It Doesn't Happen Often

[bitonti]

Vince Young is what he is

a beater of bad defenses

a runner

a jersey seller

he's not a championship QB or even a playoff QB, despite the media hype

if he can pull a stunt like he did yesterday against New England, Chicago or Baltimore then i'll be impressed

I saw that game and that play - Texans had a jailhouse blitz with no QB spies - it was poor coaching and VY took advantage.

It won't be that easy once teams start gameplanning for his running ability like they did for Vick. Will people stop his running ability? Probably not, but in this league the only way to beat a good defense in the playoffs is with your arms not your legs.

[PeterNorth09]

Kellen Clemens hasn't played a meaningful snap in his career. You have no idea how good he will be. None whatsoever. None of us do. He could end up being better than your darlings VY and Lionheart. Hell, he could end up being better than my man Mr. Cutler. No one has any ****ing clue.

Your agenda against Kellen Clemens is ridiculous. He hasn't even got on the field and you talk about him as if he's Ryan Leaf. Give it a ****ing rest until we see what he can do.

Yeah, Kellen Clemens could be better than Vince Young. So could Charlie Whitehurst or Marcus Vick. No one's seen them play meaningful snaps at QB either. Omar Jacobs could be better than Tom Brady, we'll just never know until he gets to start an NFL game.

I have nothing against Kellen Clemens, but we passed up on Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler for this guy and I'm not going to buy into this crap that he's better than the big 3.

Hey, how's Brodie Croyle working out in KC? Remember he was supposed to be better than Vince Young and Matt Leinart too, just like Kellen Clemens. Are you going to blame Herm Edwards for that too?

[Matt39]

Someone actually said Croyle was going to be better than Young and Leinart?

The guy sucked in college.

[Barton]

Vince Young is what he is

a beater of bad defenses

a runner

a jersey seller

he's not a championship QB or even a playoff QB, despite the media hype

if he can pull a stunt like he did yesterday against New England, Chicago or Baltimore then i'll be impressed

I saw that game and that play - Texans had a jailhouse blitz with no QB spies - it was poor coaching and VY took advantage.

It won't be that easy once teams start gameplanning for his running ability like they did for Vick. Will people stop his running ability? Probably not, but in this league the only way to beat a good defense in the playoffs is with your arms not your legs.

Exactly.

Vince Young can run all over the defenses like the colts and texans, but talk to me when this guy actually has a great game throwing the ball. How many TDs did he throw yesterday? Oh yeah, zero. His style doesnt win jack sh#t in the NFL. He's a really inaccurate passer to boot.

[DireJet38]

Young haters seem like nerds to me.

How can you not like the upsiode on this guy?

Have any of you played sports before?

Can't you see he has that competetive edge, that something you can't teach.

It's mind boggling, not every qb is going to fit into your perfect drop back, perfect form, never scramble mode.

He does with what he has.

And he's doing it with style.

[Barton]

Young haters seem like nerds to me.

How can you not like the upsiode on this guy?

Have any of you played sports before?

Can't you see he has that competetive edge, that something you can't teach.

It's mind boggling, not every qb is going to fit into your perfect drop back, perfect form, never scramble mode.

He does with what he has.

And he's doing it with style.

LOL yeah I played all kinds of sports until I was 13, including football.

This is the fact. A running QB doesnt win superbowls. NEVER HAS. And Young is not a good passer at this point. To say "I'm sold on him now" doesnt make any sense, because he is winning these games with his feet, not his arm.

When he wins games with his arm, I will give him credit. But right now, he is a horrible passer.

[bitonti]

Young haters seem like nerds to me.

maybe I am a nerd

only a nerd would know that the following QBs were said would revolutionize the game with their feet - and none of them did anything until they became passers first.

Roger Staubach

John Elway

Steve Young

Randall Cunningham

Donovan Mcnabb

Mike Vick

We've seen this show before. Maybe that makes me a nerd, but until Vince Young does something against a good defense I will err on the side of history.

[DireJet38]

LOL yeah I played all kinds of sports until I was 13, including football.

This is the fact. A running QB doesnt win superbowls. NEVER HAS. And Young is not a good passer at this point. To say "I'm sold on him now" doesnt make any sense, because he is winning these games with his feet, not his arm.

When he wins games with his arm, I will give him credit. But right now, he is a horrible passer.

So you would know that as an athlete, vince young is the kinda guy you want on your team

On your side, right?

Who cares how he wins games?

Do you get more points when you throw the ball?

A lot of things 'never happened,' before they happened.

