Remember when BIGGG MACCC tried to get Semian?

[Jetscode1]

Thread feels like Poseidon's Kiss.  

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3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Trying is not doing. If Macc thought he could move up to acquire a franchise QB and failed to do so, then he failed. Since you are dying and fawning for what I would have done, I guess I would have made the trade Macc couldn’t or didn’t and then the Jets would have a franchise QB. Duh. 

Failing to move up for a franchise QB is his fault but there is a risk/reward for all he knew Wentz could have flopped like Leaf, Jamarcus, Sanchez, Harrington, Leinart, Vince Young or any other potential top 10 pick. There are more flops than hits when it comes to trading up for QB's. Keep in mind that's with the hindsight of knowing what Wentz would become. I'm going to use an extreme case if we are going to use hindsight for what that trade could have turned into:

Jets: Wentz

Browns: Mo Wilkerson, (2016 1st) Dak Prescott, (2016 2nd) Jordan Howard, (2016 3rd) Tyreek Hill, (2017 1st) Marshawn Lattimore

Obviously this is a total extreme but knowing what a player would become would drastically change how you view a trade. My point is Macc has shown interest in the right QB's the price was too steep given the needs that this team had at the time of selection. Macc has tried to trade for Wentz, Mariota, & Cousins so while he didn't complete those trades for various reasons there is still the knowledge that he likes the right type of QB's. He whiffed on Hack, yes but Petty was never expected to be a starter. 

So to your original point, I think Macc can assess QB talent.

[CrazyCarl40]

20 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Failing to move up for a franchise QB is his fault but there is a risk/reward for all he knew Wentz could have flopped like Leaf, Jamarcus, Sanchez, Harrington, Leinart, Vince Young or any other potential top 10 pick. There are more flops than hits when it comes to trading up for QB's. Keep in mind that's with the hindsight of knowing what Wentz would become. I'm going to use an extreme case if we are going to use hindsight for what that trade could have turned into:

Jets: Wentz

Browns: Mo Wilkerson, (2016 1st) Dak Prescott, (2016 2nd) Jordan Howard, (2016 3rd) Tyreek Hill, (2017 1st) Marshawn Lattimore

Obviously this is a total extreme but knowing what a player would become would drastically change how you view a trade. My point is Macc has shown interest in the right QB's the price was too steep given the needs that this team had at the time of selection. Macc has tried to trade for Wentz, Mariota, & Cousins so while he didn't complete those trades for various reasons there is still the knowledge that he likes the right type of QB's. He whiffed on Hack, yes but Petty was never expected to be a starter. 

So to your original point, I think Macc can assess QB talent.

There is no price too steep for a franchise QB. The rest of your post is just noise.

[Integrity28]

4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I’d like to goof on Maccagnan for pursuing Siemian, but Macc has been rumored to be interested in 100 different QBs since he’s been here and has ended up with Fitzpatrick and McCown. We can point and laugh at him for wanting a JAG like Siemian, but the more concerning thing is that can’t negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag.

I thought this was implicit in my carefully worded thread title.

[Integrity28]

36 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

So to your original point, I think Macc can assess QB talent.

Cool. So, what you're saying is that he's purposefully selecting bad ones. That makes me feel better about it.

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41 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Cool. So, what you're saying is that he's purposefully selecting bad ones. That makes me feel better about it.

I think Hack was a bad pick but I understand the gamble. I don't think Dak was in play at that point in the draft so I'm not sure what other direction you'd have him go for QB. The Petty pick was in the 4th round, I'm not sure anyone thought he'd be more than a back up QB.

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1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

There is no price too steep for a franchise QB. The rest of your post is just noise.

I agree but Wentz was not considered a lock to be a franchise QB. Knowing what we know now yes you make that trade all day. However if all teams knew what we know now that price would be far higher.

[Philc1]

5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, because there are different levels of failure.  Manuel at least had a chance at working out.  Hack had no chance.  

Geno Smith was a far better pick than Christian Hackenberg, for instance.  Geno at least had a very strong TD/INT ratio his Senior season.  

GM's are supposed to assess risk properly when making selections.  Lot's of picks fail.  But at least if the logic is strong behind a pick, it can give you confidence that they'll get it right the next time.

Macc's picks have inspired zero confidence.  

