Jose Reyes overrated???...

[Zeebers]

Here are Reyes' number projected over a full season for 2008

.295 AVG

120 Runs

197 Hits

44 Doubles

17 Triples

18 HRs

68 RBIs

65 BB

57 SBs

.354 OBP

I know people continue to kill him, but I will take those numbers any day over the course of a season. If the Mets trade him it would be a huge mistake.

[DaBrick Wall]

He's having a very good year but a lot can change over the course of half of a season. He's still a leadoff hitter with a career .333 OBP and that's terrible and he's not even close to being the best player on the Mets.

[Zeebers]

He's having a very good year but a lot can change over the course of half of a season. He's still a leadoff hitter with a career .333 OBP and that's terrible and he's not even close to being the best player on the Mets.

His OBP the last 3 years has been .350+. I can definitely live with that. He's been fairly consistent the last 3 years with a horrible month of September 2007 thrown in. Like him or not, he's a top player.

To say that he is "having a good year" is unfair. Again look at his last 3 seasons since overcoming the leg troubles that hampered him early in his career.

[Matt39]

He's a 25 year old child.

[Zeebers]

He's a 25 year old child.

This is true. He needs to mature a bit, but as far as what he does on the field, how many in baseball can really do what he does? Yes, he's "25" years old he has many many years of baseball left.

I understand he had a little episode last week in Annaheim, but I am not going to get upset about him wanting to stay in the game.

[C-Mart28]

It didnt help much that Willie continued to sit by and let him act such a way, some players need the proper guidance to blossom into full fledged leaders, perhaps Manuel is just the guy to do so

[shawn306]

In the end Reyes numbers will be around where they usually are.

Reyes is the ignitor of the Mets offense. Trading him I think would be a huge mistake. Is there a maturity problem. Yes, but that can be dealt with if management (i.e Omar and the rest of his gang) keep their grips off of him and let the veterans like Alou, Easley show him how to act.

I don't think this is a big deal. I do think that if he is dealt then the Mets should have their heads examined.

[KudosForND]

Here are Reyes' number projected over a full season for 2008

.295 AVG

120 Runs

197 Hits

44 Doubles

17 Triples

18 HRs

68 RBIs

65 BB

57 SBs

.354 OBP

I know people continue to kill him, but I will take those numbers any day over the course of a season. If the Mets trade him it would be a huge mistake.

I think hes a great player and always has been its just some mets fans expectially the ones that live by me overrate him so much. So from the people i kno hes overrated to me. I remember when reyes was jsut a prospect thery were going to trade him for manny and hanley ramriez that wouldve been the best trade for the mets.

[DaBrick Wall]

In the end Reyes numbers will be around where they usually are.

Reyes is the ignitor of the Mets offense. Trading him I think would be a huge mistake. Is there a maturity problem. Yes, but that can be dealt with if management (i.e Omar and the rest of his gang) keep their grips off of him and let the veterans like Alou, Easley show him how to act.

I don't think this is a big deal. I do think that if he is dealt then the Mets should have their heads examined.

If he is dealt it just means that the Mets realize that they have a .330 OBP "leadoff" hitter who media and fans try to portray as an "igniter."

[Blackout]

i'd love to have Jose on my team theoretically

I'd take Hanley over him in a heartbeat but Jose is fine. anyone ripping on him is just looking to point fingers.

[Zeebers]

If he is dealt it just means that the Mets realize that they have a .330 OBP "leadoff" hitter who media and fans try to portray as an "igniter."

It's true his career OBP is t .333 which is on the low side for a lead off hitter. However, if you actually took some time to look at the statistics a little closer you'll realize he's not really a hitter with an OBP of .330. Reyes' first 2 years were marred by injuries so you pretty much have to throw that out the window. I mean he was up in the bigs when he was 19. How many players are patient and discipline at the age of 19. Most of them are either still in college or in low A ball. Take a look at his 4 full seasons.