Obvisouly.

Stop being so final in your thoughts.

It limits the mind.

you are just scared, admit it.

[Barton]

So you would know that as an athlete, vince young is the kinda guy you want on your team

On your side, right?

Who cares how he wins games?

Do you get more points when you throw the ball?

A lot of things 'never happened,' before they happened.

Obvisouly.

Stop being so final in your thoughts.

It limits the mind.

you are just scared, admit it.

Yeah, maybe in high school or college......

I could careless how he wins games if he was my QB, but beating crappy defenses with your feet doesnt impress me.

The goal is winning a superbowl. Superbowl defenses arent gonna let a QB run all over them, it doesnt happen. You gotta pass to win.

I'm not closing the book on Vince, just saying that he really needs to improve as a passer.

[bitonti]

the Young lovers might not realize this by watching him but he's not even all that fast as an athlete. He's not as fast as Vick who was snagged by Adalius Thomas and broke his leg.

Sooner or later Young will get hurt or at least banged up... we are in the honeymoon of Vince Young just wait until good defenses start game planning him in the playoffs it will be a whole nother story.

[Barton]

the Young lovers might not realize this by watching him but he's not even all that fast as an athlete. He's not as fast as Vick who was snagged by Adalius Thomas and broke his leg.

Sooner or later Young will get hurt or at least banged up... we are in the honeymoon of Vince Young just wait until good defenses start game planning him in the playoffs it will be a whole nother story.

Exactly. He's not even that fast. He's no faster than Cotchery.

[serphnx]

Passing TDs aren't really that important, it's TD drives led. At the goal line, it becomes very difficult to get passes in, so having the ability to run and getting TDs that way is fine.

I can guarantee that Chad can't beat 4 teams in a row. The Titans have knocked off the Colts, Eagles, Giants and Texans in consecutive games. Outside of the Texans, thats beating one of the top teams in the NFL, and two wild card teams, even if it is in the NFC. It's not like the Giants and Eagles are worse than the Bills or anything. and that Eagles game was a slaughter. I'd have to agree with Dire, the VY haters really do seem like negative nerds to me. Why do none of the other QBs get this kind of negativity? I mean what about Romo, who has he beaten? He uses his mobility too. Or Rivers, the guy has been pretty awful the past few games. Nope, it's just "VY sucks" and apparently nobody else. If you're going to extend the standards you have for evaluating VY to every other QB in the league, outside of Tom Brady and maybe Jake Delhomme (and that's stretching it) you'd really have to say every single QB in the NFL sucks. Doesn't that look absolutely absurd? Seriously, outside of Tom Brady, show me the QB that consistently beats the good defenses? VY put up 26 against the Ravens and lost by a point, he sucks against good defenses right? Throwing for 211 yards with an 8.1 y/a, the guy can't pass. You can't even blame VY for that loss, they had a 19 point lead that the defense blew in the second half.

Seriously, what do you want from the kid? If VY isn't a good QB, show me the list of NFL QBs that is, and compare VY's rookie years to theirs. This is absolutely absurd.

[shutout]

Passing TDs aren't really that important, it's TD drives led. At the goal line, it becomes very difficult to get passes in, so having the ability to run and getting TDs that way is fine.

I can guarantee that Chad can't beat 4 teams in a row. The Titans have knocked off the Colts, Eagles, Giants and Texans in consecutive games. Outside of the Texans, thats beating one of the top teams in the NFL, and two wild card teams, even if it is in the NFC. It's not like the Giants and Eagles are worse than the Bills or anything. and that Eagles game was a slaughter. I'd have to agree with Dire, the VY haters really do seem like negative nerds to me. Why do none of the other QBs get this kind of negativity? I mean what about Romo, who has he beaten? He uses his mobility too. Or Rivers, the guy has been pretty awful the past few games. Nope, it's just "VY sucks" and apparently nobody else. If you're going to extend the standards you have for evaluating VY to every other QB in the league, outside of Tom Brady and maybe Jake Delhomme (and that's stretching it) you'd really have to say every single QB in the NFL sucks. Doesn't that look absolutely absurd? Seriously, outside of Tom Brady, show me the QB that consistently beats the good defenses? VY put up 26 against the Ravens and lost by a point, he sucks against good defenses right? Throwing for 211 yards with an 8.1 y/a, the guy can't pass. You can't even blame VY for that loss, they had a 19 point lead that the defense blew in the second half.

Seriously, what do you want from the kid? If VY isn't a good QB, show me the list of NFL QBs that is, and compare VY's rookie years to theirs. This is absolutely absurd.