EJ Manuel >>>>>>> Hack

 

And I think EJ Manuel is a JAG

[Integrity28]

3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I think Hack was a bad pick but I understand the gamble. I don't think Dak was in play at that point in the draft so I'm not sure what other direction you'd have him go for QB. The Petty pick was in the 4th round, I'm not sure anyone thought he'd be more than a back up QB.

I would have liked it if he got us a good QB. I'm not saying it should have happened with the exact picks where he drafted bad QBs in the past. I'm saying it should have happened INSTEAD of those picks. Your response applies a naive level of logic by assuming those two spots in those two respective drafts are the only places where a QB could have been found.

[Integrity28]

Just now, Philc1 said:

EJ Manuel >>>>>>> Hack

 

And I think EJ Manuel is a JAG

JAGs contribute. EJ Manuel is trash. Just as bad as Hack. Completely useless on a football roster.

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

JAGs contribute. EJ Manuel is trash. Just as bad as Hack. Completely useless on a football roster.

Eh no. Stating Manuel is as bad as Hack is simply factually inaccurate.  One is bad the other is once a generation horrible. That’s like saying Transformers 5 is as bad a movie as The Room

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3 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I would have liked it if he got us a good QB. I'm not saying it should have happened with the exact picks where he drafted bad QBs in the past. I'm saying it should have happened INSTEAD of those picks. Your response applies a naive level of logic by assuming those two spots in those two respective drafts are the only places where a QB could have been found.

I agree, in the last 3 drafts, knowing what we knew at the time of selection, what would you have done differently? Is there a FA or a trade left on the table that you believe would have been a franchise QB at this point? 

[Integrity28]

Just now, Philc1 said:

Eh no. Stating Manuel is as bad as Hack is simply factually inaccurate.  That’s like saying Transformers 5 is as bad a movie as The Room

Actually, it's simply factually an opinion.

[Philc1]

3 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I would have liked it if he got us a good QB. I'm not saying it should have happened with the exact picks where he drafted bad QBs in the past. I'm saying it should have happened INSTEAD of those picks. Your response applies a naive level of logic by assuming those two spots in those two respective drafts are the only places where a QB could have been found.

Jets are never getting a good qb as long as Mac is the GM

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Actually, it's simply factually an opinion.

If the Raiders cut EJ Manuel he would get a backup job somewhere in the nfl

 

if the Jets cut Hack he’d be trying out for the Edmonton Eskimoes

[billo83]

8 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Well Mac was the fool to take him in the 2nd round and overdraft him, this after his big guru O'Brien traded up in the 2nd round in front of the jets ...... and took a center. 

The 'emotional' people who blasted the pick were 100% correct it seems and the supporters of the pick were 100% wrong with this guy.  It's not just the fail, it is the degree of the fail.  This is not sanchez, or geno or clemens all of who had a kick at the can.  This guy is so atrocious he can't beat out Petty for 2nd string and after two years can't come close to beating out Josh friggin Mccown.

Worst pick ever...

Worst pick ever? Not even close. How about the Ghost at #6 and Dbust at #4 that cost an extra 1st rounder?

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2 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Eh no. Stating Manuel is as bad as Hack is simply factually inaccurate.  One is bad the other is once a generation horrible. That’s like saying Transformers 5 is as bad a movie as The Room

EJ > Hack

EJ definitely made more sense in the 1st than Hack in the 2nd but if you are considering which is worse, I'd rather flop on a 2nd round pick than a 1st round pick. 

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

EJ > Hack

EJ definitely made more sense in the 1st than Hack in the 2nd but if you are considering which is worse, I'd rather flop on a 2nd round pick than a 1st round pick. 

I think what makes the Hack pick look so bad is the rest of the 2015 and 2016 drafts sucked.  

[Integrity28]

1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

I agree in the last 3 drafts, knowing what we knew at the time of selection, what would you have done differently? Is there a FA or a trade left on the table that you believe would have been a franchise QB at this point? 

I would have gotten a QB. Why does it matter what I would have done? I'm not the GM. My expectation is that the GM gets us a QB. Not Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh McCown. 

I've long said draft a QB every year, even if you find one. They are the most valuable asset in the NFL and can be used as currency - which is what Belicheat seems to understand full well. 

For sport, I'll answer your question.

2017 - I advocated trading back 2-3 spots, even for less than value, then taking Watson or Mahomes. If we didn't do that, I wanted Webb or Peterman in later rounds.

