Comparison of first 3 years of Elite QBs

[stoicsentry]

How long do they need to ******* deliberate?

I don't even know how many guys get the CHANCE to be one of the bottom five passers in football for three years. Never mind four, or five or however long you're willing to wait.

A reasonable estimate? Until he's a legit pro-bowler or until he actually has a season in which he regresses. Since neither of those things have happened yet, jury is still out.

[CobraVerde]

HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY GET SACKED??? Im pretty sure not as much as Sanchez his third year. Get sacked as much as he did and anyone will play as bad.

[JustInFudge]

How long do they need to ******* deliberate?

I don't even know how many guys get the CHANCE to be one of the bottom five passers in football for three years. Never mind four, or five or however long you're willing to wait.

Exactly. Too funny. I was just thinking. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to compile a list of QB's who've struggled as much as Sanchez in their first 3 years and NOT become elite or even good. Its probably over whelming, right?

[TheSage]

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QB deserves another shot to earn wings

Jets Blog

Last Updated: 6:29 AM, January 12, 2012

Posted: 12:48 AM, January 12, 2012

MMike Vaccaro

The quarterback was 25 years old, and he had tasted an awful lot of early success in his career. The prior two years his team had won 23 games and lost just nine, and you could sense momentum taking over — both team and quarterback seemed to possess an almost limitless supply of pixie dust.

But something happened that season to the 25-year-old quarterback. Defenses caught up to him. His supporting cast wasn’t as good as it needed to be. He threw 26 touchdown passes and 23 interceptions. And a week after the end of a dreadful playoff-free season, the following quote — unattributed, of course — appeared in the local newspaper:

Anthony J. Causi/New York Post

Post columnist Mike Vaccaro says Mark Sanchez must improve.

“If we’re ever going to be good again, he’ll have to be better than this.”

The quarterback in question? A fellow named Peyton Manning.

OK, let’s take a break here: Before you jam the old email inbox, this is not to say Mark Sanchez is anywhere near the quarterback Manning was at 25, or would have been this year at 35 if not for the small fact that his neck X-rays look like a Jackson Pollock. Manning is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, Sanchez still is very much a work-in-progress.

But that doesn’t change the eerie similarities between where Manning was at age 25 and where Sanchez is at 25 — the fact Manning’s 23-9 became 6-10 in ’01 (as Sanchez’s 19-12 became 8-8 this year), the fact Manning’s 26-23 touchdown-to-interception breakdown is awfully close to Sanchez’s 26-18 ratio, the fact that some nameless malcontent was throwing darts in the Indianapolis Star back in January of ’02.

It doesn’t change this truth: Even the greatest quarterbacks have hiccups. Not every quarterback is the child star Tom Brady was (after a year to do nothing but watch and learn) or Aaron Rodgers (who had three). There is this sense now that Manning appeared one day in the NFL as a fully-formed, fully-finished prodigy, free from the shackles of growing pains.

Not true.

Is Sanchez assured a spot among the elite at his position in the years to come? Not by a long shot. There were some valid points raised by the army of the anonymous: Anyone who watched “Hard Knocks” last year can tell Sanchez’s work habits aren’t exactly Type A, that he slouches and pouts when criticized. The Jets have done him no favors by shielding him from one-on-ones with reporters and limiting his access, even after 50 games as a pro.

You better believe he could use a backup who will push him more than Kellen Clemens and Mark Brunell ever have, one who easily could trot out to start a second half next year if Sanchez had botched a first half. That has to be a team priority, and quick. And even with that, there are no guarantees when it comes to Sanchez.

But to think he is the first 25-year-old quarterback to regress isn’t just laughable, it’s wrong. Steve Young at 25: eight TDs, 13 INTs. Bart Starr: three TDs, 12 INTs. Jim Plunkett: eight TDs, 25 INTs.

Joe Namath at 25: 15 TDs, 17 picks — though there was the small matter of the Super Bowl III win.

Sanchez may yet have more Richard Todd in him than Namath. We’ll see. And the Jets — even his off-the-record wingmen — better hope it’s more Namath.

