Should The Jets Just Tank 2013 For Higher 2014 Draft Picks?

[T0mShane]

Yes. He is set up to fail and the entire board WANTS to set him up to fail by tanking the season to get this mythical franchise player. A couple of flies in that ointment. First of all, they probably won't be as bad as you think. The everyone you reference is an idiot. We have seen that countless times. No matter what players you give him, I am willing to bet Ryan fields a decent D. Then it comes down to Mornhinweg putting up some points. If the team looks to be headed in the right direction, you don't fire the coach and start over. Second, we haven't seen what Idzik will do as far as trades and moving money around. It's just possible that Idzik isn't planning to tank the season.

Replace "Morninwheig" with "Sparano," and I'll guarantee you made a similar post last year. What's "mythical" is the idea that getting the offense to work a smidge better somehow makes our overrated defense into the Steel Curtain.

[T0mShane]

Dealing with a GM who is, presumably, in charge. Keeping a lower profile, as that is what has most people hating him. We'll see how he does. Objectively you have all made up your minds and where I come from that is not being objective.

Being "objective" would entail admitting that a coach having three failed seasons in a row would get that coach fired. If Rex drags this dead cat to 9-7, maybe you have an argument, but that's not really likely.

[unbanmadmike1]

Oh my!  They have to pay a guy to coach the team?!?! Shocking.  It depends on the 8-8.  There are different kinds  of 8-8 and your "ceiling" and "miserable roster" are a little premature.  

You don't see the implications of giving a coach an extension coming off of 3 years of sh*t? 

[#27TheDominator]

Replace "Morninwheig" with "Sparano," and I'll guarantee you made a similar post last year. What's "mythical" is the idea that getting the offense to work a smidge better somehow makes our overrated defense into the Steel Curtain.

 

Right.  I never liked the Sparano hire, but I understood the philosophy.  You are debating a point I am not fighting over.  I admit the bad O makes the D look better.  In fact, I think that was one of the reasons they went with Sparano.  They thought they could reduce the mistakes, have the offense do very little and hit on a few home run shots.  I think that Hill fit this philosophy perfectly.  He gets wide-open it's impossible for Sanchez not to see him.  He either catches a TD or drops it.  Parcells tried some similar things.  Mornhinweg will not put up with that and will try to put points up.  That will certainly put more pressure on the D.  I think they will be up for it, but there is no guarantee.  If they  aren't Rex should be gone.  If they are, it will depend on a bunch of other factors.  

 

I agree that he probably will get the boot, but I think that you guys deciding the arc of the team before the draft is moronic. The team made the AFC title in 2009 when everybody thought they would suck.  We were way further along than this in 2008 when our only hope was the great production we would get from our high draft pick.  See what the season brings and keep an open mind.  I admit that I like Rex, but he has done some bad things as a coach and a leader.  I'm not blind to that, but I'm also not some genius sitting here and acting like those teams went as far as they did in 2009 and 2010 because of Mangini. 

[unbanmadmike1]

Right.  I never liked the Sparano hire, but I understood the philosophy.  You are debating a point I am not fighting over.  I admit the bad O makes the D look better.  In fact, I think that was one of the reasons they went with Sparano.  They thought they could reduce the mistakes, have the offense do very little and hit on a few home run shots.  I think that Hill fit this philosophy perfectly.  He gets wide-open it's impossible for Sanchez not to see him.  He either catches a TD or drops it.  Parcells tried some similar things.  Mornhinweg will not put up with that and will try to put points up.  That will certainly put more pressure on the D.  I think they will be up for it, but there is no guarantee.  If they  aren't Rex should be gone.  If they are, it will depend on a bunch of other factors.  

 

I agree that he probably will get the boot, but I think that you guys deciding the arc of the team before the draft is moronic. The team made the AFC title in 2009 when everybody thought they would suck.  We were way further along than this in 2008 when our only hope was the great production we would get from our high draft pick.  See what the season brings and keep an open mind.  I admit that I like Rex, but he has done some bad things as a coach and a leader.  I'm not blind to that, but I'm also not some genius sitting here and acting like those teams went as far as they did in 2009 and 2010 because of Mangini. 

Yeah but it's just a black and white talent issue. If you think this team has comparable talent to the 2009 or 2010 teams, thats just not true. 

[#27TheDominator]

Being "objective" would entail admitting that a coach having three failed seasons in a row would get that coach fired. If Rex drags this dead cat to 9-7, maybe you have an argument, but that's not really likely.