The reason the Vince Young haters aren't getting on Romo or Rivers' cases are because no one is making them out to be the NFL's Michael Jordan. The reason Vince Young detractors are so negative towards the guy is because all the VY backers are so positive,so certain the guy will be a Hall-of-Famer who revolutionizes the way the position is played.

I'm with Troll in admitting I was wrong to think the guy would be a total bust in the NFL,but at the same time,I'm with Barton and Bit in saying lets not induct the guy into Canton just yet,maybe wait for him to play a few seasons,see if he can keep winning with his style while defensive genuises get some more video of the guy to study. Remember what happened to Chad after 2002. Wasn't he supposed to be the next Joe Montana?

[Brenjetsfan]

I was wrong.

I don't know what IT is, but Vince Young has IT.

I thought he would be a poor man's Michael Vick. He's been starting for half a season and he's already better than Vick, who is in his sixth or seventh year.

My bad. I bow to TX.

thanks to that AWESOME O line CENTER....

[serphnx]

The reason the Vince Young haters aren't getting on Romo or Rivers' cases are because no one is making them out to be the NFL's Michael Jordan. The reason Vince Young detractors are so negative towards the guy is because all the VY backers are so positive,so certain the guy will be a Hall-of-Famer who revolutionizes the way the position is played.

I'm with Troll in admitting I was wrong to think the guy would be a total bust in the NFL,but at the same time,I'm with Barton and Bit in saying lets not induct the guy into Canton just yet,maybe wait for him to play a few seasons,see if he can keep winning with his style while defensive genuises get some more video of the guy to study. Remember what happened to Chad after 2002. Wasn't he supposed to be the next Joe Montana?

I really do not see people putting VY into the HoF, people are mostly saying he's having a good year for a rookie, and this is true, and that he has all the intangibles you want, and this is also true. Where exactly do you see people putting VY in the HoF? Look at this thread, Barton needlessly comes in and tries to take away VY's accomplishments so far this season. He's not trying to dispute VY's "hype" or anything, because nobody in this thread is really hyping him up. If you don't see that, I really have to think you're blind man. It's just straight up hating here.

Troll admitted he was wrong and said not to put VY into the HoF. That's fine, nobody argued with him. Barton came in here and basically tried to take away all of VY's wins, and claim he sucks and can't beat a good team. So we're supposed to give VY a few years to prove himself before declaring him a good QB, which all of us are in agreement with, but we have to instantly declare that he can't be good already? That's stupid! It works both ways, he hasn't proven to be a terrible QB (actually far from it) and he hasn't proven to be a great QB over a period of time either. He has simply proven that he has been pretty good and has potential. Barton also ignores the game against the Ravens, I guess they have a bad defense now. That's straight up hating. Seriously shutout, do you disagree with what I'm posting right now? It seems pretty clear to me.

[shutout]

I really do not see people putting VY into the HoF, people are mostly saying he's having a good year for a rookie, and this is true, and that he has all the intangibles you want, and this is also true. Where exactly do you see people putting VY in the HoF? Look at this thread, Barton needlessly comes in and tries to take away VY's accomplishments so far this season. He's not trying to dispute VY's "hype" or anything, because nobody in this thread is really hyping him up. If you don't see that, I really have to think you're blind man. It's just straight up hating here.

Troll admitted he was wrong and said not to put VY into the HoF. That's fine, nobody argued with him. Barton came in here and basically tried to take away all of VY's wins, and claim he sucks and can't beat a good team. So we're supposed to give VY a few years to prove himself before declaring him a good QB, which all of us are in agreement with, but we have to instantly declare that he can't be good already? That's stupid! It works both ways, he hasn't proven to be a terrible QB (actually far from it) and he hasn't proven to be a great QB over a period of time either. He has simply proven that he has been pretty good and has potential. Barton also ignores the game against the Ravens, I guess they have a bad defense now. That's straight up hating. Seriously shutout, do you disagree with what I'm posting right now? It seems pretty clear to me.

I'll agree to that,that he is exceeding expecations right now. I've definitely been hearing/reading praise & hype nonstop for the past few weeks on Young,and if I've assumed people defending him in this thread were doing the same,then I apologize. You would have to agree though,that even though it may not be here,Vince Young is getting some serious hype right now from the media and other outlets,maybe more than he deserves. All I'm trying to say,and I think Bit especially hit on it earlier, is that the exact same thing happened with Mike Vick. He went out and won a few games very early on with his legs,and people went nuts for him. Fast foward 5 years,and there are rumors of him being traded and run out of town because teams are adjusting to him and he's not as invincible as he once appeared.

