Building a super unit

[Scott Dierking]

The Pats play a deep cover two that allows you to hit the underneath stuff and guards against big plays. The key to the whole thing is the great play of their front 7, the scheming and the rotating of players which wears down the OL, and also takes advantage of different OL's weaknesses. Still it has the same effect as a great front 7. They may have been mediocre stats wise - but for the above reasons they always made the big stop at the end of the game or got the big turnover and were able to start nobodies at CB.

Furthermore, there has never been a team to win a Super Bowl with strictly a great DB unit. I love having Reveis and I wouldn't even mind getting Samuel and paying big money for him - but none of that is going to matter if we don't get a great pass rush and stop the run. With todays coverage rules you can't afford to put 9 in the box anyway. It is too much of a risk that you won't get to the QB in time and give up the big play.

I'm sure the Chargers did mix coverages - but it is hard to credit Jammer with making those plays if he was playing two deep man as he knows he has the over the top help and can turn his head to the QB as he did. Jammer played it well and Brady made a mistake - but that is different than playing man coverage with no help which is what you would expect from a lock down corner.

RSJ, no where within this thread did I advocate having strictly a great defensive backfield will solve all the Jets ills and that is the ONLY move they need to make.

I only assume you did not read my premise.

Cliff Harris and Charlie Waters were an awesome safety group for the Cowboys in the 70's.

Did they do it alone? Of course not. But that is what great units and tandoms enable you to do, allow your other units to be flexible and do things differntly. And that is the preimise.

I agree that doing it with a secondary is NOT the be all end all, but that is where the Jets are today. We can't change that.

[RSJ]

RSJ, no where within this thread did I advocate having strictly a great defensive backfield will solve all the Jets ills and that is the ONLY move they need to make.

I only assume you did not read my premise.

Cliff Harris and Charlie Waters were an awesome safety group for the Cowboys in the 70's.

Did they do it alone? Of course not. But that is what great units and tandoms enable you to do, allow your other units to be flexible and do things differntly. And that is the preimise.

I agree that doing it with a secondary is NOT the be all end all, but that is where the Jets are today. We can't change that.

I misunderstood your post then and I apologize. I just think that a super front 7 is the way to go. If you look at other great 3-4 teams you will see this. The early 1990's Bills, 80's Giants, 95-06 Steelers, 01-Current Pats, event the 96 Panthers all had great front 7's and went far with this defense. I'm sure I'm missing somebody.

I honestly would leave the Jets seconday alone. I think it is fine the way it is. Maybe you can pick up a late round CB or FS to come in and compete. I would prefer going out and spending our resources on LB, DL, OL, WR, RB and TE before I would want to spend big bucks or a high pick on a CB. I think Reveis is going to be a top 5 corner next year and Rhodes will also be a top 5 safety. I think that is sufficient in the defensive backfield.

[Scott Dierking]

I misunderstood your post then and I apologize. I just think that a super front 7 is the way to go. If you look at other great 3-4 teams you will see this. The early 1990's Bills, 80's Giants, 95-06 Steelers, 01-Current Pats, event the 96 Panthers all had great front 7's and went far with this defense. I'm sure I'm missing somebody.

I honestly would leave the Jets seconday alone. I think it is fine the way it is. Maybe you can pick up a late round CB or FS to come in and compete. I would prefer going out and spending our resources on LB, DL, OL, WR, RB and TE before I would want to spend big bucks or a high pick on a CB. I think Reveis is going to be a top 5 corner next year and Rhodes will also be a top 5 safety. I think that is sufficient in the defensive backfield.

I absolutely agree, a front 7 supergroup is the way to go.

But we have to deal in reality here, and a front 7 super just aint happening.

The 2000 Eagles secondary was a super unit type. They had Bobby Taylor, Troy Vincent and Brian Dawkins. They made others on that defensive that were somewhat ordinary more special.

[RSJ]

I absolutely agree, a front 7 supergroup is the way to go.