 

 

You don't see the implications of giving a coach an extension coming off of 3 years of sh*t? 

 

 

You two hear what you want to hear.  3 years of sh*t? Failed seasons? IMO this team does not need to have such a great record to be a success.  It depends on how they get there and how they set themselves for the future.  The same reasons that you guys saw the 8-8 in 2011 as if it were a 4-11, but the Steelers 8-8 last year was just a blip.  You've made up your minds and decided that anybody that doesn't agree is stupid, so why ask?  

[#27TheDominator]

Yeah but it's just a black and white talent issue. If you think this team has comparable talent to the 2009 or 2010 teams, thats just not true. 

 

 

There isn't a ******* team. It's the first week of March for crying out loud.  Wait 'til camp starts to get the incense and start last rites.

[unbanmadmike1]

You two hear what you want to hear.  3 years of sh*t? Failed seasons? IMO this team does not need to have such a great record to be a success.  It depends on how they get there and how they set themselves for the future.  The same reasons that you guys saw the 8-8 in 2011 as if it were a 4-11, but the Steelers 8-8 last year was just a blip.  You've made up your minds and decided that anybody that doesn't agree is stupid, so why ask?  

Yeah but 2011 wasn't a blip because the team got WORSE the next year. 

[unbanmadmike1]

Yeah but 2011 wasn't a blip because the team got WORSE the next year. 

 

 

There isn't a ******* team. It's the first week of March for crying out loud.  Wait 'til camp starts to get the incense and start last rites.

 

I understand that but do you really think it's likely that they can fill even half their holes in one off season with one draft and 2m or so of extra cap room

[#27TheDominator]

Yeah but 2011 wasn't a blip because the team got WORSE the next year. 

 

So if the Steelers do worse they should gut the team? 

[unbanmadmike1]

So if the Steelers do worse they should gut the team? 

Well they are already pretty much in the process of rebuilding on D and letting their offense get younger... 

[T0mShane]

Right. I never liked the Sparano hire, but I understood the philosophy. You are debating a point I am not fighting over. I admit the bad O makes the D look better. In fact, I think that was one of the reasons they went with Sparano. They thought they could reduce the mistakes, have the offense do very little and hit on a few home run shots. I think that Hill fit this philosophy perfectly. He gets wide-open it's impossible for Sanchez not to see him. He either catches a TD or drops it. Parcells tried some similar things. Mornhinweg will not put up with that and will try to put points up. That will certainly put more pressure on the D. I think they will be up for it, but there is no guarantee. If they aren't Rex should be gone. If they are, it will depend on a bunch of other factors.

I agree that he probably will get the boot, but I think that you guys deciding the arc of the team before the draft is moronic. The team made the AFC title in 2009 when everybody thought they would suck. We were way further along than this in 2008 when our only hope was the great production we would get from our high draft pick. See what the season brings and keep an open mind. I admit that I like Rex, but he has done some bad things as a coach and a leader. I'm not blind to that, but I'm also not some genius sitting here and acting like those teams went as far as they did in 2009 and 2010 because of Mangini.

If you'll recall, I went up to Cortland for Rex's first camp and I came away relatively impressed (I predicted 8-8). But, let's not forget, that 2008 team was 8-3 at one point--the cupboard was far from bare, and the talent here played well into Rex's strengths (good corners, huge LBs). I think that 08-09 team is far superior to this 12-13 team as of today, and not having any viable OLBs hurts his scheme, and the inevitable Revis trade hurts is worse. This has all the makings of a rough year unless they unearth a B+ quarterback. That's all the Rex Denouncers are saying. Rex and Tannenbaum consciously designed this team to look like this after four years--they swung for the fences and came up wayyyyyyyy short. It's hard to generate any sympathy for them.

[T0mShane]

You two hear what you want to hear. 3 years of sh*t? Failed seasons? IMO this team does not need to have such a great record to be a success. It depends on how they get there and how they set themselves for the future. The same reasons that you guys saw the 8-8 in 2011 as if it were a 4-11, but the Steelers 8-8 last year was just a blip. You've made up your minds and decided that anybody that doesn't agree is stupid, so why ask?

Yeah, winning two Super Bowls in five years while having a Hall of Fame QB sorta earns you a lil benefit of the doubt.