2016 - I advocated trading away the whole draft to move up for Wentz, because I was skeptical of Mac's ability to find any players with those other picks, and thought if you can get the QB, then it's worth not getting a bunch of backup OL and S in later rounds. If we didn't do that, I wanted Prescott or Brissett late. I was really high on Prescott.

2015 - I liked Petty and Hundley, but the anger over winning meaningless Rex games and missing out on Mariota pissed me off. I was more in favor of trading for a backup from some other team. I truthfully cannot remember who.

I don't consider myself a draftnik, or think I have an eye for prospective talent, I'm just a guy that likes the game. That I can be this centered on guys that are viable but our GM is not... informs my opinion of him until further notice.

[Integrity28]

10 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Jets are never getting a good qb as long as Mac is the GM

lol, is this simply factually?

[Philc1]

Just now, Integrity28 said:

lol, is this simply factually?

Does Macc’s track record with evaluating qb’s make you think otherwise?

[Integrity28]

Just now, Philc1 said:

Does Macc’s track record with evaluating qb’s make you think otherwise?

Irrelevant. I'm just making fun of your ridiculous abuse of the English language.

[RutgersJetFan]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I don't consider myself a draftnik, or think I have an eye for prospective talent, I'm just a guy that likes the game.

An average Joe, what have you.

[Philc1]

3 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Irrelevant. I'm just making fun of your ridiculous abuse of the English language.

Sorry I use big words I’ll speak with emojis more to make you happy 

[Integrity28]

17 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

An average Joe, what have you.

An average mighty joe young.

obvious ape joke is obvious

[SenorGato]

I do not remember this but whatshisname does seem to suck. 

[Integrity28]

16 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Sorry I use big words I’ll speak with emojis more to make you happy 

I like big words and I cannot lie

You other brothers can't deny

That when a derp talks much with an itty bitty brain

I get a snide tone of disdain

They get trolled, want to pull up tough

'Cause ape knows that poop poop poop

 

[BigO]

13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Built a Super Bowl team around a broken down QB, and won 2 as a player.  Yeah, I'd say he's pretty smart. 

And he had the guts to take Lynch though it hasn’t worked out. Mac did the same with Hack but difference is Hack was a huge reach.

[Philc1]

7 hours ago, BigO said:

And he had the guts to take Lynch though it hasn’t worked out. Mac did the same with Hack but difference is Hack was a huge reach.

No GM has a perfect track record but Elway’s is way better than Macc.  Not even close

[#27TheDominator]

The only real take away from this is that Mac called about a ton of QBs.  The good from that is that they obviously know that they need one.  The bad is that they constantly seem to be bargain shopping.  The idea that there are x amount of QB prospects and you can wait for one to fall to you is flawed.  You pick the one that you think you will be able to get to run your offense and don't screw around with "value picks" I think the real takeaway is that he isn't some kind of savant that knows what he is looking for, and that Hackenberg is not necessarily some kind of outlier.  Some people point to him trying for Cousins and Wentz (in particular when it looked like Wentz=good/Goff=bad), like he only goes after the wheat, but he has inquired about plenty of chaff too.  

It will be interesting to see what they make of Mayfield.  I'm not sure where he will go, but he is intriguing.  They seem to like taller big armed guys.  I mean, who doesn't, but the young guys they bring in have been fairly prototypical.  Mayfield is not. 

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

It will be interesting to see what they make of Mayfield.  I'm not sure where he will go, but he is intriguing.  They seem to like taller big armed guys.  I mean, who doesn't, but the young guys they bring in have been fairly prototypical.  Mayfield is not. 

i just alluded to this in another thread.  i hope mccags will keep an open mind with mayfield and jackson.  i imagine their evaluations will vary from team to team moreso than other qbs.  

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10 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I would have gotten a QB. Why does it matter what I would have done? I'm not the GM. My expectation is that the GM gets us a QB. Not Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh McCown. 

I've long said draft a QB every year, even if you find one. They are the most valuable asset in the NFL and can be used as currency - which is what Belicheat seems to understand full well. 

For sport, I'll answer your question.

2017 - I advocated trading back 2-3 spots, even for less than value, then taking Watson or Mahomes. If we didn't do that, I wanted Webb or Peterman in later rounds.

