Is it too Early to Compare Sauce Gardner to Darrelle Revis?

[Warfish]

Sauce has been pretty exceptional in coverage, similar to Revis, through two seasons.

But he is clearly lagging in generation of turnovers, with only 2 (yes, only 2) INT's over two full seasons of play.

Respectfully, that's not elite.  Elite corners are expected to be both great in one on one coverage AND great at generating turnovers via INT's.

Sauce, unlike Revis, has not been man-on-man with the oppositions best receiver (scheme or not, it's a simple fact) and he is lagging well behind Revis in INT's through two seasons (Revis had 8 through 2 years, Deion Sanders had 8 through two years, Darrell Green had 7 through two years, etc.).

So while it's never "too early" to comp. players to other players, I would offer that Sauce, while very good in coverage clearly, has not yet reached the elite level of the greatest CB's through their first two seasons.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Sauce has been pretty exceptional in coverage, similar to Revis, through two seasons.

But he is clearly lagging in generation of turnovers, with only 2 (yes, only 2) INT's over two full seasons of play.

Respectfully, that's not elite.  Elite corners are expected to be both great in one on one coverage AND great at generating turnovers via INT's.

Sauce, unlike Revis, has not been man-on-man with the oppositions best receiver (scheme or not, it's a simple fact) and he is lagging well behind Revis in INT's through two seasons (Revis had 8 through 2 years, Deion Sanders had 8 through two years, Darrell Green had 7 through two years, etc.).

So while it's never "too early" to comp. players to other players, I would offer that Sauce, while very good in coverage clearly, has not yet reached the elite level of the greatest CB's through their first two seasons.

Hard to intercept the ball when they aren't throwing it at you. That said, we need to see what happens when he's put one-on-one with the #1 receiver instead of locked in a zone. 

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Hard to intercept the ball when they aren't throwing it at you. That said, we need to see what happens when he's put one-on-one with the #1 receiver instead of locked in a zone. 

Do you have evidence that they're throwing the ball less than they did at Revis, Sanders, Green, other top DB's over NFL history?

And if so, as you somewhat note, that may simply be part and parcel of Sauce covering 2nd and sometimes 3rd tier WR's if they happen to be on "his assigned side" of the field in the Saleh scheme.

Regardless, the evaluation stands.  Elite DB's generate game-changing turnovers when they present themselves, and Sauce, so far, has not.  He'd had no shortage of opportunities on INT'able balls over these two seasons.

Obviously we're all hoping that changes in 2024.

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Sauce has been pretty exceptional in coverage, similar to Revis, through two seasons.

But he is clearly lagging in generation of turnovers, with only 2 (yes, only 2) INT's over two full seasons of play.

Respectfully, that's not elite.  Elite corners are expected to be both great in one on one coverage AND great at generating turnovers via INT's.

Sauce, unlike Revis, has not been man-on-man with the oppositions best receiver (scheme or not, it's a simple fact) and he is lagging well behind Revis in INT's through two seasons (Revis had 8 through 2 years, Deion Sanders had 8 through two years, Darrell Green had 7 through two years, etc.).

So while it's never "too early" to comp. players to other players, I would offer that Sauce, while very good in coverage clearly, has not yet reached the elite level of the greatest CB's through their first two seasons.

Yea, through 2 seasons, Revis had 8 picks, including a pick 6

[Long Island Leprechaun]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Do you have evidence that they're throwing the ball less than they did at Revis, Sanders, Green, other top DB's over NFL history?

And if so, as you somewhat note, that may simply be part and parcel of Sauce covering 2nd and sometimes 3rd tier WR's if they happen to be on "his assigned side" of the field in the Saleh scheme.

Regardless, the evaluation stands.  Elite DB's generate game-changing turnovers when they present themselves, and Sauce, so far, has not.  He'd had no shortage of opportunities on INT'able balls over these two seasons.

Obviously we're all hoping that changes in 2024.

Revis in 2009 had 111 targets, Sauce last year had 53. You can assume that man coverage on the best receiver a team has would garner more targets. Revis was sensational that year against some of the best receivers in the game (HOF level guys).  But from an interception standpoint, much harder to get them if you're not targeted. Simple math. 

 

I should have added that Darrell Green average about 2.5 interceptions a year in his long career. Not sure why that should be considered "elite" by your standards...

[Warfish]

29 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Revis in 2009 had 111 targets, Sauce last year had 53.

Link to source please?  Not that I doubt these numbers per se, more interested, as my own source (which is pretty thorough) doesn't seem to have this data, so knowing a source that does would be nice.

29 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

You can assume that man coverage on the best receiver a team has would garner more targets.

Which I believe only further separates the two players.  If Revis truly faced double the targets, Sauces' similar level of quality was under half the pressure.  Less than half when one considers he was playing against any WR on his side, not the #1.  Factor that in, and the near-total lack of INT's, and I think my original view, that Sauce is not yet Revis's equal, stands on pretty firm ground.

29 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Revis was sensational that year against some of the best receivers in the game (HOF level guys).  But from an interception standpoint, much harder to get them if you're not targeted. Simple math.