[#27TheDominator]

If you'll recall, I went up to Cortland for Rex's first camp and I came away relatively impressed (I predicted 8-8). But, let's not forget, that 2008 team was 8-3 at one point--the cupboard was far from bare, and the talent here played well into Rex's strengths (good corners, huge LBs). I think that 08-09 team is far superior to this 12-13 team as of today, and not having any viable OLBs hurts his scheme, and the inevitable Revis trade hurts is worse. This has all the makings of a rough year unless they unearth a B+ quarterback. That's all the Rex Denouncers are saying. Rex and Tannenbaum consciously designed this team to look like this after four years--they swung for the fences and came up wayyyyyyyy short. It's hard to generate any sympathy for them.

 

We do not know how much influence Rex had on that plan.  I agree it has all makings of a rough year, but it's we're not there yet.

 

 

 

Yeah, winning two Super Bowls in five years while having a Hall of Fame QB sorta earns you a lil benefit of the doubt.

 

Right, but what Rex did earns you guys lowering him into the ground and pouring dirt on him. 

[unbanmadmike1]

We do not know how much influence Rex had on that plan. I agree it has all makings of a rough year, but it's we're not there yet.

Right, but what Rex did earns you guys lowering him into the ground and pouring dirt on him.

Yeah he actually did. He ran the team into the ground, SUBSTANTIALLY gutted the talent level all over the roster over 3 years, proved to be absolutely cluelss as to how to coach an offense, made horrible assistant coaching hires, was a complete moron in player evaluation and was incompetent on gameday. All the while making the franchise a laughing stock by running his mouth with stuff he and his team didn't backup.

[#27TheDominator]

Yeah he actually did. He ran the team into the ground, SUBSTANTIALLY gutted the talent level all over the roster over 3 years, proved to be absolutely cluelss as to how to coach an offense, made horrible assistant coaching hires, was a complete moron in player evaluation and was incompetent on gameday. All the while making the franchise a laughing stock by running his mouth with stuff he and his team didn't backup.

 

 

How do they ever win?  

[slats]

Yeah he actually did. He ran the team into the ground, SUBSTANTIALLY gutted the talent level all over the roster over 3 years, proved to be absolutely cluelss as to how to coach an offense, made horrible assistant coaching hires, was a complete moron in player evaluation and was incompetent on gameday. All the while making the franchise a laughing stock by running his mouth with stuff he and his team didn't backup.

How did he substantially gut the talent level? When I look at the roster of the 2008 team, it's not like that was exactly a powerhouse.

Rex was saddled with Schottenheimer -the runner-up in the Jets HC search- for years, and Sparano was a bad hire. Like Dom, I understood the logic of the move, but it clearly did not pan out. I'm interested to see how Mornhinweg does here. He's a "name" offensive coach, the kind of coach a lame duck head coach with Mark Sanchez at QB really shouldn't be able to land. Not sure which other assistant coach hires were horrible.

Hopefully the vast majority of his talent evaluation responsibilities have been stripped with the hire of Idzik. If not, then the Idzik hire is a bad one before he even gets started. Rex has already toned down a lot of the rhetoric. I think your complaints about him are much more blustery than anything Rex has bloviated.

[unbanmadmike1]

How did he substantially gut the talent level? When I look at the roster of the 2008 team, it's not like that was exactly a powerhouse.

Rex was saddled with Schottenheimer -the runner-up in the Jets HC search- for years, and Sparano was a bad hire. Like Dom, I understood the logic of the move, but it clearly did not pan out. I'm interested to see how Mornhinweg does here. He's a "name" offensive coach, the kind of coach a lame duck head coach with Mark Sanchez at QB really shouldn't be able to land. Not sure which other assistant coach hires were horrible.

Hopefully the vast majority of his talent evaluation responsibilities have been stripped with the hire of Idzik. If not, then the Idzik hire is a bad one before he even gets started. Rex has already toned down a lot of the rhetoric. I think your complaints about him are much more blustery than anything Rex has bloviated.

Compare the 2008 roster to the 2012 roster. It speaks for itself. 

[slats]

Compare the 2008 roster to the 2012 roster. It speaks for itself. 

I looked. You speak for it, it's not saying much.

[unbanmadmike1]

I looked. You speak for it, it's not saying much.

You don't see the substantial drop off in talent?

[slats]

You don't see the substantial drop off in talent?

I don't see you defending your position.

There's a significant drop off from Favre to Sanchez, obviously, but Favre never wanted to be here and fell apart as a Jet anyway. What are the other significant drop offs? Leon Washington? Brad Smith? I think the Jets were wise not to pay either of those guys. Thomas Jones? LT was a nice replacement there, but you're on board with me that RB is a young mans position and shouldn't be a high priced vet, anyway. Kris Jenkins? Alan Faneca? Both lines continue to be better than average, or better than that. Is Holmes and Kerley really worse than Cotchery and Coles? Is Keller worse than Keller?

