Programs Win, Not Picking High In the Draft

[jamesr]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So you have no evidence for the flip side of the argument.  Just a bunch of cliche bullsh*t. 

Most of the teams who tank are replacing half their roster the following offseason.  Hardly any of those guys that are there for the meaningless wins return.  Think 2020 Jets.  Who from that 2-14 roster was still there even 2 years later? 

Once you're out of the playoff picture, playing for pride isn't really a thing no matter how you old school guys like to think it is.  No one cares.  They're already making offseason plans once they're mathematically eliminated.  

So you reckon Hall, Sauce, Wilson, Q and Q, etc etc etc, would happily lie down and take one this week from the hated Patsies without caring one way or the other? Players care. If you tell them that we're going to lose on purpose, you basically say that they care more than the organisation does. That's when they start to look at how soon they can get the hell out of here.

Yes, just my opinion. I don't see what evidence is ever going to be available? But the same goes both ways - where's the actual evidence of teams tanking year in year out, that is a conscious decision to lose? 99.9% is hearsay and speculation.

Players don't tank. Coaches don't tank. GM's might try to - but most likely they also get fired, so why would they? Tanking is far, far more in the minds of fans than anyone else. In my opinion. Just look at how all the teams playing "meaningless games" did last weekend for example.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jamesr said:

Players don't tank. Coaches don't tank. GM's might try to 

FFS why do people keep thinking this needs to be said?  Of course they don't.

Tanking is a 2-part procedure, typically:  1) Fire the HC midseason; 2) Install an interim HC and have him play the young guys.

That's it.  That's the whole plan.  Sometimes teams win anyways.  Oh well. 

Point is the Jets have been winning meaningless December games for decades and its almost always hurt us.

[jamesr]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Does it really matter if the tanking is unintentional or not?  The point is these teams didn't f**k up their draft positions with meaningless December wins to get where they got.  The Rams were the worst franchise of the 2000s.  They're no longer a loser franchise.  Why?  Lot's of early picks and stockpiling of young talent.  The trade down from # 2 overall with Washington (RG3 deal) set them up for the next decade.  They got to that # 2 spot by sucking/tanking.

Same thing with the Bengals and Jaguars.  Whether they accidentally tanked or not isn't really relevant.  They didn't f**k up their draft positions with meaningless December wins and that's what we're talking about here.  

Tanking, by its definition, is intentional. It is losing by design. Sucking is just losing.

Tanking is trying to suck EVEN more than you actually do.

One team will lose the Jets - Patsies game this week. One will win. Does that mean the loser chose to? Or just sucked enough that they had no choice anyway?

(Now watch us play out a tied ballgame  )

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, jamesr said:

Tanking, by its definition, is intentional. It is losing by design. Sucking is just losing.

Tanking is trying to suck EVEN more than you actually do.

One team will lose the Jets - Patsies game this week. One will win. Does that mean the loser chose to? Or just sucked enough that they had no choice anyway?

(Now watch us play out a tied ballgame  )

I sure as hell hope the Pats don't lose as they'll end up with the # 2 or 3 pick.  You want them getting Drake Maye, Marvin Harrison Jr, or the 3 first round picks they'd get back in a trade down?

[jamesr]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

FFS why do people keep thinking this needs to be said?  Of course they don't.

Tanking is a 2-part procedure, typically:  1) Fire the HC midseason; 2) Install an interim HC and have him play the young guys.

That's it.  That's the whole plan.  Sometimes teams win anyways.  Oh well. 

Point is the Jets have been winning meaningless December games for decades and its almost always hurt us.

I guess if we go all in we should stop winning meaningless games in Sept / Oct / Nov too, do it really properly. Lose out for 3 or so years, build that team up then playoffs and hopefully Superbowl(s) to follow.

"Tanking is a 2-part procedure, typically:  1) Fire the HC midseason; 2) Install an interim HC and have him play the young guys." - qualifying teams this year would be the Raiders and Chargers? Raiders are currently picking 11th - they'd have the second pick right now had they not won 4 of their 7 games after firing everyone and starting O'Connell. Did they try to tank and then failed dismally at it? I guess the Chargers are doing it "right" by losing three games after clearing house. And getting Herbert injured in the process so they can start Easton Stick. You call it tanking, I just call it sucking. Potato / potahto.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, jamesr said:

I guess if we go all in we should stop winning meaningless games in Sept / Oct / Nov too, do it really properly. Lose out for 3 or so years, build that team up then playoffs and hopefully Superbowl(s) to follow.

