Trouble in BBQtown

[nyjunc]

less talent?? are you freaking nuts? gonzo, LJ, trent green-- come on man. you're just saying the jets have talent because mangenius got them to over-achieve last year without a running back no less. at the beginning of last season everyone said the jets were one of the least talented teams when the reality is herm had them underperforming and now mangini has them overperforming. the virtually identical "talentless" chiefs O was setting offensive recrods 2 years ago. don't give me that bull****.

KC had a better receving TE and better RB, that's it. We had the mch better QB and the much better WRs.

Who cares about scoring records? would you rather score more and miss the layoffs or score less and make it? and this O was not comparable to that O from a few years ago. They didn't have half as of an OL, Gonzo is getting old, Green(who was never great) was hurt and they had absolutely no WRs. Tim Dwight would have started in KC and he was our 4th best WR.

[nyjunc]

And last i checked the goal wasnt to make hte playoffs, but to win a super bowl. And you dont win super bowls with the OLINE the Chiefs will be sporting come the second week of september.

In order to get to a SB you have to make the playoffs, right? Did they have a better chance in '98,'99,'00,'01,'02,'04, '05 or 2006?

[nyjunc]

Speak for yourself. I knew we were going nowhere with Herm very early. Gave him a pass in 2001 cause he was a rookie, but when I saw us come out of the gates unprepared and out of shape for the start of the 2002 season and when I saw that Herm still couldnt tell time I knew he was hopeless.

If you want to win 9, 10 games and get embarrassed int he playoffs herm is your guy. If you want to win a super bowl look elsewhere.

Unprepared? We lost had 4/5 of our Ol either out or playing hurt, Curtis was hurt in the 1st game and had less than 100 yards total after 4 weeks, the D had 6 new starters. Once we started to get healthy we took off. So the slow start was Herm's fault but th 5-0 start in '04 was all b/c of the sched, right?

[nyjunc]

nyjunc, are you herm edwards' cousin or something? it would even be funnier if you were actually herm edwards trying to salvage his name.

The truth is I don't love Herm as a HC, i think he's a good but never will be great, BUT I have to try tos top the flow of misinformation. The facts are he too over a Jets team that had made NE playoff in 9 years and missed 2straight years thn he guided us to 3 in 4 years something that had NEVER been done in our history. he did this after 3 coaches walked out on us b/c they didn't think they coud win here. I appreciate that he had the guts to take the job and tha he had success. It wasn't his fault we play in the much tougher conf and that we had a dynasty team in our division- even w/ that we made the playoffs 3 of 5 years(only missed in years we lost Chad) and won a div title- the only non-Pats div title since 2001.

[Sperm Edwards]

KC had a better receving TE and better RB, that's it. We had the mch better QB and the much better WRs.

Who cares about scoring records? would you rather score more and miss the layoffs or score less and make it? and this O was not comparable to that O from a few years ago. They didn't have half as of an OL, Gonzo is getting old, Green(who was never great) was hurt and they had absolutely no WRs. Tim Dwight would have started in KC and he was our 4th best WR.

Hate to break it to you but last year Huard was a lot better than Pennington. Only an apologist would argue something so absurd as saying Chad was "much" better than Huard last year. If Chad went half a season with 11 TD's and 1 INT, those stupid Chad vs Brady debates would have begun again. But since Pennington was given a $64M contract & Huard was a career backup, it gets dismissed as though Huard was playing at a low-to-mediocre level. And Herm benched him anyway to bring back the veteran who then at times looked as dizzy as the moment he woke up from that hit.

But prior to that? Green had over 16,000 yards & almost 100 TD's over the past 4 seasons with no WR's any teams wish they had. Chad has 72 in his career playing with Chrebet, Coles, Moss, and Cotchery. Even McCareins had 7 TD's the year before Chad got to him. He has 7 TD's in the 3 years since. Green may not have been in the Manning/Brady league of phenom QB's, but he was easily a top-10 QB. Could you honestly see Chad throwing 8 TD's in a season to Leslie Shepherd, Marc Boerigter, or Eddie Kennison? Right.