2005- .273 avg, 27BB, .300 OBP

2006- .300 avg, 53BB, .354 OBP

2007- .280 avg, 77BB, .354 OBP

2008- .297avg, 30BB, .356 OBP

See the trend? His OBP is consistently at or above .350 which is very reasonable especially for a guy with the skills he has. His BBs are steadily increasing which means he's starting to learn the strike zone a bit better. He's probably never going to be a .400 OBP guy but you can more than live with it, because he makes it up in so many other ways. He's got a great ability to hit for extra bases and whenever he gets on, he's almost automatic to score, he's going to consistently score 120 runs. I mean he scored 120 runs last year and pretty much took a month off.

I agree, he still can be a little impatient and undisciplined at the plate, but guess what he just turned 25, his recognition of pitches will improve as past data has shown. Don't believe me, stats like that don't lie.

If you think he's strictly a .330 OBP guy, you're either biased/jealous for whatever reason, or you're just not paying attention. You're probably the same guy who cried missing a great bat in Posada, when he actually is a career .277 hitter.

[DaBrick Wall]

Don't try to use batting average in an argument. Please.

Posada's offensive value as a catcher makes him that much more valuable. He has a career .381 OBP and .863 OPS. Those numbers are more important than batting average.

I never said that Jose Reyes wasn't a good player. But if you think he's not overrated you're insane.

[Scott Dierking]

Don't try to use batting average in an argument. Please.

Posada's offensive value as a catcher makes him that much more valuable. He has a career .381 OBP and .863 OPS. Those numbers are more important than batting average.

I never said that Jose Reyes wasn't a good player. But if you think he's not overrated you're insane.

Guess which player, MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYERS themselves think is overrated? According to a SI poll?

One Derek Jeter. A-Rod was in teh top 5 also.

No mention of Reyes.

[Zeebers]

Don't try to use batting average in an argument. Please.

Posada's offensive value as a catcher makes him that much more valuable. He has a career .381 OBP and .863 OPS. Those numbers are more important than batting average.

I never said that Jose Reyes wasn't a good player. But if you think he's not overrated you're insane.

Your argument was that Reyes is a .330 OBP player as a leader off hitter. I showed, you why you are wrong. Whether Reyes is overrated or not, I'll take his numbers on a yearly basis in a heart beat. Maybe they're not good enough for you. As far as OBP, it is an important statistic, but not nearly as important as you think. Look at guys like Giambi, Dunn, even guys like Jack Cust. I would bet their OBP is relatively high. Are they even close to being top 10, top 15 players in the league?

[DaBrick Wall]

Guess which player, MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYERS themselves think is overrated? According to a SI poll?

One Derek Jeter. A-Rod was in teh top 5 also.

No mention of Reyes.

Are you seriously trying to say the best player in MLB is overrated? Who the **** cares what players think?

BTW Jeter DWARFS Reyes as a SS every year but this half-year so your argument really has no merit at all.

[DaBrick Wall]

Your argument was that Reyes is a .330 OBP player as a leader off hitter. I showed, you why you are wrong. Whether Reyes is overrated or not, I'll take his numbers on a yearly basis in a heart beat. Maybe they're not good enough for you. As far as OBP, it is an important statistic, but not nearly as important as you think. Look at guys like Giambi, Dunn, even guys like Jack Cust. I would bet their OBP is relatively high. Are they even close to being top 10, top 15 players in the league?

This thread isn't about whether Reyes is a good player or not. He is. That still doesn't change the fact that he's looked upon as the "igniter" and one of the top players in the league. He's not. He's OVERRATED.

[Scott Dierking]

Are you seriously trying to say the best player in MLB is overrated? Who the **** cares what players think?

BTW Jeter DWARFS Reyes as a SS every year but this half-year so your argument really has no merit at all.

So players' opinions would be less informed than those of the media and fans, huh?

Please explain.

[DaBrick Wall]

So players' opinions would be less informed than those of the media and fans, huh?

Please explain.

Are you really trying to argue that Alex Rodriguez is overrated? That ALONE gives no credibility to players. Players say some of the dumbest things of anyone. Do you really think Jonathan Papelbon has any credibility, or even Johnny Damon after what he said? If that's not enough, look at the FACTS. THE NUMBERS.