Now you're getting it!  We did that in 2020, then f**ked it all up by winning 2 December games.

[jamesr]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I sure as hell hope the Pats don't lose as they'll end up with the # 2 or 3 pick.  You want them getting Drake Maye, Marvin Harrison Jr, or the 3 first round picks they'd get back in a trade down?

What NE get is beyond my control. If we lose to them I won't cry about it, but I also won't be moaning about years of Patsie dominance upcoming if we win. Who's to say Maye isn't next year's Bryce Young? Who's to say they even draft him? BB is a 'genius' at trading down and taking multiple mediocre "Patriot Way" types of player, I'd actually quite like to see them trade #2 overall and end up with some interior OL and a safety that no-one had ranked anywhere at all.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, jamesr said:

What NE get is beyond my control. 

No but it CAN be in the Jets control, no?

[jamesr]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Now you're getting it!  We did that in 2020, then f**ked it all up by winning 2 December games.

Because we'd be set at QB for years to come with T Law.  

Or, in true Jets fashion, we'd have secured the #1 pick and STILL taken Zach.  

[jamesr]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No but it CAN be in the Jets control, no?

If I found out that they threw the game because they were worried about who NE might draft if they won - I'd be looking for a new team. Playing scared like that would be the most pathetic thing I had ever seen us do - and there's a LOT of competition for that crown.   

[Ron Rico]

On 1/4/2024 at 4:52 AM, Jets723 said:

They had 3 firsts and they got Breece Hall in the second.  So they got Sauce, GW, JJ, and Breece. Again pretty good no?

Oh it was very good. 

[HawkeyeJet]

Winning Culture, Organizational Strength so on and so forth is such an interesting topic to me.  I could listen to people talk about it for days.  I was a manager for the Iowa football program a few moons ago and it made me a firm believer that culture matters more than nearly anything(but not quite everything)

[Ron Rico]

8 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Winning Culture, Organizational Strength so on and so forth is such an interesting topic to me.  I could listen to people talk about it for days.  I was a manager for the Iowa football program a few moons ago and it made me a firm believer that culture matters more than nearly anything(but not quite everything)

One of the most profound thing I ever heard is, "If you have to tell people you are, you aint." 

 

[Adoni Beast]

11 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Winning Culture, Organizational Strength so on and so forth is such an interesting topic to me.  I could listen to people talk about it for days.  I was a manager for the Iowa football program a few moons ago and it made me a firm believer that culture matters more than nearly anything(but not quite everything)

This is spot on and it applies to any industry or organization. The right kind of culture creates standards, expectations, and most importantly....self-policing which is one of the most underrated aspects of a good culture versus a bad one. Sure the c-suite and bosses can dictate and overlook but in a good culture the great majority will correct sh*t and not allow things to fall through the cracks.

That self-policing of the "small things" is ultimately what makes up the difference between bad / good, good / great. 

[peebag]

59 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Winning Culture, Organizational Strength so on and so forth is such an interesting topic to me.  I could listen to people talk about it for days.  I was a manager for the Iowa football program a few moons ago and it made me a firm believer that culture matters more than nearly anything(but not quite everything)

But Iowa still sucks.

[HawkeyeJet]

15 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:

This is spot on and it applies to any industry or organization. The right kind of culture creates standards, expectations, and most importantly....self-policing which is one of the most underrated aspects of a good culture versus a bad one. Sure the c-suite and bosses can dictate and overlook but in a good culture the great majority will correct sh*t and not allow things to fall through the cracks.

That self-policing of the "small things" is ultimately what makes up the difference between bad / good, good / great. 

I am not an expert on the subject by any stretch, but one thing I heard that always stuck with me is that every program has a culture. Whether it’s the culture they planned or want is a different story.  But it will always show up.

In my opinion the Jets have a culture they didn’t plan on(doesn’t mean some don’t want it) and can’t figure out how to change it even if they realize it’s detrimental.

The Jets culture is built around big personalities and individual accomplishments.  Everything from the owner, to the coach to the players themselves, it’s always talking about 1 guy and what he has done well or how good he will be in the future.  That’s the stuff that gets repeated more than anything.  That’s the stuff that gets reinforced, intentionally or not.   I could get further into how I believe that impacts on field play but that’s a whole other post all together.