If Herm took over as HC of the Patriots in 2000, no one would know who Tom Brady is.

And by the way, YES. The 5-0 start was only because of the schedule. The biggest win margin was an 8-point victory vs a 2-win team. Really, how can anyone see a pattern in 5 of 6 seasons and use the one exception as a valid argument to the contrary. That's like pointing to one good game from Kimo last year and suggesting he wasn't a liability the 5 games surrounding it.

[nyjunc]

Hate to break it to you but last year Huard was a lot better than Pennington. Only an apologist would argue something so absurd as saying Chad was "much" better than Huard last year. If Chad went half a season with 11 TD's and 1 INT, those stupid Chad vs Brady debates would have begun again. But since Pennington was given a $64M contract & Huard was a career backup, it gets dismissed as though Huard was playing at a low-to-mediocre level. And Herm benched him anyway to bring back the veteran who then at times looked as dizzy as the moment he woke up from that hit.

But prior to that? Green had over 16,000 yards & almost 100 TD's over the past 4 seasons with no WR's any teams wish they had. Chad has 72 in his career playing with Chrebet, Coles, Moss, and Cotchery. Even McCareins had 7 TD's the year before Chad got to him. He has 7 TD's in the 3 years since. Green may not have been in the Manning/Brady league of phenom QB's, but he was easily a top-10 QB. Could you honestly see Chad throwing 8 TD's in a season to Leslie Shepherd, Marc Boerigter, or Eddie Kennison? Right.

If Herm took over as HC of the Patriots in 2000, no one would know who Tom Brady is.

And by the way, YES. The 5-0 start was only because of the schedule. The biggest win margin was an 8-point victory vs a 2-win team. Really, how can anyone see a pattern in 5 of 6 seasons and use the one exception as a valid argument to the contrary. That's like pointing to one good game from Kimo last year and suggesting he wasn't a liability the 5 games surrounding it.

#s are great but it's about winning, Chad was in a new system, w/ a building OL,. no running game and coming off 2 shoulder surgeries. Chad wasALOT better than hi #s showed and he was the biggest reason we once again won 10 and made the playoffs.

Green had all those #s and 1 PO appearance and ZERO playoff wins. I'l take the team wins and playoff wins over individual #s any day.

A healthy Chad is easily top 10, he was top 2 in 2002.

Cincy scored a late TD to mak it look clopser, SD scored some garbage time Tds late to make it look closer. We beat 12 win SD(for their only home loss of the season) and beat 9 win Buffalo.

In 2001 we started 3-3, that's not poor, in '02 we were beat up and started slow2, in '03 we lost Chad and started slow, in '04 we were healthy and started 6-1, in '05 we were beat up and started 1-2. Under parcell we started 1-2 in '97, 0-2 and 2-3 in '98, 1-6 in '99.

[KSJets]

Cool, the stat-whore is back. How's that website for your idol coming?

[Sperm Edwards]

#s are great but it's about winning, Chad was in a new system, w/ a building OL,. no running game and coming off 2 shoulder surgeries. Chad wasALOT better than hi #s showed and he was the biggest reason we once again won 10 and made the playoffs.

Green had all those #s and 1 PO appearance and ZERO playoff wins. I'l take the team wins and playoff wins over individual #s any day.

A healthy Chad is easily top 10, he was top 2 in 2002.

Cincy scored a late TD to mak it look clopser, SD scored some garbage time Tds late to make it look closer. We beat 12 win SD(for their only home loss of the season) and beat 9 win Buffalo.

In 2001 we started 3-3, that's not poor, in '02 we were beat up and started slow2, in '03 we lost Chad and started slow, in '04 we were healthy and started 6-1, in '05 we were beat up and started 1-2. Under parcell we started 1-2 in '97, 0-2 and 2-3 in '98, 1-6 in '99.

2002 is ancient history. He also benefited from the league not knowing him as well. It bears no relevance to 4+ years (and two shoulder surgeries) later. Know who else were top-10 QB's in 2002? Drew Bledsoe, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Daunte Culpepper, Aaron Brooks, and Jeff Garcia. What does that have to do with 2006-2007? Nothing. Chad is not a top-10 QB.