The big problems on the roster are the severely overpriced players who are still here, and the bounty of picks used to acquire them. The culprit there has been identified and removed.

[unbanmadmike1]

I don't see you defending your position.

There's a significant drop off from Favre to Sanchez, obviously, but Favre never wanted to be here and fell apart as a Jet anyway. What are the other significant drop offs? Leon Washington? Brad Smith? I think the Jets were wise not to pay either of those guys. Thomas Jones? LT was a nice replacement there, but you're on board with me that RB is a young mans position and shouldn't be a high priced vet, anyway. Kris Jenkins? Alan Faneca? Both lines continue to be better than average, or better than that. Is Holmes and Kerley really worse than Cotchery and Coles? Is Keller worse than Keller?

The big problems on the roster are the severely overpriced players who are still here, and the bounty of picks used to acquire them. The culprit there has been identified and removed.

You're making two different arguments. You're right that letting guys like Brad Smith, Washington, Jones, LT, Kris Jenkins and Faneca  walk was the right thing to do. I agree with you. But the other side of that coin is what they did to replace those players and they have downgraded at those positions without exception, going from solid older players to FA's and draft picks who simply can't play.

 

Also is there any reason to think that the 2013 OL will be better than average with the fact they have zero starting caliber guards under contract?

[slats]

You're making two different arguments. You're right that letting guys like Brad Smith, Washington, Jones, LT, Kris Jenkins and Faneca  walk was the right thing to do. I agree with you. But the other side of that coin is what they did to replace those players and they have downgraded at those positions without exception, going from solid older players to FA's and draft picks who simply can't play.

Jeremy Kerley replaced Brad Smith who replaced Leon Washington, and that's been a net positive. LT was brought in by Rex to replace Thomas Jones, and that was an upgrade, too. Athough, I prefer they don't go the veteran RB route. I don't think they downgraded from Jenkins, who missed a lot more games than he played in over his last two years. The only real argument you can make is Faneca -who was also overpaid- but it's not like the OL had a severe drop off after he left, either.

So where is this severe gutting of the roster that you keep rambling on about? I'd contend that if they merely replaced Favre with an adequate QB that there'd be no talk about a roster falling apart.

Also is there any reason to think that the 2013 OL will be better than average with the fact they have zero starting caliber guards under contract?

Ah... so we need to jump into the hypothetical future to discuss the gutting. I'm willing to see who the Jets opt to keep, sign, and draft, before weighing in on where the OL is going to be in 2013.

Still haven't seen you site any real examples of a gutting of the roster at the hands of Rex.

[JustInFudge]

If you'll recall, I went up to Cortland for Rex's first camp and I came away relatively impressed (I predicted 8-8). But, let's not forget, that 2008 team was 8-3 at one point--the cupboard was far from bare, and the talent here played well into Rex's strengths (good corners, huge LBs). I think that 08-09 team is far superior to this 12-13 team as of today, and not having any viable OLBs hurts his scheme, and the inevitable Revis trade hurts is worse. This has all the makings of a rough year unless they unearth a B+ quarterback. That's all the Rex Denouncers are saying. Rex and Tannenbaum consciously designed this team to look like this after four years--they swung for the fences and came up wayyyyyyyy short. It's hard to generate any sympathy for them.

 

 

LMFAO - when Rex arrived to the NYJ, his starting offensive line up was Kellen Clemens, Jerricho Cotchery, Chansi Stuckey, Dustin Keller and Thomas Jones.

 

LOOK OUT NFL!!!!

[SenorGato]

You never answered the question: how long does Rex get?

See JiF's answer.

[JustInFudge]

How do they ever win?  

 

Superior Coaching...duh.  I think its clearly obvious from this discussion that without Rex the Jets never have a winning season.

[JustInFudge]

Jeremy Kerley replaced Brad Smith who replaced Leon Washington, and that's been a net positive. LT was brought in by Rex to replace Thomas Jones, and that was an upgrade, too. Athough, I prefer they don't go the veteran RB route. I don't think they downgraded from Jenkins, who missed a lot more games than he played in over his last two years. The only real argument you can make is Faneca -who was also overpaid- but it's not like the OL had a severe drop off after he left, either.

So where is this severe gutting of the roster that you keep rambling on about? I'd contend that if they merely replaced Favre with an adequate QB that there'd be no talk about a roster falling apart.