As Peyton’s personal ombudsman put it back in the day: If they’re ever going to be good again, he’ll have to be better than this.

[Smashmouth]

You know what the difference is with all these wonderful comparisons....none of them sucked nearly as bad as Sanchez.

The dude in 3 years of play, has second most turnovers in the league. 63. 63. 63. Its literally a mircale the Jets are above .500 with Mark Sanchez as the QB.

And Peyton Manning had 64 ,64 ,64 but I guess he got better

[Smashmouth]

Call me a crybaby again. Come'on do it. I dare you!

63

Your a crybaby

64

[CTM]

Anthony J. Causi/New York Post

Post columnist Mike Vaccaro says Mark Sanchez must improve.

“If we’re ever going to be good again, he’ll have to be better than this.”

The quarterback in question? A fellow named Peyton Manning.

OK, let’s take a break here: Before you jam the old email inbox, this is not to say Mark Sanchez is anywhere near the quarterback Manning was at 25, or would have been this year at 35 if not for the small fact that his neck X-rays look like a Jackson Pollock. Manning is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, Sanchez still is very much a work-in-progress.

But that doesn’t change the eerie similarities between where Manning was at age 25 and where Sanchez is at 25 — the fact Manning’s 23-9 became 6-10 in ’01 (as Sanchez’s 19-12 became 8-8 this year), the fact Manning’s 26-23 touchdown-to-interception breakdown is awfully close to Sanchez’s 26-18 ratio, the fact that some nameless malcontent was throwing darts in the Indianapolis Star back in January of ’02.

It doesn’t change this truth: Even the greatest quarterbacks have hiccups. Not every quarterback is the child star Tom Brady was (after a year to do nothing but watch and learn) or Aaron Rodgers (who had three). There is this sense now that Manning appeared one day in the NFL as a fully-formed, fully-finished prodigy, free from the shackles of growing pains.

Not true.

Is Sanchez assured a spot among the elite at his position in the years to come? Not by a long shot. There were some valid points raised by the army of the anonymous: Anyone who watched “Hard Knocks” last year can tell Sanchez’s work habits aren’t exactly Type A, that he slouches and pouts when criticized. The Jets have done him no favors by shielding him from one-on-ones with reporters and limiting his access, even after 50 games as a pro.

You better believe he could use a backup who will push him more than Kellen Clemens and Mark Brunell ever have, one who easily could trot out to start a second half next year if Sanchez had botched a first half. That has to be a team priority, and quick. And even with that, there are no guarantees when it comes to Sanchez.

But to think he is the first 25-year-old quarterback to regress isn’t just laughable, it’s wrong. Steve Young at 25: eight TDs, 13 INTs. Bart Starr: three TDs, 12 INTs. Jim Plunkett: eight TDs, 25 INTs.

Joe Namath at 25: 15 TDs, 17 picks — though there was the small matter of the Super Bowl III win.

Sanchez may yet have more Richard Todd in him than Namath. We’ll see. And the Jets — even his off-the-record wingmen — better hope it’s more Namath.

As Peyton’s personal ombudsman put it back in the day: If they’re ever going to be good again, he’ll have to be better than this.

I can't believe someone who would write an article so dumb is actually employed to write for a living, idiocracy here we come

[TheSage]

I can't believe someone who would write an article so dumb is actually employed to write for a living, idiocracy here we come

here's the "idiot's" resume

Mike Vaccaro

A columnist for the Post since November 2002, Mike Vaccaro has reported from four Olympics, 12 World Series, 10 Super Bowls, eight Final Fours and five U.S. Opens, among the hundreds of events he has covered in his 20-year newspaper career. His "Open Mike" and "Vac’s Whacks" are regular Sunday features, and he has written three books, the latest -- "The First Fall Classic," about the 1912 World Series between the Giants and Red Sox -- is out Oct. 6.

[Maxman]

You know what the difference is with all these wonderful comparisons....none of them sucked nearly as bad as Sanchez.