In 2001 we were 1-2 before we were 3-3. Nice try.

In 2002 one of the main positions we were beat up in was HB and Herm made no changes.

In 2003 losing Chad was no excuse for being that bad. We didn't lose him after the season started with no real QB to back him up.

In 2004 the schedule was the easiest I can remember, particularly to start the season.

In 2005 we started out slow before we sustained one injury.

I notice you called Herm's 1-2 start in 2001 a "3-3" start but you then called

Parcells' 4-2 start in '97 a "1-2" start,

Parcels' 2-2 (and 3-3) start in '98 an "0-2" start,

and are all too forgiving of Herm's 6-10 season with Vinny/Chad while dismissing Parcells' 8-8 season with Mirer/Lucas.

In essence, you are trying to win this argument with smoke & mirrors.

[nyjunc]

Cool, the stat-whore is back. How's that website for your idol coming?

You are still here? I thought you would hide your head in shame after I torhed yourweak arguments.

[Arsis]

There was trouble in K.C. from the minute they hired Sperm Headwards.

[KSJets]

You are still here? I thought you would hide your head in shame after I torhed yourweak arguments.

Torched my arguments? I think you're confusing me with someone else, because all you've done since coming to JN is prove that you're nothing more than a Herm apologist that tries to spin any stat in his favor, all while coming across as an arrogant, stuck-up, egotistical prick.

You spew the same stats over and over, but never look past the stats to see that any stat, and I mean ANY stat, can be manipulated to prove any point. Maybe if you're Herm bias wasn't so strong, you would acknowledge other people can have an opinion that differs from you.

I don't like Herm. I soured on him during his last season when I finally saw how clueless he was as a HC. You love him. That's fine with me. My issue with you is that you come into any thread that has a anti-Herm tone with your holier-than-thou attitude and try to tell other people their opinion is wrong.

I actually enjoy seeing you debate with other people because you believe so strongly in your opinion. That's fine. But don't you dare tell me or anyone else that our opinions are wrong. That just makes you look like a dick.

[nyjunc]

2002 is ancient history. He also benefited from the league not knowing him as well. It bears no relevance to 4+ years (and two shoulder surgeries) later. Know who else were top-10 QB's in 2002? Drew Bledsoe, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Daunte Culpepper, Aaron Brooks, and Jeff Garcia. What does that have to do with 2006-2007? Nothing. Chad is not a top-10 QB.

In 2001 we were 1-2 before we were 3-3. Nice try.

In 2002 one of the main positions we were beat up in was HB and Herm made no changes.

In 2003 losing Chad was no excuse for being that bad. We didn't lose him after the season started with no real QB to back him up.

In 2004 the schedule was the easiest I can remember, particularly to start the season.

In 2005 we started out slow before we sustained one injury.

I notice you called Herm's 1-2 start in 2001 a "3-3" start but you then called

Parcells' 4-2 start in '97 a "1-2" start,

Parcels' 2-2 (and 3-3) start in '98 an "0-2" start,

and are all too forgiving of Herm's 6-10 season with Vinny/Chad while dismissing Parcells' 8-8 season with Mirer/Lucas.

In essence, you are trying to win this argument with smoke & mirrors.

Oh yes the league didn't know Chad, so you don't think soeone like belichick had any idea what he was going up against in Week 16 after seeing 11 weeks worth of game film? and obviously Dungy didn't get the 13 weeks of game film, only after his 14th game that year did a team actually watch tape- congract to oakland for doing their homework.

Chad is absolutely a top 10 QB right now and as long as he is healthy. Name 10 QBs better?

In 2001 we were also 3-2 before we were 3-3 sowha is your point?

The Ol was the biggest problem, not the RB and Jordan had chances but in that 4 game losing streak he averaged 2.7 YPC. Maybe if he showed them something at that point he would have had more carries? By the way, my biggest problem w/ that staff was the underutilization of lamont but judging how lamont has failed as a feature back maybe they knew something we didn't?

In the first 3 games of that losing streak Curtis ran the ball 28 times, lamont ran it 17 so Lamont had chances. In the 4th game Curtis got it going rushing 21 times for 119 yds.