But we have to deal in reality here, and a front 7 super just aint happening.

The 2000 Eagles secondary was a super unit type. They had Bobby Taylor, Troy Vincent and Brian Dawkins. They made others on that defensive that were somewhat ordinary more special.

Never thought of the 2000 Eagles. Good point. That was a great secondary. I don't think we are that far way from a super front 7 on defense. I think Harris, B Thomas, Ellis, Hobson and Vilma (as a situational player) can all be parts of that. Pouha played well at the end of the year as well. We do need a NT (easier said than done I know), another ILB (Shouldn't be that hard to find), and a situational pass rushing OLB. If you decide to get a full time pass rushing OLB than he will be replacing Thomas in my eyes because you will still need someone who can cover a TE and I think Hobson can be decent at that. I don't like Thomas in coverage to the point where I will want him doing it a ton. Still if we could get another D Harris in this draft we will be helping the D a ton.

[#27TheDominator]

I misunderstood your post then and I apologize. I just think that a super front 7 is the way to go. If you look at other great 3-4 teams you will see this. The early 1990's Bills, 80's Giants, 95-06 Steelers, 01-Current Pats, event the 96 Panthers all had great front 7's and went far with this defense. I'm sure I'm missing somebody.

I honestly would leave the Jets seconday alone. I think it is fine the way it is. Maybe you can pick up a late round CB or FS to come in and compete. I would prefer going out and spending our resources on LB, DL, OL, WR, RB and TE before I would want to spend big bucks or a high pick on a CB. I think Reveis is going to be a top 5 corner next year and Rhodes will also be a top 5 safety. I think that is sufficient in the defensive backfield.

Who are you advocating as the #2 cb if we leave the secondary alone?

[RSJ]

Who are you advocating as the #2 cb if we leave the secondary alone?

I'm hoping Dyson's problem was just an undisclosed injury and he will be back next year. Otherwise with an improved pass rush and run support I think whoever merges out of Barrett/Miller/Coleman would be fine. With Reveis playing at a lockdown level you could shift your safety help over to that side.

[#27TheDominator]

I'm hoping Dyson's problem was just an undisclosed injury and he will be back next year. Otherwise with an improved pass rush and run support I think whoever merges out of Barrett/Miller/Coleman would be fine. With Reveis playing at a lockdown level you could shift your safety help over to that side.

If Dyson had an injury problem I might agree. I tend to think it goes beyond that since he seems to have found a permanent spot in the doghouse and I don't think underperforming because you're dinged warrants that. As for Barrett/Miller/Coleman, I think that Poteat is superior to any of them and that does not bode well. Besides, with the money saved cutting Barrett they can get somebody anyway.

[Scott Dierking]

I'm hoping Dyson's problem was just an undisclosed injury and he will be back next year. Otherwise with an improved pass rush and run support I think whoever merges out of Barrett/Miller/Coleman would be fine. With Reveis playing at a lockdown level you could shift your safety help over to that side.

Ahhh, see, that is the beauty of the super unit, you can allow your saftey to do other things (run support, blitz), if you have another lockdown corner.

It's like having an extra man:)

[PeterNorth09]

When you play the better teams in the NFL, no "stud CB" can help you if the opposing QB has 4-5 seconds to throw the ball.

4-5 seconds? Try 4-5 minutes with the Jets pathetic front 7 playing in the wrong scheme.

[RSJ]

4-5 seconds? Try 4-5 minutes with the Jets pathetic front 7 playing in the wrong scheme.

Peter we have been through this a million times and you are 100% wrong. The defense has better personel to play a 3-4 than a 4-3.

[RSJ]

If Dyson had an injury problem I might agree. I tend to think it goes beyond that since he seems to have found a permanent spot in the doghouse and I don't think underperforming because you're dinged warrants that. As for Barrett/Miller/Coleman, I think that Poteat is superior to any of them and that does not bode well. Besides, with the money saved cutting Barrett they can get somebody anyway.

