to prop Macc up is not smart.  Remember, the guy that drafted EJ Manuel for Buffalo is gone now.  Because that's what happens when you don't have success AND make stupid picks at QB:  You get fired.  Macc is headed towards the same direction.  

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

One could argue that if we evaluate him after 2 off seasons and determine he's a bust that it would be a good move forgetting about him. Would be a bigger waste to play him and waste the development of other players if you already think he's a lost cause. I don't think there is a correlation between the amount of starts vs if they were or weren't busts. You either made the right pick or you didn't; EJ and Hack appear to both be bad picks the difference being that one was a 1st round pick and the other is a 2nd round pick.

I could not disagree more that Manuel is somehow worse because he was a first.  Hackenberg has not even dressed.  He was so bad that they did not move on from Fitzpatrick, Smith or Petty.  Carrying all those guys cost them a roster spot and the guy has not rated a snap despite all three (3!) guys in front of him being injured. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

Elway signed a FA all pro QB of course he's going to have the advantage haha that's a silly argument. So if the Broncos move on from a 1st round bust and the Jets move on from a 2nd round bust, the Broncos made the smarter decision? I have no problem giving Elway the benefit of the doubt but Macc hasn't had the opportunity to plug and play a FA all pro QB so I'm not sure that should be held against him.

As much as you want to rip on the QB's he's drafted, Semian was a 7th rounder, and has actually had some decent moments.  Osweiler had his moments in Denver as well, but Elway smartly didn't hand him a giant contract.  Given that Macc handed Fitzpatrick an extension, I'd bet in the same shoes, he'd have paid Osweiler.  

Elway is picking and choosing his spots to go after a QB and taking calculated risks.  Macc has been taking ill-advised risks and doubling down on them.  

[bla bla bla]

10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You are willing to just throw out Osweiler going 5-2 during the super bowl run?  

okay forgive me 17-15 looks much better. We should probably mention that he offered Osweiler a massive deal only to be beat out by the Texans. Maybe I'm wrong but Osweiler + Siemian + Lynch is just as bad as Petty + Hack except Denver spent a 1st a 2nd and a 7th rather than a 2nd and a 4th.

[bla bla bla]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Manuel at least had some talent.  Hack couldn't complete 60 % of passes against Indiana.  No QB in the history of the NFL ever had completion % numbers in college as bad as Hack's were and had success.  Not one.  By drafting Hack, Macc was hoping Hack would accomplish the impossible.  

Not the same situation at all.  And again, using the failures of other GM's to prop Macc up is not smart.  Remember, the guy that drafted EJ Manuel for Buffalo is gone now.  Because that's what happens when you don't have success AND make stupid picks at QB:  You get fired.  Macc is headed towards the same direction.  

So selecting a 2nd round QB who failed is worse than selecting a 1st round QB who failed. Got it. You can hate the selection all you want but wasting a 1st IMO is worse than wasting a 2nd. I'm also not propping up Macc based on buffalo's pick, I'm merely comparing the two in response to another post. 

[bla bla bla]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I could not disagree more that Manuel is somehow worse because he was a first.  Hackenberg has not even dressed.  He was so bad that they did not move on from Fitzpatrick, Smith or Petty.  Carrying all those guys cost them a roster spot and the guy has not rated a snap despite all three (3!) guys in front of him being injured. 

Still lost here, what is the difference between a failed 1st and a failed 2nd round pick? You can hate the selection all you want but a failed pick is a failed pick.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, bla bla bla said:

Still lost here, what is the difference between a failed 1st and a failed 2nd round pick? You can hate the selection all you want but a failed pick is a failed pick.

Agree to disagree.  IMO if somebody burned a pick on my in the 7th that is worse than a guy who had talent but couldn't cut it in the first.  So far Hackenberg and I have identical NFL stat lines. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

So selecting a 2nd round QB who failed is worse than selecting a 1st round QB who failed. Got it. You can hate the selection all you want but wasting a 1st IMO is worse than wasting a 2nd. I'm also not propping up Macc based on buffalo's pick, I'm merely comparing the two in response to another post. 

