Trouble in BBQtown

[nyjunc]

Win-Loss records dont make one QB better than the other, esp just in 1 single season over the course of their careers. With that arguement, I guess Chad Pennington is better than Carson Palmer because the Jets were 10-6 last year and the Bengals were 8-8. No logic there, flawed arguement.

I could care less if Chads injurys have affected his #'s. I'm not gonna cry over spilled milk and say "but if Chad was healthy yadayada" Bottom line is, we have been left with a raggedy armed QB since his rotator cuff injury in Buffalo - 28 TDs to 26 INTs since that point.

As for Eli, he's only now entering his 3rd full year, he still can get better.

So you think favre, who had worse #s and led his team to less wins in a crappy division was better than Chad ast ear? I didn't say every time a team has more wins their QB is better but when the situations are similar and one wins more then that tips the scales.

I don't care about the individual #s, since his injury we have been in the playoffs twice and won a road playoff game for the 3rd time in our history. That means more to me than his individual #s.

[nyjunc]

I got mixed up. I thought you meant January 2006.

Even though, your point holds less merit as we didnt have Jason Ferguson last year AND we were playing a totally different system.

The differnce from our playoff D in '04 and lat year as far as personnell was we didn't have ferguson but we had Rhodes instead of Tongue ad Dyson instead of Donne Abe. That's an upgrade at 2 of the spots and HUGE upgrade at the SS spot so we had talent.

[Bugg]

I started this thread merely because it shows that Whitlock-a guy who played OL in college, knows the game a bit and welcomed Edwards like a conquering hero-no longer thinks his program makes any sense. But UNC has decided instead tp keep stabbing the windmill, even as his hero is in the process of being discredited again. And like Whitlock noted, anyone watching the COlts/Chiefs playoff game would be hard-pressed to understand the Chiefs offseason and draft, which were devoid of any OL of use. And we saw the same thing here too-more draft and FA DL and DB guys than you could ever play, and then get the 7th round Marco Cvakas and free agent Dave Szotts and hope that works. And it simply doesn't.

Meantime Junc, carry on. You're prety much writing this thread by yourself.

[Sperm Edwards]

We're getting off topic here with Pennington:

Herm is human garbage & is only beginning the collapse in KC.

Only a Hermapologist would argue that the 10-6 record KC missed the playoffs with in 2005 - the team that Herm took over - was less impressive than the 9-7 record Herm made the playoffs with.

A once great & dangerous offense, with as good of a RB as there is in the game, two pro-bowlers on the OL, a pro-bowl TE, 2 good QB's at his disposal...and they couldn't get a first down until the 3rd quarter vs a team that had the worst rush defense in NFL history. While the coach just stands there on the sideline with that friggin' confused look that Jets fans are all too familiar with.

It finally silenced him a little - until his buddies went to the superbowl. Then Hermie was there for all available "I told you so" interviews to somehow attempt to have Smith & Dungy's SuperBowl success rub off on his current performance simply b/c they all run a cover-2.

Yeah, Herm's an outstanding coach. I'm sure his current players are convinced that he's the man with all the answers instead of just the buffoon with all the chicken wings.

[BP]

We're getting off topic here with Pennington:

Herm is human garbage & is only beginning the collapse in KC.

Only a Hermapologist would argue that the 10-6 record KC missed the playoffs with in 2005 - the team that Herm took over - was less impressive than the 9-7 record Herm made the playoffs with.

A once great & dangerous offense, with as good of a RB as there is in the game, two pro-bowlers on the OL, a pro-bowl TE, 2 good QB's at his disposal...and they couldn't get a first down until the 3rd quarter vs a team that had the worst rush defense in NFL history. While the coach just stands there on the sideline with that friggin' confused look that Jets fans are all too familiar with.

It finally silenced him a little - until his buddies went to the superbowl. Then Hermie was there for all available "I told you so" interviews to somehow attempt to have Smith & Dungy's SuperBowl success rub off on his current performance simply b/c they all run a cover-2.

Yeah, Herm's an outstanding coach. I'm sure his current players are convinced that he's the man with all the answers instead of just the buffoon with all the chicken wings.

POTW nom! and a great new phrase for nyjunc and rjensen!!!