I would not be against getting another corner via free agency. I know he is not popular - but I like Barrett personally.

[PeterNorth09]

Peter we have been through this a million times and you are 100% wrong. The defense has better personel to play a 3-4 than a 4-3.

You're right, Dewayne Robertson fits the NT position like a glove and Jonathan Vilma is perfect to play ILB in the 3-4 at 220 lbs.

[RSJ]

Ahhh, see, that is the beauty of the super unit, you can allow your saftey to do other things (run support, blitz), if you have another lockdown corner.

It's like having an extra man:)

I agree, I just don't think you need to go out and spend a lot of money or a high pick to make the DB's a great unit. I like Elam and Barrett - but again if you need to replace on I would think it would be Barrett. I just think we need more play like we had in the second half of the season - but with a better pass rush and a better offense to help keep them off the field more and put them into better positions.

[RSJ]

You're right, Dewayne Robertson fits the NT position like a glove and Jonathan Vilma is perfect to play ILB in the 3-4 at 220 lbs.

You're right Reveis is the perfect cover two corner, Bryan Thomas is Simeon Rice reborn, We have a plethera of NT's to chose from. Get real you would have no pass rush in addition to getting blown off the LOS every play if we went to a 4-3. A 3-4 is more versatile and depends less on the idividual and more on the team. It is a far more flexible defense in order to hide a weakness and we have several players that fit this system.

[serphnx]

You're right Reveis is the perfect cover two corner, Bryan Thomas is Simeon Rice reborn, We have a plethera of NT's to chose from. Get real you would have no pass rush in addition to getting blown off the LOS every play if we went to a 4-3. A 3-4 is more versatile and depends less on the idividual and more on the team. It is a far more flexible defense in order to hide a weakness and we have several players that fit this system.

I have to disagree with that last statement in part, or at least question it. A 3-4 without an NT or explosive OLB is worthless. You can't scheme when you don't have any tools. A 4-3 scheme can work just as well if not better than a 3-4 scheme, it depends on the players and the coordinators. There have been plenty of great 4-3 defenses throughout NFL history, I believe more than 3-4 defenses. In fact, I do believe most if not all the great defenses were 4-3, but I haven't lived long enough to watch most of them so I can't rank or be compeletely sure, so if I am wrong on this I apologize. From what I've been told or have heard though, the great defenses of the past are mostly 4-3.

Our 3-4 has no NT or impact OLB though, so I don't see how it's so much better than our 4-3, which at least has some players that have had success in the past (Vilma, Ellis, DRob maybe)

[#27TheDominator]

You're right Reveis is the perfect cover two corner, Bryan Thomas is Simeon Rice reborn, We have a plethera of NT's to chose from. Get real you would have no pass rush in addition to getting blown off the LOS every play if we went to a 4-3. A 3-4 is more versatile and depends less on the idividual and more on the team. It is a far more flexible defense in order to hide a weakness and we have several players that fit this system.

Revis is the perfect cover 2 corner. He's a fairly big hitter, good in run support. Able to play zone. He's not Chris Houston.

[Greenseed3]

RSJ, Excellent posts... You obviously understand football schemes

Scott Dieking, Excellent thread, I've had very similar thought processes on this board

Here is where I think you guys are missing...

While having a "super-unit" front 7 is the IDEAL way to go;

Improving our defense with an additional shut-down CB, is the QUICKESTway to.

We can instantly better our defense with one piece; improve our pass rush, and run stop, by adding another shut down corner. Asomugha, Trufant, or Samuel.

Building the front seven is important, don't get me wrong... It's just going to take time.

Getting a rookie OLB in an early round, and a rookie DL in an early round, and a rookie ILB in a later round, will slowly and hopefully better our team. But those pieces need time to develop. We can make their NFL adjustment easier by having legitimate help on the outside (i.e., two #1 CBs).