2016 - I advocated trading away the whole draft to move up for Wentz, because I was skeptical of Mac's ability to find any players with those other picks, and thought if you can get the QB, then it's worth not getting a bunch of backup OL and S in later rounds. If we didn't do that, I wanted Prescott or Brissett late. I was really high on Prescott.

2015 - I liked Petty and Hundley, but the anger over winning meaningless Rex games and missing out on Mariota pissed me off. I was more in favor of trading for a backup from some other team. I truthfully cannot remember who.

I don't consider myself a draftnik, or think I have an eye for prospective talent, I'm just a guy that likes the game. That I can be this centered on guys that are viable but our GM is not... informs my opinion of him until further notice.

I would agree I think we should take a QB every year, I think this past draft outside of the first round wouldn't have made sense however since we never got a legit shot to see Petty or Hack. I would bet most teams had Hack rated higher than Brissett (McShay 7th overall QB) and Prescott (McShay 12 overall QB) He's been a bad pick but to be honest there wasn't a player available that I wanted so I was sort of indifferent with the selection.

 

2017 - If we could have traded down this past year and taken a QB I think that would have been ideal, I don't think that there was a player that teams wanted to move up for which is why I believe we made the selection we did. Adams was considered the safest player with the highest floor at a position of need. I think the biggest reason we did not select a QB this past year was because Macc believed he could still have a player in Hack, that to me would be the biggest mistake he made. I'm not gonna lie I'm not overly upset we passed on the QB's given how many QB needy teams passed on them so I don't feel like the NFL overall had a good grasp on what those two players were going to be.

2016 - We would have paid a handsome price to move up from #20 to #2 but it would have been well worth it to have that franchise QB. Rumor is we had a package to get up to #2 but needed to kick in an additional 3rd round, that's without knowing what the rest of the package was. The Eagles were far better equipped to move up for a QB since they had a good OL and some pretty decent weapons. We may have held on to Decker and Marshall had we gotten Wentz.

2015 - This is the year that hurt because I had my heart set on Mariota, unfortunately we can't blame Macc and Bowles for Rex winning games at the end of the season. I thought for sure we were getting our franchise QB this year especially and with all the cap space we had leading into the season we could have signed players to help make his transition easier. Instead Rex won those games which put us out of striking distance for Mariota.

[bla bla bla]

11 hours ago, Philc1 said:

I think what makes the Hack pick look so bad is the rest of the 2015 and 2016 drafts sucked.  

Agreed. I do think Macc has done a good job with 2nd tier FAs and UDFA pick ups that losing an entire draft class would be worth it to roll the dice on a QB.

[Beerfish]

12 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

I think Hack was a bad pick but I understand the gamble. I don't think Dak was in play at that point in the draft so I'm not sure what other direction you'd have him go for QB. The Petty pick was in the 4th round, I'm not sure anyone thought he'd be more than a back up QB.

The bolded part is totally false.  No team ever takes a Qb thinking he is only backup material.  Even late rounders and UDFA teams think the guy will be able to possibly be a starter at some point in time.  Teams like the Pats draft these guys to turn them into trade assets a few years later.  Backups QBs are all over the place and a dime a dozen.  No one drafts a guy with that though in their head.  And as for Petty, the Jets traded up to get him a spot or two.  You do not do that if your are drafting a back up.

As for the whole 'take a gamble' issue.  You take gambles on later picks, guys with character issues, guys with flaws in their game, guys who come from small schools perhaps.  You need to be drafting players who are going to be starters in the 1st few rounds.  The Jets zeroed in on this guy and overdrafted him.  As we have said before, the pick would not be blasted to smithereens as much as it has if it was at least to the level of a Clemens or even geno.  Guys that failed but at least were trending well in college and had a chance to play.  Hack is so awful he can't even come close to seeing the field.

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

As we have said before, the pick would not be blasted to smithereens as much as it has if it was at least to the level of a Clemens or even geno.  Guys that failed but at least were trending well in college and had a chance to play.  Hack is so awful he can't even come close to seeing the field.

I agree with that whole post.  I would like to add to this portion.  Hack's biggest assets were his ability to pick up an offense and to run a pro-style offense.  Both of these things should have given him a certainly level of competence and ability to step in a be the QB, even if an inaccurate one.  Instead he has not only been too bad to play, he has not been good enough to be active.  That has led to the Jets carrying extra QBs on the roster that they obviously don't like.