I'll just say this in regards to my personal opinion of him as a QB: I was wrong about the guy,he has done much better already in the NFL than I and many others thought he would. I'm not certain he'll be able to maintain the level he's been playing at the past few weeks for his entire career,as defenses tend to catch up quickly in the NFL. As Bitonti said earlier,he has history working against him. But he is better than I thought he'd be,I have no problem admitting that,and I'll have no problem admitting I was wrong if he does continue his success in the league playing the same style of ball he currently is.

[serphnx]

I'll agree to that,that he is exceeding expecations right now. I've definitely been hearing/reading praise & hype nonstop for the past few weeks on Young,and if I've assumed people defending him in this thread were doing the same,then I apologize. You would have to agree though,that even though it may not be here,Vince Young is getting some serious hype right now from the media and other outlets,maybe more than he deserves. All I'm trying to say,and I think Bit especially hit on it earlier, is that the exact same thing happened with Mike Vick. He went out and won a few games very early on with his legs,and people went nuts for him. Fast foward 5 years,and there are rumors of him being traded and run out of town because teams are adjusting to him and he's not as invincible as he once appeared.

I'll just say this in regards to my personal opinion of him as a QB: I was wrong about the guy,he has done much better already in the NFL than I and many others thought he would. I'm not certain he'll be able to maintain the level he's been playing at the past few weeks for his entire career,as defenses tend to catch up quickly in the NFL. As Bitonti said earlier,he has history working against him. But he is better than I thought he'd be,I have no problem admitting that,and I'll have no problem admitting I was wrong if he does continue his success in the league playing the same style of ball he currently is.

I think we are in agreement, and I also may have been a bit harsh on Barton. From your post, I think both he and you must have been responding to hearing hype elsewhere, and then misinterpreting those of us that posted here as hyping VY beyond what he is.

I don't think he's like Vick actually, at least in terms of running ability. I am actually in agreement with Barton that he is not that fast. VY is going to be VY and not someone else, however, I always thought he was more in the mold of a Steve Young or Donovan McNabb than a Mike Vick. His passing needs to get better, but for a rookie what he has done so far is fine, and he has shown flashes of passing ability thus far, so I don't see how anyone can say he can't beat a good team or can't develop into a good QB. I don't think barton closes the book on him though, he just seemed to be discounting him a bit too much, as I said, he did okay against the Ravens, and he had a very good passing day against the Giants in addition to that. He's just a rookie, give him another year or 2 to see how his passing develops. Steve Young didn't develop overnight either, it took awhile.

[PakiJet]

I think we are in agreement, and I also may have been a bit harsh on Barton. From your post, I think both he and you must have been responding to hearing hype elsewhere, and then misinterpreting those of us that posted here as hyping VY beyond what he is.

I don't think he's like Vick actually, at least in terms of running ability. I am actually in agreement with Barton that he is not that fast. VY is going to be VY and not someone else, however, I always thought he was more in the mold of a Steve Young or Donovan McNabb than a Mike Vick. His passing needs to get better, but for a rookie what he has done so far is fine, and he has shown flashes of passing ability thus far, so I don't see how anyone can say he can't beat a good team or can't develop into a good QB. I don't think barton closes the book on him though, he just seemed to be discounting him a bit too much, as I said, he did okay against the Ravens, and he had a very good passing day against the Giants in addition to that. He's just a rookie, give him another year or 2 to see how his passing develops. Steve Young didn't develop overnight either, it took awhile.

man I wanted the Jets to move up and draft Vince Young so bad.......wed have a great athleate if vince was here in NY

[The Troll]

I would like to point out that I am in no way saying that Vince Young is gonna revolutionize anything. All I'm saying is that he has been way better than I thought he was gonna be.

I still don't think a QB like VY can win a championship. The only way he can do that is to become a better pure passer.

[PatsFanTX]

I still don't think a QB like VY can win a championship. The only way he can do that is to become a better pure passer.

And you are absolutely correct.

[serphnx]

I would like to point out that I am in no way saying that Vince Young is gonna revolutionize anything. All I'm saying is that he has been way better than I thought he was gonna be.

I still don't think a QB like VY can win a championship. The only way he can do that is to become a better pure passer.