[flgreen]

Thomas was a major disappointment this year. He had a good year as a 3-4 OLB in 06 then was invisible this season. Perhaps he will wake up and get back to his 06 form next season, but I don't know.

Coleman was a good pick up as a 3-4 DE. Not great, but the Jets most solid DL.

Pouha showed some signs of being a serviceable NT. Not great, but there just don't seem to be any NT's this year in either the draft of FA, so we will have to live with him for now.

Ellis is a decent player, but getting a little long in the tooth, and is undersized for the 3-4.

Harris is a stud as a 3-4 ILB. Rhodes is also playing at a Pro Bowl level. Elam is an improvement.

Dyson had a major fall off last season. As I recall he had one of those mysterious leg injuries in camp last year that caused him to miss a week or so of practice, and was never the same player again. I suspect he had a nagging injury, and will be back next season.

Robertson has been a stiff in both the 3-4 and 4-3. He is better suited for the 4-3, but at his salary, should be gone.

Vilma is gone with only one more year on his contract no sense including him in the Jets future. For sure he won't be back in 09.

The defense played respectfully the end of last season.

if they can some how find a pass rushing 3-4 OLB in the draft this will be a much improved defense.

That is if Thomas can get back to 8-12 sacks, and they let Bowens play on passing downs

I honestly don't think the Jets defense is as far away as everyone seems to think. The NT is a problem, but there just isn't anyone out there.

The 4-3 players on the Jets aren't any better then the 3-4 players. IMO worst

By the way the front 7 is actually 2 units. Just saying

[PeterNorth09]

You're right Reveis is the perfect cover two corner, Bryan Thomas is Simeon Rice reborn, We have a plethera of NT's to chose from. Get real you would have no pass rush in addition to getting blown off the LOS every play if we went to a 4-3. A 3-4 is more versatile and depends less on the idividual and more on the team. It is a far more flexible defense in order to hide a weakness and we have several players that fit this system.

I don't know what team you were watching this season but if anything the 3-4 exposed our personnel's weaknesses, particularly the lack of size. D-Rob is simply not big enough to play NT, Vilma is too small to play ILB, same goes for Shaun Ellis playing in the 3-4.

Before Eric Mangini and the 3-4 defense Jonathan Vilma was a pro bowler who led the NFL in tackles. Now, we'll be lucky to fetch a 3rd round pick for him. Eric Barton doesn't like playing in the 3-4 and for all the hype about Bryan Thomas being better in the 3-4 he didn't exactly knock my socks off with his play last year.

Vilma, D-Rob, Ellis and Barton were all better in the 4-3. Yes, we'd still not have a pass rush due to the fact that the Jets don't have a real pass rusher (though Shaun Ellis and D-Rob would probably both improve in that area) but the run defense would be significantly better plus we could keep Vilma rather than giving him away for a 3rd round pick and using all of our cap room to fill the multiple holes in our front 7.

[RSJ]

Revis is the perfect cover 2 corner. He's a fairly big hitter, good in run support. Able to play zone. He's not Chris Houston.

He is a good all around corner. But it is a waiste of his talents to have him play the flats most of the time. The benefit of having him is to enable your safety to creep up to the line.

[RSJ]

I have to disagree with that last statement in part, or at least question it. A 3-4 without an NT or explosive OLB is worthless. You can't scheme when you don't have any tools. A 4-3 scheme can work just as well if not better than a 3-4 scheme, it depends on the players and the coordinators. There have been plenty of great 4-3 defenses throughout NFL history, I believe more than 3-4 defenses. In fact, I do believe most if not all the great defenses were 4-3, but I haven't lived long enough to watch most of them so I can't rank or be compeletely sure, so if I am wrong on this I apologize. From what I've been told or have heard though, the great defenses of the past are mostly 4-3.