We lost Chad a week before the season started- that was a HUGE blow then we lost a close game to Wash, a semi-close game to Mia and a close game to NE. Our season was basically over before Chad had a chance to play. he brought us back for a moment but we coulsdn't sustain. We also got very old on D and as much as I like Badway he takes the fall forthat one but he got the fixed in a hurry for 2004.

In '04, how can a sched get any easier when you play a 12 win team and a 9 win team in 5 games? and that 12 win team didn't lose anothe home game the rest of the year. Do you think that stretch was easier or our end of season stretch in 2006?

In '05 we lost barton, Mawae, Fabini early along w/Chad who wasplaying hurt anyway, our best STs layer(McClover) was lost in preseason, Ellis and Roberson were playing hurt all year, Curtis was hurt early.

Did you notice that we were 1-2 after 3 and should have been 2-1 if Chrebet holds on to that TD pass from Chad? things fell apart after that as we then played most of the year w/ a 4th string QB, a 3rd strng RB, we had 1 OL start and end the season in the same position, we lost our best defensive player from '04(Barton), our best STer, Ellis, Robertson,...

I noticed you called the '01 start 3-3 when we started 3-2? What is your point? We were actually 5-2 in '97 but as was thecase in '00 we lost in week 17 w/ a chance to get to the playoffs UNLIKE 2001 and 2002 under Herm.

I give Parcells some slack for '99 but you guys don't for '03 and '05 so for this discussion everything has to be equal.

[nyjunc]

Torched my arguments? I think you're confusing me with someone else, because all you've done since coming to JN is prove that you're nothing more than a Herm apologist that tries to spin any stat in his favor, all while coming across as an arrogant, stuck-up, egotistical prick.

You spew the same stats over and over, but never look past the stats to see that any stat, and I mean ANY stat, can be manipulated to prove any point. Maybe if you're Herm bias wasn't so strong, you would acknowledge other people can have an opinion that differs from you.

I don't like Herm. I soured on him during his last season when I finally saw how clueless he was as a HC. You love him. That's fine with me. My issue with you is that you come into any thread that has a anti-Herm tone with your holier-than-thou attitude and try to tell other people their opinion is wrong.

I actually enjoy seeing you debate with other people because you believe so strongly in your opinion. That's fine. But don't you dare tell me or anyone else that our opinions are wrong. That just makes you look like a dick.

My mistake, I did have you confused w/ someone else- someone who actually tried to ****er my arguments but instead you brought nothing to the debate. When you actually provide some reasoning for your opinions I'll take you more seriously.

If you read my argument it wasn't all on stats, individual stats are PART of the criteria and he failed in that part. Winning is more important and overall he failed in that area too. if you have some info to defend him please post it otherwise don't bother me.

[JetsMan57]

Unprepared? We lost had 4/5 of our Ol either out or playing hurt, Curtis was hurt in the 1st game and had less than 100 yards total after 4 weeks, the D had 6 new starters. Once we started to get healthy we took off. So the slow start was Herm's fault but th 5-0 start in '04 was all b/c of the sched, right?

Yea Curtis was hurt and Herm refused to play LaMont JOrdan which just shows you how stupid the man is.

Thanks for proving my point.

And please spare me with all these injuries we had at the start of 02. Just pop in the tape of the NEw England and Jacksonville game from that year. Two blowouts. If you dont see an unprepared team in those games then you dont know the difference between a screen pass and a screen door.

As for all the new players we had on D in 2002. So thats an excuse for us not playing well, then why didnt our defense suck to start the 2004 season when we had a new DC and 5 new players on the defense? Yea, you're real consistent here.

Just give it up. Please.

[KSJets]

My mistake, I did have you confused w/ someone else- someone who actually tried to ****er my arguments but instead you brought nothing to the debate. When you actually provide some reasoning for your opinions I'll take you more seriously.

If you read my argument it wasn't all on stats, individual stats are PART of the criteria and he failed in that part. Winning is more important and overall he failed in that area too. if you have some info to defend him please post it otherwise don't bother me.