Derek Jeter IS overrated. And so is Jose Reyes.

[Scott Dierking]

Are you really trying to argue that Alex Rodriguez is overrated? That ALONE gives no credibility to players. Players say some of the dumbest things of anyone. Do you really think Jonathan Papelbon has any credibility, or even Johnny Damon after what he said? If that's not enough, look at the FACTS. THE NUMBERS.

Derek Jeter IS overrated. And so is Jose Reyes.

Again, it is what the PLAYERS voted, not me.

I will ask you one more time: How are players LESS informed than fans or the media?

You think some players say some dumb things? Have you heard some fans here?

[Blackout]

is it possible that the players have any bias when voting?

is there a list of who voted for whom???

[DaBrick Wall]

Again, it is what the PLAYERS voted, not me.

I will ask you one more time: How are players LESS informed than fans or the media?

You think some players say some dumb things? Have you heard some fans here?

Players play the game. They don't sit around and look at stats. 90% of the players that voted probably don't see those guys play on a regular basis like fans do. Do other doctors know how well a doctor in the next town is performing? No, patients do. Just because they're in the same profession doesn't make them more informed.

But keep ignoring the facts and using lame, moronic player opinions that try to claim the best third baseman in the game is overrated.

Fun fact, too: In a separate poll, PLAYERS picked A-Rod and Jeter 1-2 as to who they would select first when building a team.

[KudosForND]

Players play the game. They don't sit around and look at stats. 90% of the players that voted probably don't see those guys play on a regular basis like fans do. Do other doctors know how well a doctor in the next town is performing? No, patients do. Just because they're in the same profession doesn't make them more informed.

But keep ignoring the facts and using lame, moronic player opinions that try to claim the best third baseman in the game is overrated.

Fun fact, too: In a separate poll, PLAYERS picked A-Rod and Jeter 1-2 as to who they would select first when building a team.

all those players it think there was 450 of them cant even compare to what jeter and arod have done in there careers its that they are jealous of them both. to say jeter is #1 overrated and arod 3rd is ridiculous.

Reyes is overrated alot of my friends say hes better then jeter all time already. reyes is a top shortstop possibly top 5 but to say hes best shortstop is stupid.

1.Jeter

2.hanley

3.rollins

4.furcal

5.reyes

[Zeebers]

all those players it think there was 450 of them cant even compare to what jeter and arod have done in there careers its that they are jealous of them both. to say jeter is #1 overrated and arod 3rd is ridiculous.

Reyes is overrated alot of my friends say hes better then jeter all time already. reyes is a top shortstop possibly top 5 but to say hes best shortstop is stupid.

1.Jeter

2.hanley

3.rollins

4.furcal

5.reyes

i am not going to say Reyes is better than Jeter until he becomes more disciplined and a lot more consistent. But Jeter is the best Shortstop in the bigs? That makes me scratch my head a little bit. What exactly does he do better than Hanley Ramirez or Jimmy Rollins, 2 guys I think are cream of the crop right now.

[Scott Dierking]

Players play the game. They don't sit around and look at stats. 90% of the players that voted probably don't see those guys play on a regular basis like fans do. Do other doctors know how well a doctor in the next town is performing? No, patients do. Just because they're in the same profession doesn't make them more informed.

But keep ignoring the facts and using lame, moronic player opinions that try to claim the best third baseman in the game is overrated.

Fun fact, too: In a separate poll, PLAYERS picked A-Rod and Jeter 1-2 as to who they would select first when building a team.

Stats don't define ball players

That is a fact that some fans have difficulty with.

Can a layman tell a dentist how to perform a root canal? Of course not. Just like any profession,. the people who are actually the professionals have a greater knowledge of the intricancies.

Sorry you are so emotionally attached to the issue. All I did was report

[DaBrick Wall]

Stats don't define ball players

That is a fact that some fans have difficulty with.