Yes, because there are different levels of failure.  Manuel at least had a chance at working out.  Hack had no chance.  

Geno Smith was a far better pick than Christian Hackenberg, for instance.  Geno at least had a very strong TD/INT ratio his Senior season.  

GM's are supposed to assess risk properly when making selections.  Lot's of picks fail.  But at least if the logic is strong behind a pick, it can give you confidence that they'll get it right the next time.

Macc's picks have inspired zero confidence.  

[bla bla bla]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Agree to disagree.  IMO if somebody burned a pick on my in the 7th that is worse than a guy who had talent but couldn't cut it in the first.  So far Hackenberg and I have identical NFL stat lines. 

You're right if you are arguing the pick at time of selection. I think your wrong based on the end result. 2 different arguments.

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

okay forgive me 17-15 looks much better. We should probably mention that he offered Osweiler a massive deal only to be beat out by the Texans. Maybe I'm wrong but Osweiler + Siemian + Lynch is just as bad as Petty + Hack except Denver spent a 1st a 2nd and a 7th rather than a 2nd and a 4th.

He actually low-balled Oswelier with his offer.  Osweiler balked at it and got a much bigger deal with Houston.  

Lots of people around here called Elway idiots for that move.  Now he has Osweiler back on a cheap deal after failures at 2 stops.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

You're right if you are arguing the pick at time of selection. I think your wrong based on the end result. 2 different arguments.

Thought process matters when it comes to a GM.  If you're going to run a football team, you have to know your picks aren't all going to work out.  But you have to take EDUCATED risks sometimes, and over time, build a roster on the "hits".  

Macc has made 2 kinds of picks here:  "Safe" selections, and UNEDUCATED risks.  That doesn't build a roster.  And here we are 3 years into his tenure, with one of the worst rosters in football.  

[bla bla bla]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, because there are different levels of failure.  Manuel at least had a chance at working out.  Hack had no chance.  

Geno Smith was a far better pick than Christian Hackenberg, for instance.  Geno at least had a very strong TD/INT ratio his Senior season.  

GM's are supposed to assess risk properly when making selections.  Lot's of picks fail.  But at least if the logic is strong behind a pick, it can give you confidence that they'll get it right the next time.

Macc's picks have inspired zero confidence.  

He rolled the dice on a QB most considered a potential #1 pick after his freshman year. The staff changed and so did the system when his stats took a hit. He was a bad pick but a gamble in the 2nd round isn't outrageous given our lovely history of 2nd round picks. I merely argue that wasting a 1st vs wasting a 2nd round pick is worse and you'd think I knelt for the anthem.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

He rolled the dice on a QB most considered a potential #1 pick after his freshman year.  He rolled the dice on a QB most considered a potential #1 pick after his freshman year. The staff changed and so did the system when his stats took a hit. 

 

"A hit" is putting it extremely lightly.  A catastrophic fall, is more like it.  

[bla bla bla]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

What happened after his freshman year?

He played bad, I think there was more to my comment. I find it funny that didn't make it into your response.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, bla bla bla said:

He played bad, I think there was more to my comment. I find it funny that didn't make it into your response.

lol, OK Mr respond 5 seconds later.

 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

"A hit" is putting it extremely lightly.  A catastrophic fall, is more like it.  

 

[T0mShane]

I’d like to goof on Maccagnan for pursuing Siemian, but Macc has been rumored to be interested in 100 different QBs since he’s been here and has ended up with Fitzpatrick and McCown. We can point and laugh at him for wanting a JAG like Siemian, but the more concerning thing is that can’t negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag.

[bla bla bla]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

lol, OK Mr respond 5 seconds later.

 

haha says the guy who responds equally as fast. 

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

"A hit" is putting it extremely lightly.  A catastrophic fall, is more like it.  