Post all the stats you want, it doesn't change the fact that I don't like him. I didn't have confidence in Herm to lead the Jets in the playoffs. Sure, during the season when they're playing less-talented teams, they can win under him, but I had no faith in the man to come up with a good gameplan against a quality opponent in the playoffs. He proved it again this year with that sad attempt against the Colts.

[Barton]

Top 10 QBs dont have more turnovers than TDs.

BTW, here's 10 off the top of my head that are easily better than Chad.

P.Manning, Brady, Hasselback, Bulger, Palmer, Brees, McNabb, Favre, Roethlisberger, and Rivers.

Not to mention kids like Cutler, Losman, Eli, Romo and vets like Delhomme all of which had better season last year than Chad. And thats a fact, just take a look at their numbers.

If Trent Green is healthy, he's better than Chad too.

[Arsis]

Top 10 QBs dont have more turnovers than TDs.

BTW, here's 10 off the top of my head that are easily better than Chad.

P.Manning, Brady, Hasselback, Bulger, Palmer, Brees, McNabb, Favre, Roethlisberger, and Rivers.

Not to mention kids like Cutler, Losman, Eli, Romo and vets like Delhomme all of which had better season last year than Chad. And thats a fact, just take a look at their numbers.

If Trent Green is healthy, he's better than Chad too.

I'd take mcnabb and roethlisberger off that list, mcnabb is the most injury prone person in the league and r-burger is just a scrub. Eli sucks and is worse than tuisospsosospsopo.

[KSJets]

I'd take mcnabb and roethlisberger off that list, mcnabb is the most injury prone person in the league and r-burger is just a scrub. Eli sucks and is worse than tuisospsosospsopo.

It's hard to find someone more injury-prone than Chad, but I think Donovan has pulled it off

[Arsis]

It's hard to find someone more injury-prone than Chad, but I think Donovan has pulled it off

I agree, mcnabb is the fragile egg of the league, I'm willing to bet he is on the IR by the time we play them this year.

[nyjunc]

Yea Curtis was hurt and Herm refused to play LaMont JOrdan which just shows you how stupid the man is.

Thanks for proving my point.

And please spare me with all these injuries we had at the start of 02. Just pop in the tape of the NEw England and Jacksonville game from that year. Two blowouts. If you dont see an unprepared team in those games then you dont know the difference between a screen pass and a screen door.

As for all the new players we had on D in 2002. So thats an excuse for us not playing well, then why didnt our defense suck to start the 2004 season when we had a new DC and 5 new players on the defense? Yea, you're real consistent here.

Just give it up. Please.

Curti had 28 carries weeks 2-4, lamont 17. Lamont played- the difference in carries wasn't that great but neither produced while at least Curtis had an injury excuse.

Spare you? When banged up early we got crushed by NE 44-7, when healthy we beat them up 30-17 at NE. By the way that game was only a 10-0 game at halftime and things snowballed int he 2nd half. We didn't have the horses at that moment in time to compete or 60 mins. jax was the same deal, we were down just 14-3 at the half. we were beat up at the time.

We had 4 new starters to start 2004: Barton, tongue, Barrett and Coleman. Vilma slid into the starting role after an injury. In 2002 Abe was hurt, rushing back from a knee injury and we had 5 new players and 1 coming off a year off(Ferg). The situations were not cmparable.

[nyjunc]

Post all the stats you want, it doesn't change the fact that I don't like him. I didn't have confidence in Herm to lead the Jets in the playoffs. Sure, during the season when they're playing less-talented teams, they can win under him, but I had no faith in the man to come up with a good gameplan against a quality opponent in the playoffs. He proved it again this year with that sad attempt against the Colts.

I never said you had to like him, you knocked me in the thread- I responded.

[nyjunc]

Top 10 QBs dont have more turnovers than TDs.

BTW, here's 10 off the top of my head that are easily better than Chad.

P.Manning, Brady, Hasselback, Bulger, Palmer, Brees, McNabb, Favre, Roethlisberger, and Rivers.