Can a layman tell a dentist how to perform a root canal? Of course not. Just like any profession,. the people who are actually the professionals have a greater knowledge of the intricancies.

Sorry you are so emotionally attached to the issue. All I did was report

I don't know how you can use that argument when they list Alex Rodriguez as the 3rd most overrated baseball player. That's about the furthest thing from the truth. So because baseball players see other players once a year (maybe) they know how well they really perform?

What about the PLAYERS who decided they would pick A-Rod and Jeter 1-2 if starting a team?

[Arsis]

Again, it is what the PLAYERS voted, not me.

I will ask you one more time: How are players LESS informed than fans or the media?

You think some players say some dumb things? Have you heard some fans here?

Because athletes are notoriously stupid. When you think of fair and accurate assessment and evaluation I know that sports players are the first groups of people that come to mind. These are people who never went to college and if they did breezed by because of their athletic status. I would value their opinion and intellectual capacity far lower than that of someone in the media who gets paid to critique performance or fans who watch every game. They are less informed because they are dumb D.U.M dumb.

[Scott Dierking]

Because athletes are notoriously stupid. When you think of fair and accurate assessment and evaluation I know that sports players are the first groups of people that come to mind. These are people who never went to college and if they did breezed by because of their athletic status. I would value their opinion and intellectual capacity far lower than that of someone in the media who gets paid to critique performance or fans who watch every game. They are less informed because they are dumb D.U.M dumb.

I will ask teh question in a more appropriate manner:

Who knows more about BASEBALL, and the ability of BASEBALL PLAYERS? Players themselves or fans and media?

We are not asking them to split atoms here, we are asking them to evaluate their peers.

Who is better equipped to do that? Only honest answers need apply

[KudosForND]

I will ask teh question in a more appropriate manner:

Who knows more about BASEBALL, and the ability of BASEBALL PLAYERS? Players themselves or fans and media?

We are not asking them to split atoms here, we are asking them to evaluate their peers.

Who is better equipped to do that? Only honest answers need apply

but they dont sit there and watch the other players play everyday.. so how can they judge them.

[Scott Dierking]

but they dont sit there and watch the other players play everyday.. so how can they judge them.

Neither do fans or the media.

Any person, whether they are a fan, a member of the media, or a ballplayer, can only cognitively watch one game at any particular time.

And yes, ballplayers DO watch other players EVERY day. It is part of their job. They watch them in games, they talk about them in meetings and they are given scouting reports and they watch video.

Does the average fan or media have access to that info?

[DaBrick Wall]

Stats don't define ball players

That is a fact that some fans have difficulty with.

Can a layman tell a dentist how to perform a root canal? Of course not. Just like any profession,. the people who are actually the professionals have a greater knowledge of the intricancies.

Sorry you are so emotionally attached to the issue. All I did was report

So can you give me your definition of a baseball player?

[Scott Dierking]

So can you give me your definition of a baseball player?

A Major League baseball player?

Someone who makes his living from playing the sport of baseball and derives income from a Major League Bseball team.

I can't believe this has sunk to these depths.

[DaBrick Wall]

A Major League baseball player?

Someone who makes his living from playing the sport of baseball and derives income from a Major League Bseball team.

I can't believe this has sunk to these depths.

You know what I meant. But keep trying to spin the argument. It's worked very well for you so far.

[Blackout]

mr dierking,

could the players voting have any bias?

[Scott Dierking]

You know what I meant. But keep trying to spin the argument. It's worked very well for you so far.

The poll was conducted asking the opinion of Major League Baseball players, about Major League Baseball players.

That is all I can assume you are talking about.

Why don't you tell us, rather than having us guess?

I don't know why some of you are getting so uptight and wrapped around this. It is opinions based upon a predisposed basis that is not measurable.

Granted, the opinions are an informed opinion (Major League baseball players CAN give the best opinion as to other Major League players), but it is a throw away type of poll. There is no measurable element to it.

Why you choose to make anything bigger of it only speaks to your own lack of ability to talk about things with out emotion playing your card.

[Scott Dierking]

[quote name='Blackout