And he was still considered to be a 2nd to 3rd round pick prior to us selecting him. He was a bad pick I'm not arguing that. I'm saying wasting a 1st vs wasting a 2nd which is worse? You seem to believe wasting a 2nd round pick is the worse decision even though there was a thought process with the pick. Rolling the dice in the 2nd round for a QB you believe to have been a victim of a scheme change who was once considered a potential top pick is not egregious in my book.

[#27TheDominator]

49 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

He rolled the dice on a QB most considered a potential #1 pick after his freshman year. The staff changed and so did the system when his stats took a hit. He was a bad pick but a gamble in the 2nd round isn't outrageous given our lovely history of 2nd round picks. I merely argue that wasting a 1st vs wasting a 2nd round pick is worse and you'd think I knelt for the anthem.

The issues I have with this are:

1. I don't think that he played so well as a freshman.  He played well for a freshman.  Compare his numbers as a freshman to Trubisky and Darnold's seasons in 2016.  58.9%, 2955, 20/10, 7.5 ypa vs. 68%, 3748, 30/6, 8.4ypa and 67.2%, 3086, 31/9, 8.4 ypa.  Those are the kind of one year numbers that throw you into the top of the draft on one season, not the crap that Hackenberg put up.  Without improvement as a sophomore and junior his numbers are nothing impressive.  Hell, even Sanchez went 65.8%, 3208, 34/10 and 8.8ypa. 

2. If you gamble and lose that is cool, but we still seem to been trying to forcefeed this stiff into the lineup.  For quite some time, it has been pretty obvious the pick was a waste, but we did nothing this offseason but sign McCown. 

[CrazyCarl40]

51 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

So you blame Macc for not being able to "properly assess" QB talent yet I give you 2 examples of players he tried to move up to #2 to get and you say that doesn't count? and then when I ask what you'd have done differently you don't have an answer. I'm not the Jets GM either but I can talk about what I would or would not have done given the available information but hey this is a forum where discussion is supposed to happen so why bother attempting to do that?

Trying is not doing. If Macc thought he could move up to acquire a franchise QB and failed to do so, then he failed. Since you are dying and fawning for what I would have done, I guess I would have made the trade Macc couldn’t or didn’t and then the Jets would have a franchise QB. Duh. 

[bla bla bla]

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

The issues I have with this are:

1. I don't think that he played so well as a freshman.  He played well for a freshman.  Compare his numbers as a freshman to Trubisky and Darnold's seasons in 2016.  58.9%, 2955, 20/10, 7.5 ypa vs. 68%, 3748, 30/6, 8.4ypa and 67.2%, 3086, 31/9, 8.4 ypa.  Those are the kind of one year numbers that throw you into the top of the draft on one season, not the crap that Hackenberg put up.  Without improvement as a sophomore and junior his numbers are nothing impressive.  Hell, even Sanchez went 65.8%, 3208, 34/10 and 8.8ypa. 

2. If you gamble and lose that is cool, but we still seem to been trying to forcefeed this stiff into the lineup.  For quite some time, it has been pretty obvious the pick was a waste, but we did nothing this offseason but sign McCown. 

Fair, I would keep in mind that Penn State lost loads of scholarships while Hack was the QB due to Sandusky. Not going to make excuses for him because our pick hasn't turned out the way we had hoped but I think there was thought put into that selection. Had it paid off it would go down as one of the best selections in our history. Much like Geno could have been had he been able to put it together. We whiffed, I can live with whiffing on that gamble.

To your second point, I think because we tried to give him every opportunity this past offseason/preseason and we haven't seen him play better than McCown is exactly the reason he hasn't seen the field yet. At this point his ceiling is backup QB or trade bait if it eventually clicks, and IMO I don't think we need to see what our future backup QB has. If they thought he was still the answer I think he'd get his shot to play, I just think they've made their decision as far as getting a QB in this upcoming offseason.