Not to mention kids like Cutler, Losman, Eli, Romo and vets like Delhomme all of which had better season last year than Chad. And thats a fact, just take a look at their numbers.

If Trent Green is healthy, he's better than Chad too.

When did Chad have more INts than TDs? You mention that then say favre is bettr when Favre when favre the last 2 years has 9 moreINt than TDs. I would give you Ben when he's healty, delhomme is NOT better, Brees has put up great #s but Chad w/ a torn rotator cuff outplayed him in the '04 playoffs and Chad led his team to the same amount of win in a tougher div and conf last year. Hasslebeck and Bulger have the advantage of playing in weak divisions, Mcnabb is good but like Chad has been hurt alot- put Chad's Jets in the NFC nd he has more success than any of those NFC QBs.

You are seriously putting Cutler close to Chad when he's done nothing? Eli has been a joke, Romo was good for 3-4 games, Delhomme had one great playoff run in a weak NFC. Trent Green has NEVER won a playoff game.

[Barton]

I'd take mcnabb and roethlisberger off that list, mcnabb is the most injury prone person in the league and r-burger is just a scrub. Eli sucks and is worse than tuisospsosospsopo.

You'd still take any of those guys over Chad though. right?

Where they are slotted in the top 10 or 15 in the league is irrelevant. The point is, Chad is not a top 10 QB. He's not even a top 15 QB.

[JetsMan57]

Curti had 28 carries weeks 2-4, lamont 17. Lamont played- the difference in carries wasn't that great but neither produced while at least Curtis had an injury excuse..

Point is Curtis should have sat a game or two and Herm refused to do so cause he was on a mission to pad the "Warriors" stats.

Spare you? When banged up early we got crushed by NE 44-7, when healthy we beat them up 30-17 at NE. By the way that game was only a 10-0 game at halftime and things snowballed int he 2nd half. We didn't have the horses at that moment in time to compete or 60 mins. jax was the same deal, we were down just 14-3 at the half. we were beat up at the time.

Um, we had two injuries on offense in 2002 to start the season. Martin and Dave Szott. On defense Abraham hurt his knee. Pretty much everybody else was healthy. Keep making things up though.

And If you want to play the injury card Tom Brady played the 2nd game in 2002 with a bum shoulder. I guess that discredits our win then.

Let alone the fact that Penningotn started the 2nd game that year.

We had 4 new starters to start 2004: Barton, tongue, Barrett and Coleman. Vilma slid into the starting role after an injury. In 2002 Abe was hurt, rushing back from a knee injury and we had 5 new players and 1 coming off a year off(Ferg). The situations were not cmparable

Lets go over this shall we? Vilma entered the starting line in the first half of week 2. So lets see

Barton, Vilma, Barrett, Coleman, Tongue: Thats 5 new starters according to my calculations.

Again, why were we so bad in 2002 with all these new defensive starters but played so well in 2004 to start the season? Your Abe knee injury stuff is nonsense. We couldnt stop the run and Abe was never a good run defender so that wont cut it.

Answer the question. I know the answer. You just wont say it because the real reason why is what you been protecting Herm from all along and you cant contradict yourself. I've cornered you in.

Im waiting.....

[Barton]

When did Chad have more INts than TDs? You mention that then say favre is bettr when Favre when favre the last 2 years has 9 moreINt than TDs. I would give you Ben when he's healty, delhomme is NOT better, Brees has put up great #s but Chad w/ a torn rotator cuff outplayed him in the '04 playoffs and Chad led his team to the same amount of win in a tougher div and conf last year. Hasslebeck and Bulger have the advantage of playing in weak divisions, Mcnabb is good but like Chad has been hurt alot- put Chad's Jets in the NFC nd he has more success than any of those NFC QBs.

You are seriously putting Cutler close to Chad when he's done nothing? Eli has been a joke, Romo was good for 3-4 games, Delhomme had one great playoff run in a weak NFC. Trent Green has NEVER won a playoff game.

Yeah if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

BTW, I didnt say Chad had more INTs than TDs (17-16 there, close but not more) but he had 4 more turnovers + his 16 INTs, which is 20 turnovers - more turnovers (20) than touchdowns (17).