Ah... so we need to jump into the hypothetical future to discuss the gutting. I'm willing to see who the Jets opt to keep, sign, and draft, before weighing in on where the OL is going to be in 2013.

Still haven't seen you site any real examples of a gutting of the roster at the hands of Rex.

 

I dont think you get it.  Its Rex Ryan's fault that he took over the juggernaut offense that I described above and drove into the sh*t bag we see today.  And its totally his fault that he inherited a bunch of players on their last leg who are no longer in the NFL.

[slats]

I dont think you get it.  Its Rex Ryan's fault that he took over the juggernaut offense that I described above and drove into the sh*t bag we see today.  And its totally his fault that he inherited a bunch of players on their last leg who are no longer in the NFL.

The team started going downhill the moment he traded Brett Ratliff and Kenyon Coleman to the evil Mangini - who's obviously a much better coach/talent evaluator than Rex will ever be given all his success in the league.

[#27TheDominator]

Rex Ryan is not a quality GM candidate.  I don't think anybody here has disputed that.  OTOH, as far as cuts go, literally the only player they have gotten rid of that has gone on to success is Woodhead.  Woody, Jenkins and Tomlinson are out of the league.  Braylon Edwards had as much success with the Jets in 2012 as he did the rest of 2011 and 2012.  What other bad personnel decision did he make?  Ihedigbo?  The GM is supposed to provide a bunch of players to compete for roster spots.  The coach is supposed to pick the best.  I don't see the coach falling down on the job in that scenario.

[JustInFudge]

The team started going downhill the moment he traded Brett Ratliff and Kenyon Coleman to the evil Mangini - who's obviously a much better coach/talent evaluator than Rex will ever be given all his success in the league.

 

Dont forget Abram Elam.  

 

Besides, the real damage came when Hank Poteat, Eric Barton, Jason Trusnick and David Bowens left to join Mangini and help form that dominant read and react defense that we all loved so dearly.  

[JustInFudge]

Rex Ryan is not a quality GM candidate.  I don't think anybody here has disputed that.  OTOH, as far as cuts go, literally the only player they have gotten rid of that has gone on to success is Woodhead.  Woody, Jenkins and Tomlinson are out of the league.  Braylon Edwards had as much success with the Jets in 2012 as he did the rest of 2011 and 2012.  What other bad personnel decision did he make?  Ihedigbo?  The GM is supposed to provide a bunch of players to compete for roster spots.  The coach is supposed to pick the best.  I don't see the coach falling down on the job in that scenario.

 

Blasphemy!!!!  Shaun Ellis >>>> Mo Wilk

 

Duh

[unbanmadmike1]

Rex Ryan is not a quality GM candidate.  I don't think anybody here has disputed that.  OTOH, as far as cuts go, literally the only player they have gotten rid of that has gone on to success is Woodhead.  Woody, Jenkins and Tomlinson are out of the league.  Braylon Edwards had as much success with the Jets in 2012 as he did the rest of 2011 and 2012.  What other bad personnel decision did he make?  Ihedigbo?  The GM is supposed to provide a bunch of players to compete for roster spots.  The coach is supposed to pick the best.  I don't see the coach falling down on the job in that scenario.

Who did they replace them with though?

 

Leon Washington was replaced by Joe McKnight. 

Brad Smith was replaced by Chaz Schillins and later Tebow

Fanaca was replaced by Matt Slausen and Ducasse.

Thomas Jones and his 1400 yards was replaced by an over the hill LT who was replaced by Shonn Greene and Bilal Powell.

How about not replacing Thomas, Scott and Pace untill they were WAY over the hill?

How about trotting Eric Smith out there to get burned game after game?

 

Those are all substantial downgrades!

[T0mShane]

Yeah he actually did. He ran the team into the ground, SUBSTANTIALLY gutted the talent level all over the roster over 3 years, proved to be absolutely cluelss as to how to coach an offense, made horrible assistant coaching hires, was a complete moron in player evaluation and was incompetent on gameday. All the while making the franchise a laughing stock by running his mouth with stuff he and his team didn't backup.

Well, yeah.

[T0mShane]

LMFAO - when Rex arrived to the NYJ, his starting offensive line up was Kellen Clemens, Jerricho Cotchery, Chansi Stuckey, Dustin Keller and Thomas Jones.

LOOK OUT NFL!!!!

And that's just about what they have now, four years later, you dumb bunny.

[T0mShane]

See JiF's answer.

Who?