Our 3-4 has no NT or impact OLB though, so I don't see how it's so much better than our 4-3, which at least has some players that have had success in the past (Vilma, Ellis, DRob maybe)

You are right that most dominant defenses were probably 4-3 although there have been other 3-4 or variations in the form of 46 which is essentially a similar idea. Problem is you won't see a dynasty running a 4-3 as long as free agency exists. You need 4 great DL in order to dominate in a 4-3. You need 4 guys that are going to beat the OL consistently both against the run or pass. One weak link and a great offense will exploit it.

[RSJ]

RSJ, Excellent posts... You obviously understand football schemes

Scott Dieking, Excellent thread, I've had very similar thought processes on this board

Here is where I think you guys are missing...

While having a "super-unit" front 7 is the IDEAL way to go;

Improving our defense with an additional shut-down CB, is the QUICKESTway to.

We can instantly better our defense with one piece; improve our pass rush, and run stop, by adding another shut down corner. Asomugha, Trufant, or Samuel.

Building the front seven is important, don't get me wrong... It's just going to take time.

Getting a rookie OLB in an early round, and a rookie DL in an early round, and a rookie ILB in a later round, will slowly and hopefully better our team. But those pieces need time to develop. We can make their NFL adjustment easier by having legitimate help on the outside (i.e., two #1 CBs).

I agree with that. I'm all for getting one of the big free agent corners as long as Dyson is shot and it wasn't a nagging injury type situation.

[RSJ]

I don't know what team you were watching this season but if anything the 3-4 exposed our personnel's weaknesses, particularly the lack of size. D-Rob is simply not big enough to play NT, Vilma is too small to play ILB, same goes for Shaun Ellis playing in the 3-4.

Before Eric Mangini and the 3-4 defense Jonathan Vilma was a pro bowler who led the NFL in tackles. Now, we'll be lucky to fetch a 3rd round pick for him. Eric Barton doesn't like playing in the 3-4 and for all the hype about Bryan Thomas being better in the 3-4 he didn't exactly knock my socks off with his play last year.

Vilma, D-Rob, Ellis and Barton were all better in the 4-3. Yes, we'd still not have a pass rush due to the fact that the Jets don't have a real pass rusher (though Shaun Ellis and D-Rob would probably both improve in that area) but the run defense would be significantly better plus we could keep Vilma rather than giving him away for a 3rd round pick and using all of our cap room to fill the multiple holes in our front 7.

Why do you keep acting like D Rob in the 4-3 reminds you of Warren Sapp Circa the prime of his career? D Rob was no good in a 4-3 either. I would argue that he actually has performed better in the 3-4 and I was one that said he couldn't do it.

Our run defense was very good once D Harris stepped in there and Reveis got his feet under him.

Our 4-3 personel is worse than out 3-4 personel and because of the limitedness of the scheme we would never get a pass rush or stop the run. Were you old enough to watch football in 2005? Because that was probably the worst Jets defense ever.

[PeterNorth09]

Why do you keep acting like D Rob in the 4-3 reminds you of Warren Sapp Circa the prime of his career? D Rob was no good in a 4-3 either. I would argue that he actually has performed better in the 3-4 and I was one that said he couldn't do it.

Our run defense was very good once D Harris stepped in there and Reveis got his feet under him.

Our 4-3 personel is worse than out 3-4 personel and because of the limitedness of the scheme we would never get a pass rush or stop the run. Were you old enough to watch football in 2005? Because that was probably the worst Jets defense ever.

When did I say D-Rob was Warren Sapp? All I said was that he played better in the 4-3. The best football D-Rob ever played was in 2004 in a 4-3 with Jason Ferguson next to him. I'd never call D-Rob a pro bowler but I would like to have gotten more out of him especially considering how much the Jets gave up to get him.

D-Rob has been horrific as a Nose Tackle the past two seasons. The Jets run defense was absolutley atrocious this year and near the bottom of the league. These are facts, I'm not going out on a limb saying any of this.

As for David Harris making our run defense "very good" that's absolute rubbish. Yes, Harris is an excellent player and probably the best player Tangini has brought in here but he by himself could not turn around our atrocious run defense by himself nor did he.