Favre rebounded last year and he's a HOF QB. Not what he once was, but still better than Chad. Delhomme isnt the answer for the Panthers long term either, they need to replace him soon, but he did have a better season last year than Chad did.

If Eli Manning as a rookie thru his 3rd year starting in the league is a joke when he puts up 54 TDs - 44 INTs, ---- then WTF is Chad when in his 5th thru 7th year in the league he puts up 35 TDs - 28 INTs??

Eli is better than Chad, and can still improve as he's just now entering his 3rd full season as the starter.

[nyjunc]

Point is Curtis should have sat a game or two and Herm refused to do so cause he was on a mission to pad the "Warriors" stats.

Um, we had two injuries on offense in 2002 to start the season. Martin and Dave Szott. On defense Abraham hurt his knee. Pretty much everybody else was healthy. Keep making things up though.

And If you want to play the injury card Tom Brady played the 2nd game in 2002 with a bum shoulder. I guess that discredits our win then.

Let alone the fact that Penningotn started the 2nd game that year.

Lets go over this shall we? Vilma entered the starting line in the first half of week 2. So lets see

Barton, Vilma, Barrett, Coleman, Tongue: Thats 5 new starters according to my calculations.

Again, why were we so bad in 2002 with all these new defensive starters but played so well in 2004 to start the season? Your Abe knee injury stuff is nonsense. We couldnt stop the run and Abe was never a good run defender so that wont cut it.

Answer the question. I know the answer. You just wont say it because the real reason why is what you been protecting Herm from all along and you cant contradict yourself. I've cornered you in.

Im waiting.....

I agree w/ you, Curtis should have sat down a week or 2 but Curtis plays through pain and he wanted to play BUT Curtis was STILL more effective than Lamont as Curtis averaged 3.3 YPC on 28 carries while lamont averaged 2.8 YPC on 17 carries rom weeks 2-4.

We had 4/5 of our Ol either out or playing w/ injuries. mawae, Fabini and Thomas were all playing through significant pain while Szott was out until December.

The difference btw saying Brady was hurt and our O had injuries is we stunk for 4 weeks while Brady came out and led his team to a win the next week.

4 new starters to start the season and Vilma had already been playing when he started for the first time in week 3.

I don't know exactly why we sucked early in 2002 other than new starters and our best defensive player hobbling but we also had much better talent in 2004.

My Abe knee injury stuff is nonsense? Sure he wasn't great against the run but he was still our best defender- our only game changer on D and why did our run D get so much better as the season went on as Abe got healthier and the team got comfortable w/ each other? Not every issue is black and white, sometims it takes players time to come together while other times they get it from the start. In '04 we did struggle eary on D as our O carried us early but they o it going quickly while in '02 and last year it took half a season to get it together.

Why did our D stink the first half of last year when we had almost the identical defensive roster we had playing in January of 2005? If you are blamin Herm for '02 I guess you blame Mangini for '06?

[nyjunc]

Yeah if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

BTW, I didnt say Chad had more INTs than TDs (17-16 there, close but not more) but he had 4 more turnovers + his 16 INTs, which is 20 turnovers - more turnovers (20) than touchdowns (17).

Favre rebounded last year and he's a HOF QB. Not what he once was, but still better than Chad. Delhomme isnt the answer for the Panthers long term either, they need to replace him soon, but he did have a better season last year than Chad did.

If Eli Manning as a rookie thru his 3rd year starting in the league is a joke when he puts up 54 TDs - 44 INTs, ---- then WTF is Chad when in his 5th thru 7th year in the league he puts up 35 TDs - 28 INTs??

Eli is better than Chad, and can still improve as he's just now entering his 3rd full season as the starter.

favre rebounded by having an even TD-INT ratio and leading his team to 8 wins in a crappy division.

Delhomme had such a great year that he led carolina to 8-8 in a weak division w/ a better running game.

In Chad's FIRST year starting he led the NFL in passing. Eli hasn't won a playoff game and has 2 TDs and 4 INTs despite the great offensive talent around him playing in an inferior conference.

Chad has been hurt a bit, don't you think that has affected his #s?