The dude in 3 years of play, has second most turnovers in the league. 63. 63. 63. Its literally a mircale the Jets are above .500 with Mark Sanchez as the QB.

In Peyton Manning's 4th year he threw 26 TDs and 23 INTs. Clearly he regressed that year. The Colts should have dumped him then while he still had trade value.

[Maxman]

I can't believe someone who would write an article so dumb is actually employed to write for a living, idiocracy here we come

I thought that article was excellent. We will see was his tone and that is the truth. Those that are writing Sanchez off are premature. He has a lot of work to do, but he has the skills to get it done.

[Maxman]

Here are BREES stats in 2005 his 3rd year and last with San Diego and last with Shotty.

Year Team G Att Comp Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD TD% Int Int% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck SckY Rate

2005 San Diego Chargers 16 500 323 64.6 31.2 3,576 7.2 223.5 24 4.8 15 3.0 54 46 4 27 223 89.2

Here is Sanchez's this year

Year Team G Att Comp Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD TD% Int Int% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck SckY Rate

2011 New York Jets 16 543 308 56.7 33.9 3,474 6.4 217.1 26 4.8 18 3.3 74 39 2 39 243 78.2

Very close. Let's see what happens without Shotty

And Brees was benched that year right?

[TheSage]

And Brees was benched that year right?

one writer said that he was benched 3 times

[Maxman]

How long do they need to ******* deliberate?

I don't even know how many guys get the CHANCE to be one of the bottom five passers in football for three years. Never mind four, or five or however long you're willing to wait.

The problem is actually more along the lines of why did they hand the team to him his rookie year? That never made sense to me, a veteran backup may have gotten it done that year or last year.

Now that they have invested 3 years in him, he gets the 4th with a new offense. We will know what he is in short order. But you can't turn back now, unless you are replacing him with Peyton Manning.

[Maxman]

one writer said that he was benched 3 times

Didn't know that, wow.

[bbatelli]

And Brees was benched that year right?

No, 2004. The year before that. He started 16 games in 2005, only 11 in 2004. So unless he started each game in 2005 and pulled 3 times, it had to be in his 2nd year.

[Maxman]

No, 2004. The year before that.

Got it, thanks.

[CTM]

I thought that article was excellent. We will see was his tone and that is the truth. Those that are writing Sanchez off are premature. He has a lot of work to do, but he has the skills to get it done.

You think comparing QB's based on W/L is valid, despite the fact that Sanchez was backed by the best defense and run game in football in 2009, and not to far from that in 2010? (2011, he still had a top defense)

Manning's defense was 28, 27 and 24 by FO in first three years, If Sanchez was supported by that type of defense we'd have been lucky to win 8 games the last 3 years combined.. combined!

My point is that someone who writes for a living should know better and try and teach people something, rather then making a propaganda puff piece designed to comfort and delude people..

[Maxman]

You think comparing QB's based on W/L is valid, despite the fact that Sanchez was backed by the best defense and run game in football in 2009, and not to far from that in 2010? (2011, he still had a top defense)

Manning's defense was 28, 27 and 24 by FO in first three years, If Sanchez was supported by that type of defense we'd have been lucky to win 8 games the last 3 years combined.. combined!

My point is that someone who writes for a living should know better and try and teach people something, rather then making a propaganda puff piece designed to comfort and delude people..

I don't think he was trying to delude people, that seems to be your opinion. He didn't proclaim that Mark was great, and he said he has plenty of work to do. He also said he could use a good push in the form of a backup QB.

I think those were all good points. Not sure how this was a propaganda piece at all.

[CTM]

I don't think he was trying to delude people, that seems to be your opinion. He didn't proclaim that Mark was great, and he said he has plenty of work to do. He also said he could use a good push in the form of a backup QB.

I think those were all good points. Not sure how this was a propaganda piece at all.