Here is a list of the rushing performances RB's have had against our "very good" run defense after David Harris became a starter in week 8:

Week 8: Marshawn Lynch 80 yds

Week 9: Clinton Portis 196 yds (Oh My God)

Week 12: Marion Barber 103 yds

Week 14: Jamal Lewis 118 yds

Week 15: Florence Maroney 104 yds

Week 16: Lendale White 103 yds

I wouldn't call that a "very good" run defense RSJ. Actually, I would call that a piss poor run defense. 5 100 yard rushers (6 really if you count Portis taking an absolute sh*t on us for almost 200 yards) does not qualify as being an even remotely successful run defense. The 3-4 system that Mangini is using sucks and will continue to suck unless there is a complete and total overhaul in personnel.

And as for your comment about me not being old enough to watch football in 2005 that is just flat out lame on your part. Silly personal insult meant to detract from the fact that you have no facts or logic to back-up any of your arguments. You should stop salivating over Eric Mangini's member and start watching football and researching stats RSJ.

[#27TheDominator]

IMO Barton was worse in the 4-3. As he gets older and slower that will be compounded. Vilma and Robertson were probably better in the 4-3. Shaun Ellis has been inconsistent his entire career and is nobody to build a team around. Vilma is the only player of consequence that is worth his contract and is better off in the 4-3. Barrett, Robertson and Barton are all overpaid and could be cut and replaced with that money without much significant drop-off. By most pre-draft accounts Harris is better suited to the 3-4. Bryan Thomas is probably a stiff either way, but seems much better suited to the 3-4.

[RSJ]

When did I say D-Rob was Warren Sapp? All I said was that he played better in the 4-3. The best football D-Rob ever played was in 2004 in a 4-3 with Jason Ferguson next to him. I'd never call D-Rob a pro bowler but I would like to have gotten more out of him especially considering how much the Jets gave up to get him.

D-Rob has been horrific as a Nose Tackle the past two seasons. The Jets run defense was absolutley atrocious this year and near the bottom of the league. These are facts, I'm not going out on a limb saying any of this.

As for David Harris making our run defense "very good" that's absolute rubbish. Yes, Harris is an excellent player and probably the best player Tangini has brought in here but he by himself could not turn around our atrocious run defense by himself nor did he.

Here is a list of the rushing performances RB's have had against our "very good" run defense after David Harris became a starter in week 8:

Week 8: Marshawn Lynch 80 yds

Week 9: Clinton Portis 196 yds (Oh My God)

Week 12: Marion Barber 103 yds

Week 14: Jamal Lewis 118 yds

Week 15: Florence Maroney 104 yds

Week 16: Lendale White 103 yds

I wouldn't call that a "very good" run defense RSJ. Actually, I would call that a piss poor run defense. 5 100 yard rushers (6 really if you count Portis taking an absolute sh*t on us for almost 200 yards) does not qualify as being an even remotely successful run defense. The 3-4 system that Mangini is using sucks and will continue to suck unless there is a complete and total overhaul in personnel.

And as for your comment about me not being old enough to watch football in 2005 that is just flat out lame on your part. Silly personal insult meant to detract from the fact that you have no facts or logic to back-up any of your arguments. You should stop salivating over Eric Mangini's member and start watching football and researching stats RSJ.

And since you haven't noticed I just wanted to point out that Jason Fergeson no longer plays for the Jets and the Jets have no one that could play that role. That is the same problem with running a 3-4. But if you want to go by stats alone, mr stats wiz, D Rob had his best statistical year in 2007. A year inwhich he played in a two gap system I might want to point out to you.

The game is more than just rushing stats. Despite the fact that the Jets defense played with a horrible offense that ranked 26th in time of possesion and often left them with a short field to defend they still played well. You can't simplify things by throwing up rushing yards against a defense. There are other factors to take into consiideration.