Until the vast majority of the actions and words are focused on the Jets and not the individuals that make up the Jets, things won’t change.  Because the guy who just false started for the 5th time 
or gave up a key 1st for an unnecessary roughness penalty cares more about his contribution then how it impacts everyone as a whole.  And in his own head he can explain away those mistakes pretty easily because our culture doesn’t penalize stuff like that.  It just rewards other stuff.

 

[Adoni Beast]

33 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I am not an expert on the subject by any stretch, but one thing I heard that always stuck with me is that every program has a culture. Whether it’s the culture they planned or want is a different story.  But it will always show up.

In my opinion the Jets have a culture they didn’t plan on(doesn’t mean some don’t want it) and can’t figure out how to change it even if they realize it’s detrimental.

The Jets culture is built around big personalities and individual accomplishments.  Everything from the owner, to the coach to the players themselves, it’s always talking about 1 guy and what he has done well or how good he will be in the future.  That’s the stuff that gets repeated more than anything.  That’s the stuff that gets reinforced, intentionally or not.   I could get further into how I believe that impacts on field play but that’s a whole other post all together.

Until the vast majority of the actions and words are focused on the Jets and not the individuals that make up the Jets, things won’t change.  Because the guy who just false started for the 5th time 
or gave up a key 1st for an unnecessary roughness penalty cares more about his contribution then how it impacts everyone as a whole.  And in his own head he can explain away those mistakes pretty easily because our culture doesn’t penalize stuff like that.  It just rewards other stuff.

 

I also think a big component to this are the length of bad hires and who THOSE people hired, scouts, assistants, position coaches. There’s been no foundation, no quality legacy people who can produce anything of merit. They need a pipeline of, well EVERYTHING. And this is directly reflective of your point….it comes back to ownership and he/they prioritize. 
 

I thought they finally got the guy to change this in Douglas and maybe he can still be that but I have my doubts and until proven otherwise, Woody Johnson / Chris Johnson I say to you…

 

[jamesr]

I am not an expert on the subject by any stretch, but one thing I heard that always stuck with me is that every program has a culture. Whether it’s the culture they planned or want is a different story.  But it will always show up.
In my opinion the Jets have a culture they didn’t plan on(doesn’t mean some don’t want it) and can’t figure out how to change it even if they realize it’s detrimental.
The Jets culture is built around big personalities and individual accomplishments.  Everything from the owner, to the coach to the players themselves, it’s always talking about 1 guy and what he has done well or how good he will be in the future.  That’s the stuff that gets repeated more than anything.  That’s the stuff that gets reinforced, intentionally or not.   I could get further into how I believe that impacts on field play but that’s a whole other post all together.
Until the vast majority of the actions and words are focused on the Jets and not the individuals that make up the Jets, things won’t change.  Because the guy who just false started for the 5th time 
or gave up a key 1st for an unnecessary roughness penalty cares more about his contribution then how it impacts everyone as a whole.  And in his own head he can explain away those mistakes pretty easily because our culture doesn’t penalize stuff like that.  It just rewards other stuff.
 

The whole offense / defense thing we have going on is also an issue ... creates a division and a "them and us" feeling. Not conducive to playing as a single team. The mentality on offense of "don't screw up" is not a good one. The more you think about not screwing up, the more you screw up.

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[Dunnie]

I along with many have wanted the Jets to lose this & every season after they were eliminated from playoff contention. To get the highest draft pick possible. 
Look how far that’s gotten us. 
It’s great programs that win. Not where you draft. Good/great programs like the Chiefs, Ravens, Niners, Packers, Pats, Steelers, et al drafted at the end of the first round annually for many years when they’ve been good. Yet they just kept winning. Because their great programs.
Picking high in the draft is fool’s gold. Unless it’s for a legit franchise QB. 
The only time we should be rooting for the Jets to lose is if we’re convinced the current regime is incompetent. This regime seems to check that box. So yes I don’t mind if the Jets lose Sunday because JD & Saleh’s results have been awful and the hotter their seats the better. They either rise to the occasion next season or get gone asap. 
This endless cycle of rooting to lose for a high draft pick is a loser’s game. Instead we can hope the Jets to win Sunday because a light finally went on in this regime’s dim bulb. Otherwise we’ll be back in the exact same place next year. 

Exactly

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[Dunnie]

The whole offense / defense thing we have going on is also an issue ... creates a division and a "them and us" feeling. Not conducive to playing as a single team. The mentality on offense of "don't screw up" is not a good one. The more you think about not screwing up, the more you screw up.

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"Don't screw it up" has ruined two premier QB picks in the top 3, three in the top 6.

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