I stopped reading when the openning paragrpah was spent comparing Mannign and Sanchez based on wins and losses.. specifically below... Anyone worth reading doesn't even attempt such foolishness

the fact Manning’s 23-9 became 6-10 in ’01 (as Sanchez’s 19-12 became 8-8 this year),

[JustInFudge]

And Peyton Manning had 64 ,64 ,64 but I guess he got better

In Peyton Manning's 4th year he threw 26 TDs and 23 INTs. Clearly he regressed that year. The Colts should have dumped him then while he still had trade value.

The 2 of you should meet and bash your heads together. Comparing Mark Sanchez to Peyton Manning. Unreal.

Also, please dont take into consideration that Peyton had almost 300 more passing attempts than Sanchez and he took over a 3-13 team...because that wouldnt play a factor at all. And I also wouldnt want to know that Manning threw for 30 more TD's at that point in his career or that he turned the franchise around and won 13 games in his second season...none of that matters in this debate at all....or his yards or his completion percentage...yadayadayada.

[Maxman]

The 2 of you should meet and bash your heads together. Comparing Mark Sanchez to Peyton Manning. Unreal.

Also, please dont take into consideration that Peyton had almost 300 more passing attempts than Sanchez and he took over a 3-13 team...because that wouldnt play a factor at all. And I also wouldnt want to know that Manning threw for 30 more TD's at that point in his career or that he turned the franchise around and won 13 games in his second season...none of that matters in this debate at all.

What do you think the Jets should do with Mark Sanchez? He has no trade value, should they just cut him?

[Maxman]

I stopped reading when the openning paragrpah was spent comparing Mannign and Sanchez based on wins and losses.. specifically below... Anyone worth reading doesn't even attempt such foolishness

the fact Manning’s 23-9 became 6-10 in ’01 (as Sanchez’s 19-12 became 8-8 this year),

Gotcha. I will give you the w\l comparison is a stretch. He should have worked in how Mark has more road playoff wins at this point in his career!

[Smashmouth]

The 2 of you should meet and bash your heads together. Comparing Mark Sanchez to Peyton Manning. Unreal.

Also, please dont take into consideration that Peyton had almost 300 more passing attempts than Sanchez and he took over a 3-13 team...because that wouldnt play a factor at all. And I also wouldnt want to know that Manning threw for 30 more TD's at that point in his career or that he turned the franchise around and won 13 games in his second season...none of that matters in this debate at all.

NO JIF we are NOYT comparing Sanchez to the overall body of work Manning has put in but if you look at Mannings career his first 5 years were very erratic and the comparison is vaild at that stage. Manning had some big time regression after a very nice 33 TD 15 Int year on 01. Its just a fact ...its also a fact he had incredible talent all around him at that stage as well but he had to work on pocket presence which was his achillies heel the first 5-6 years of his career. He got it worked out and I think some here feel Sanchezx can get it worked out as well. I would just love to see Sanchez get the chance to do it with guys like Reggie Wayne Marvin Harrison Edggerin James Dallas Clark and a O-Line that actully is not in the business of getting QB's killed. I dont, in those circumstances, think this is a bad comparision at all.

[JustInFudge]

What do you think the Jets should do with Mark Sanchez? He has no trade value, should they just cut him?

The reality is, much to my displeasure that Mark Sanchez will be the QB of the NYJ next season. Unless by some miracle the Jets get Manning. So with that said, I'd like to bring in a rookie or a vet that can compete with Mark in training camp. If Mark doesnt look better than said QB, bench his a$$. Otherwise, give him another year because you have no choice and if he doesnt improve, yes, cut him and dont look back.

IMO Mark Sanchez will never be a good QB in this league. Decent, maybe. Good, never. Great, literally impossible.

[Smashmouth]

Gotcha. I will give you the w\l comparison is a stretch. He should have worked in how Mark has more road playoff wins at this point in his career!

The early year comparison is very valid because it shows how a QB can pull out of a bad year and become a QB who does not choke every year in the playoffs. But if we were making that comparison we would be talking 8 years.