I am in complete agreement. When you can rely on Vince young to go out there and complete 58% of his passes for over 200 yards a game, no INTs, and maybe a TD or 2, with the capabiliy of throwing 3-4 in a game, then he will be a QB that can win a championship. As he is now, he can not do this. He has basically exceeded expectations for a rookie. But how many rookies can you expect to win a championship? None. I'm going to give him a few years before I say he can never win a championship.

[Barton]

I would like to point out that I am in no way saying that Vince Young is gonna revolutionize anything. All I'm saying is that he has been way better than I thought he was gonna be.

I still don't think a QB like VY can win a championship. The only way he can do that is to become a better pure passer.

He has exceeded my expectations as well, just not as a passer.

He had a very good passing game vs the Giants, thats it. You can check his numbers, more ints than TDs. Again, he's a rookie, and he is getiting the wins. But he's starting to get alot of hype which I just dont see it being completely deserved. You can bring up that Ravens game where he had a 50% comp, 1 int and zero TDs all you want, or his 3 INT 1 TD performance vs the jags. 2 tuff defenses.

I just wanna see alot more come from his passing game before I get off my stance that he was/is a crappy passer.

[Sharrow]

Well, he's basically saying Jaws analysis of him is off. Patrick Ramsey hasn't been given a decent shot in his career, but if you don't analyze him with a lot of upside, obviously you won't be giving him that shot. That is where PeterNorth is. A lot of people had VY analysed really badly too...like you!!! haha, had to get that in Troll.

Anyway, I do question a lot of what Jaws said. In terms of intangibles, I do not think Clemens is better. The height is definitely a concern, he is only about a half inch taller than Bollinger, and we know how that worked out. His arm is maybe a little better than Leinarts, and that probably isn't good enough. He has a tendency to have balls sail on him, and his deep ball is not very good. His strength is supposed to be from the neck up, but if that is the case one questions why he, not Pennington, did not start this season from the beginning. If he's basically a shorter Pennington with more mobility and a better arm, you would think he'd have won the job.

I just do not understand the wisdom of drafting a guy high in day 1 and then not starting him in his first year if you drafted him based on smarts and intangibles. You would think a guy drafted for his intelligence would be expected to advance faster than some retard that scored a 6 on the wonderlic, since football requires so much intelligence at the QB position. If the retard can start from game 5 or whatever it was, you'd think the genius would start from game 1. Or do you guys want to take back all the frankly retarded comments on the wunderlich?

For all intents and purposes, I think Mangini doesn't think Clemens is going to be any good, and probably drafted him as a fail-safe option if Pennington got injured again. He probably expected more for Clemens or projected him to be a career backup. You'd have to think that from gameplanning and shutting Pennington down so often as a defensive coordinator, he'd not have any faith in the guy, or he thought he could overcome those problems. I think it's clear now that Mangini's defensive schemes weren't overly complicated and specialized in stopping Pennington, but that quite frankly most of the NFL can scheme and execute the same way. I really wish I could get in Mangini's head right now and know what he's thinking. I'm sure he has security for at least another 2 years, but this is the NY market, and you never know.

Saying that because Clemens didn't get the starting job over Pennington means that he won't be as good as VY is like saying that Kerry Collins is the same as Pennington. Problem is that he isn't the same, he's the exact opposite.

[DireJet38]

the Young lovers might not realize this by watching him but he's not even all that fast as an athlete. He's not as fast as Vick who was snagged by Adalius Thomas and broke his leg.

Sooner or later Young will get hurt or at least banged up... we are in the honeymoon of Vince Young just wait until good defenses start game planning him in the playoffs it will be a whole nother story.

Fast enough.

And big enough.

He makes Vick looks small.

He's Roethlisberger with a better set of wheels.

[DireJet38]

maybe I am a nerd

only a nerd would know that the following QBs were said would revolutionize the game with their feet - and none of them did anything until they became passers first.

Roger Staubach

John Elway

Steve Young

Randall Cunningham

Donovan Mcnabb

Mike Vick

We've seen this show before. Maybe that makes me a nerd, but until Vince Young does something against a good defense I will err on the side of history.

Fair Enough.

I'll err on the side of Vince.

[shutout]

Fair Enough.

I'll err on the side of Vince.

Perfect...that means no matter what happens,someone can (and probably will) bump this thread and say "I told ya so!";)

[PeterNorth09]

Vince Young will continue to make all of you bashers like Barton and Bitonti look stupid. He is playing excellent as a rookie QB on a bad team.

[DireJet38]

Perfect...that means no matter what happens,someone can (and probably will) bump this thread and say "I told ya so!";)

Nah, I don't need vindication.

I'm not that desperate.