Eli is better than Chad? Do you watch football? W/ the offensive talent he has had in a weak div and conference he has yet to win a playoff game and was SHUTOUT in one at HOME!

[JetsMan57]

Why did our D stink the first half of last year when we had almost the identical defensive roster we had playing in January of 2005? If you are blamin Herm for '02 I guess you blame Mangini for '06?

Maybe because we played the 3-4 last year and the whole unit was used to playing the 4-3? And our defense sucked in January 2005 too.

I didnt respond to the rest of your stuff because we can go on all day.

[nyjunc]

Maybe because we played the 3-4 last year and the whole unit was used to playing the 4-3? And our defense sucked in January 2005 too.

I didnt respond to the rest of your stuff because we can go on all day.

our defense sucked in January 2005? We held SD to 17 points(should have ben 10) and Pitt to 17 in regulation- that's sucking?

[Arsis]

You'd still take any of those guys over Chad though. right?

Where they are slotted in the top 10 or 15 in the league is irrelevant. The point is, Chad is not a top 10 QB. He's not even a top 15 QB.

I'd take r-burger over chad, cause he's young and has upside but mcnabb is older and in injury prone. I hate Eli, I think he's only here cause his last name is manning, but with him it's 50/50 cause his last name is manning and there is a chance he might turn out like his brother/father.

[Barton]

favre rebounded by having an even TD-INT ratio and leading his team to 8 wins in a crappy division.

Delhomme had such a great year that he led carolina to 8-8 in a weak division w/ a better running game.

In Chad's FIRST year starting he led the NFL in passing. Eli hasn't won a playoff game and has 2 TDs and 4 INTs despite the great offensive talent around him playing in an inferior conference.

Chad has been hurt a bit, don't you think that has affected his #s?

Eli is better than Chad? Do you watch football? W/ the offensive talent he has had in a weak div and conference he has yet to win a playoff game and was SHUTOUT in one at HOME!

Win-Loss records dont make one QB better than the other, esp just in 1 single season over the course of their careers. With that arguement, I guess Chad Pennington is better than Carson Palmer because the Jets were 10-6 last year and the Bengals were 8-8. No logic there, flawed arguement.

I could care less if Chads injurys have affected his #'s. I'm not gonna cry over spilled milk and say "but if Chad was healthy yadayada" Bottom line is, we have been left with a raggedy armed QB since his rotator cuff injury in Buffalo - 28 TDs to 26 INTs since that point.

As for Eli, he's only now entering his 3rd full year, he still can get better.

[Arsis]

As for Eli, he's only now entering his 3rd full year, he still can get better.

He can, but I don't think he will, I think his problem is his team and his mentality and mental toughness. Plus he has some ****ty teammates who quit on him and don't show up to practice with him when he asks. If he catches on with another team, a new coach and some weapons who are *******s then I think he has a chance to be great.

[SeniorFlaJet]

He can, but I don't think he will, I think his problem is his team and his mentality and mental toughness. Plus he has some ****ty teammates who quit on him and don't show up to practice with him when he asks. If he catches on with another team, a new coach and some weapons who are *******s then I think he has a chance to be great.

I think the problem may be in his leadership abilities. Every year his receivers

do what they want as far as where they workout even if he asks them to

work out with him. The Giants seem to be the only team that has that problem.

As far as his chances to be great with another team that remains to be seen

because this is the year for both him and Coughlin.

[Arsis]

I think the problem may be in his leadership abilities. Every year his receivers

do what they want as far as where they workout even if he asks them to

work out with him. The Giants seem to be the only team that has that problem.

As far as his chances to be great with another team that remains to be seen

because this is the year for both him and Coughlin.

Yeah, but you get what I'm saying, I think he has the worst possible situation for him with the Giants and he could benefit from a change in scenery.

[JetsMan57]

our defense sucked in January 2005? We held SD to 17 points(should have ben 10) and Pitt to 17 in regulation- that's sucking?

I got mixed up. I thought you meant January 2006.

Even though, your point holds less merit as we didnt have Jason Ferguson last year AND we were playing a totally different system.