[JustInFudge]

NO JIF we are NOYT comparing Sanchez to the overall body of work Manning has put in but if you look at Mannings career his first 5 years were very erratic and the comparison is vaild at that stage. Manning had some big time regression after a very nice 33 TD 15 Int year on 01. Its just a fact ...its also a fact he had incredible talent all around him at that stage as well but he had to work on pocket presence which was his achillies heel the first 5-6 years of his career. He got it worked out and I think some here feel Sanchezx can get it worked out as well. I would just love to see Sanchez get the chance to do it with guys like Reggie Wayne Marvin Harrison Edggerin James Dallas Clark and a O-Line that actully is not in the business of getting QB's killed. I dont, in those circumstances, think this is a bad comparision at all.

You most certianly did compare them. But whatever.

Manning was a true cant miss prospect. Sanchez was a reach with more question marks than positives. I dont think Sanchez can turn it around because he sucks and unlike all the great QB's you compare him to and the bad 3rd seasons they had, none of them were as big of a long shot as Sanchez to succeed and none of them sucked nearly as bad.

[Smashmouth]

The reality is, much to my displeasure that Mark Sanchez will be the QB of the NYJ next season. Unless by some miracle the Jets get Manning. So with that said, I'd like to bring in a rookie or a vet that can compete with Mark in training camp. If Mark doesnt look better than said QB, bench his a$$. Otherwise, give him another year because you have no choice and if he doesnt improve, yes, cut him and dont look back.

IMO Mark Sanchez will never be a good QB in this league. Decent, maybe. Good, never. Great, literally impossible.

Impossible ? heres where your cerdibility goes in the toilet

[Smashmouth]

You most certianly did compare them. But whatever.

Manning was a true cant miss prospect. Sanchez was a reach with more question marks than positives. I dont think Sanchez can turn it around because he sucks and unlike all the great QB's you compare him to and the bad 3rd seasons they had, none of them were as big of a long shot as Sanchez to succeed and none of them sucked nearly as bad.

ONCE AGAIN READ My POST ....we are talking the first few years of a career here. Why do you continuiously cherry pick or just skip over statements to make your point ?

Ahh I see Sanchez cant turn it around because HE SUCKS

Now since you filled me in on that information I take back everything I said about Mark's possibility of improvement

[Smashmouth]

Jets -- Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress 35, Shonn Greene, Joe McKnight, Dustin Keller, Jeremy Kerley, Ladanian Tomlinson 32

Colts -- Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Eddgerin James, Dallas Clark, I forget some of the others but I think the point is clear.

Not to mention Peyton had very little change from his starting line up he actully got to build his legacy with most of the SAME skill players for years and years while he grew in the NFL and even then the Colts still drafted top talent to keep Peyton where he needed to be.

What did the Jets do this offseason when we were supposed to contend for a SB ???? We signed a 38 year old cast off and a 35 year old out of jail and ignored the O-Line concerns all while 9 mil under the cap. CASE CLOSED/

[JustInFudge]

Impossible ? heres where your cerdibility goes in the toilet

ONCE AGAIN READ My POST ....we are talking the first few years of a career here. Why do you continuiously cherry pick or just skip over statements to make your point ?

Ahh I see Sanchez cant turn it around because HE SUCKS

Now since you filled me in on that information I take back everything I said about Mark's possibility of improvement

First off, I dont give a **** if you think I'm creditable. I'm an idiot fan arguing with another idiot fan on a message board. News Flash: neither of us are.

Secondly, you change the goal posts more than anyone on this site. Its why I avoid debating with you on these topics. I'm cherry picking? ok derpity derp derp. I'm comparing 2 prospects - one who was an all time prospect and one who had more questions marks than positives. You compared their first 3 seasons and should be smacked for such idiocy but I went ahead and gave a mirrored perspective on their first 3 years which Manning was clearly better.

You need to be smacked in the head sometimes. Why you cling to awful players in beyond me.

[JustInFudge]

Jets -- Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burress 35, Shonn Greene, Joe McKnight, Dustin Keller, Jeremy Kerley, Ladanian Tomlinson 32

Colts -- Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Eddgerin James, Dallas Clark, I forget some of the others but I think the point is clear.