Partially true.  It's easier to steal INT's vs. lesser/poorer WR's for example.  Or worse QB's (that analysis would take ages, and I'm not doing it, lol).  But yes, if you're thrown at less, you have less total opportunities to steal an INT, agreed.

29 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I should have added that Darrell Green average about 2.5 interceptions a year in his long career. Not sure why that should be considered "elite" by your standards...

/shrug. 

Green is a HOF CB, one of the greatest CB's on his era, by most accounts far as I am aware.  I cited him because he came to mind, being I live in DC region. 

If you disagree that he was an elite CB because over his loooooooong career he only averaged 2 INT's a year, so be it.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Said opinion only further supports my core point here, since Sauce is only averaging 1 INT a year, well below a "non-elite", in your mind, DB in D. Green.

[batman10023]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Do you have evidence that they're throwing the ball less than they did at Revis, Sanders, Green, other top DB's over NFL history?

And if so, as you somewhat note, that may simply be part and parcel of Sauce covering 2nd and sometimes 3rd tier WR's if they happen to be on "his assigned side" of the field in the Saleh scheme.

Regardless, the evaluation stands.  Elite DB's generate game-changing turnovers when they present themselves, and Sauce, so far, has not.  He'd had no shortage of opportunities on INT'able balls over these two seasons.

Obviously we're all hoping that changes in 2024.

have you seen a breakdown of what receiver he's covering (by percent)?  i.e wr1, wr2 etc.

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

have you seen a breakdown of what receiver he's covering (by percent)?  i.e wr1, wr2 etc.

I haven't, is such a thing available from a reputable source?  If so, by all means link it, it's make interesting reading.

[JohnnyLV]

On 5/26/2024 at 1:17 PM, KRL said:

If he starts to regularly travel and shutdown the other teams #1 WR we can start the

comparison.  Until then its apples vs. oranges even though Gardner has been impressive

Let's be honest, he has been more than impressive. He is the #1 CB in the NFL already and arguably has been for 2 years. Saleh using him wrong is just Saleh being the incompetent buffoon he is. Reed does not travel well so having Sauce follow is easier said than done and somewhat exploitable.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Link to source please?  Not that I doubt these numbers per se, more interested, as my own source (which is pretty thorough) doesn't seem to have this data, so knowing a source that does would be nice.

Which I believe only further separates the two players.  If Revis truly faced double the targets, Sauces' similar level of quality was under half the pressure.  Less than half when one considers he was playing against any WR on his side, not the #1.  Factor that in, and the near-total lack of INT's, and I think my original view, that Sauce is not yet Revis's equal, stands on pretty firm ground.

Partially true.  It's easier to steal INT's vs. lesser/poorer WR's for example.  Or worse QB's (that analysis would take ages, and I'm not doing it, lol).  But yes, if you're thrown at less, you have less total opportunities to steal an INT, agreed.

/shrug. 

Green is a HOF CB, one of the greatest CB's on his era, by most accounts far as I am aware.  I cited him because he came to mind, being I live in DC region. 

If you disagree that he was an elite CB because over his loooooooong career he only averaged 2 INT's a year, so be it.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Said opinion only further supports my core point here, since Sauce is only averaging 1 INT a year, well below a "non-elite", in your mind, DB in D. Green.

ESPN just had an article today about the Jets considering giving Sauce more opportunities for man coverage and cited his targets. If you look up Revis targets in 2009 it comes up in several sites. Green's interceptions was from Pro Football Reference. Green was a great corner. You're the one saying elite status has to be based on turnovers, not me. Sanders was the poster child for that argument. Bottom line, I agree with you that Sauce has a long way to go to be up to Revis's prime years. But he has a good chance of being a great CB based on his first two years in the league. Revis took a few to get up to speed.

[HessStation]

On 5/26/2024 at 6:29 PM, Vader said:

Sauce had a better rookie year. Revis' peak was debatably the most dominant CB peak in NFL history. Many miles to go before a full comp. I'd speculate Sauce doesn't reach Revis absolute shut-down peak and is just a notch below but makes more game changing big plays during his career.

Plus rule changes are even more pro O now…Peak Revis for 3 years was as good as any CB ever 

[FootballLove]

Their styles are soo different. Revis was a midget (compared to Sauce) but he'd turn his head around and attack the ball. Sauce does a good job of keeping pace with the WR, watching their hands, then stabbing/swatting the ball away when they go for the catch.

Revis attacked the ball....Sauce attacks the hands.

Sauce's style of play will limit his ints, which in turn means QBs will not necessarily fear throwing to his side.

[Warfish]

4 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Bottom line, I agree with you that Sauce has a long way to go to be up to Revis's prime years.

OK, great.

4 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

But he has a good chance of being a great CB based on his first two years in the league. Revis took a few to get up to speed.

I agree, Sauce has a good chance to be great.

Not sure what the basis is for "Revis took a few to get up to speed", as that's not my memory, nor do the stats seem to support that, but ok.