Not to mention Peyton had very little change from his starting line up he actully got to build his legacy with most of the SAME skill players for years and years while he grew in the NFL and even then the Colts still drafted top talent to keep Peyton where he needed to be.

What did the Jets do this offseason when we were supposed to contend for a SB ???? We signed a 38 year old cast off and a 35 year old out of jail and ignored the O-Line concerns all while 9 mil under the cap. CASE CLOSED/

Now this is profound.

I'm convinced. Sanchez >>>> Peyton Manning. Look out Canton, make way for one smexy mexican.

[Smashmouth]

First off, I dont give a **** if you think I'm creditable. I'm an idiot fan arguing with another idiot fan on a message board. News Flash: neither of us are.

Secondly, you change the goal posts more than anyone on this site. Its why I avoid debating with you on these topics. I'm cherry picking? ok derpity derp derp. I'm comparing 2 prospects - one who was an all time prospect and one who had more questions marks than positives. You compared their first 3 seasons and should be smacked for such idiocy but I went ahead and gave a mirrored perspective on their first 3 years which Manning was clearly better.

You need to be smacked in the head sometimes. Why you cling to awful players in beyond me.

JIF if Im anything Im 100 % consistent in my opinions. Im not sure what your refering too when you say I "change the goal posts" .

Once again you fail to see why the comparison was made and I feel sorry for you for that.

The comparison was made to show a QB can improve not to compare the 2 QB's careers. It shows you completely miss the over all point constantly.

I also showed that Sanchez has had to deal with wholesale changes every year at WR and thats its probably having an effect on his growth as a QB. The I go on the show how the COLTS ORGANIZATION handled it exactly the opposite giving their QB not only top prospects to play with but keeping those same players on the team throughout the growth process.

If you cant understand these observations than do me a favor and dont respond to the posts. Its that simple.

Oh and BTW you dont see me clinging to Eric Smith, Wayne Hunter, Joe McKnight, Derrick Mason, Santonio Holmes, MAtt Mulligan, Vlad Ducasse, Antonio Cromartie, Should I continue ??

[JustInFudge]

The comparison was made to show a QB can improve not to compare the 2 QB's careers. It shows you completely miss the over all point constantly.

No, I understand you dud...but my point is, one was a good prospect the other wasnt. And go figure, one was really good his first 3 years and now headed to Canton and the other one is really bad and headed out of the league and into a full time modeling career. The comparison sucks almost as bad as Sanchez.

Hey, I hope Sanchez gets better - but I dont lie to myself on what I see on Sundays. Which is someone who will never be a good QB. Sorry.

[Smashmouth]

No, I understand you dud...but my point is, one was a good prospect the other wasnt. And go figure, one was really good his first 3 years and now headed to Canton and the other one is really bad and headed out of the league and into a full time modeling career. The comparison sucks almost as bad as Sanchez.

Hey, I hope Sanchez gets better - but I dont lie to myself on what I see on Sundays. Which is someone who will never be a good QB. Sorry.

They were both good prospects JIF . Of course Manning was a much better prospect for a lot of reasons but you cant say Sanchez was not a good prospect or he would not have been the 5th selection in the draft.

When it comes to what Sanchez will be in the comming years I think he has the ability to succeed if we surround him with some talent he can grow with and be consistent with. You cant just keep trying to fix this offense with castoffs and old players it just does not work.

I want you to keep in mind Im not saying Sanchez is playing well I just think hes dealing with issues out of his control. QB;s and WR's get better with time as they work together year in and year out. There is a very delicate balance there and if you keep Fcuking with that balance you get fcuked up results. there is more to being successful as a QB than just having the talent to play. All Im saying is get this kid a cast he can work with for a few years . By signing a 38 year old and a 35 year old what are you setting your self up for down the road ? Im just asking for him to get the same chance other young Franchise QB's get . Now this year hes probably going to lose Tomlinson, Possibly Burress, and if the Jets are really pissed off enough Holmes. What then ?? March a new crew of misfits in here ? if you dont see this as a problem Just tell me and I'll stop wasting my time argueing with you on the subject

[kelly]

mark is gonna be just fine