[nyjunc]

I started this thread merely because it shows that Whitlock-a guy who played OL in college, knows the game a bit and welcomed Edwards like a conquering hero-no longer thinks his program makes any sense. But UNC has decided instead tp keep stabbing the windmill, even as his hero is in the process of being discredited again. And like Whitlock noted, anyone watching the COlts/Chiefs playoff game would be hard-pressed to understand the Chiefs offseason and draft, which were devoid of any OL of use. And we saw the same thing here too-more draft and FA DL and DB guys than you could ever play, and then get the 7th round Marco Cvakas and free agent Dave Szotts and hope that works. And it simply doesn't.

Meantime Junc, carry on. You're prety much writing this thread by yourself.

I just post facts, you guys have a biased view about the guy and I try to balance it out by actually posting facts. I was tired of the Herm debates 2 years ago so obviously it's annouying now but I have to post the truth so people don't read your posts and get influenced by misinformation.

[nyjunc]

We're getting off topic here with Pennington:

Herm is human garbage & is only beginning the collapse in KC.

Only a Hermapologist would argue that the 10-6 record KC missed the playoffs with in 2005 - the team that Herm took over - was less impressive than the 9-7 record Herm made the playoffs with.

A once great & dangerous offense, with as good of a RB as there is in the game, two pro-bowlers on the OL, a pro-bowl TE, 2 good QB's at his disposal...and they couldn't get a first down until the 3rd quarter vs a team that had the worst rush defense in NFL history. While the coach just stands there on the sideline with that friggin' confused look that Jets fans are all too familiar with.

It finally silenced him a little - until his buddies went to the superbowl. Then Hermie was there for all available "I told you so" interviews to somehow attempt to have Smith & Dungy's SuperBowl success rub off on his current performance simply b/c they all run a cover-2.

Yeah, Herm's an outstanding coach. I'm sure his current players are convinced that he's the man with all the answers instead of just the buffoon with all the chicken wings.

Did they make thre playoffsin 2006? YES. Did they mak it in 2005? NO! the record is meaningless. KC was far less talented in 2006 and yet won just one less game- winning 9 w/ that roster and getting to the postseason is MUCH more impressive than winning 1 more reg season game an missingthe playoffs w/ a much more talented roster. The '05 Chiefs had a chance indec but blew it then won 2 meningless games te last 2 week to get to 10 wins including beating Cincy's backups in week 17 now please exlain to me how that is more impressive than beating the team that beat us 41-0 to get into the playoffs?

In case ou didn't notie that "wort us defense in the history of the NFL" played pretty well in January and how is it erm's fault that KC coudn't run? I guarantee you if they ran it for 150 yds and won the game you would not have given him credit so why does he get blame b/c the players didn't execute? Their D forced Tos and kept them in the game for a while- why doesn't he get credit for that?

by the way, here's that "awful" Colts run D in the playoffs:

-held Larry Johnson to 32 yards on 13 carries

-held jamal lewis to 53 yds.

-Held Dillon and mauroney to 61 yds

The only RB to have success against them in the playoffswas Thomas Jones so put aside the meaningles reg season rankingsad lok at what they did in january.

ONCE AGAIN, I have NEVER said Herm is an outstanding coach- he's good coach and hehas proven that. You guys think he's worse than Kotite and just have to post the facts so people know the truth rather than your biased feelings about the guy.

[nyjunc]

POTW nom! and a great new phrase for nyjunc and rjensen!!!

it's so hysterical when someone post basically nothing ten a poster who agrees w/ his thinking post "POW nominee!" while I am the one posting facts. I guess it makes you guys feel like you are positig relevant info that helps your case but that's not happening and we all know it.

[trend]

POTW nom! and a great new phrase for nyjunc and rjensen!!!

Dude, junc and jensen are the same guy. Really.

[Sperm Edwards]

Did they make thre playoffsin 2006? YES. Did they mak it in 2005? NO! the record is meaningless. KC was far less talented in 2006 and yet won just one less game- winning 9 w/ that roster and getting to the postseason is MUCH more impressive than winning 1 more reg season game an missingthe playoffs w/ a much more talented roster. The '05 Chiefs had a chance indec but blew it then won 2 meningless games te last 2 week to get to 10 wins including beating Cincy's backups in week 17 now please exlain to me how that is more impressive than beating the team that beat us 41-0 to get into the playoffs?

In case ou didn't notie that "wort us defense in the history of the NFL" played pretty well in January and how is it erm's fault that KC coudn't run? I guarantee you if they ran it for 150 yds and won the game you would not have given him credit so why does he get blame b/c the players didn't execute? Their D forced Tos and kept them in the game for a while- why doesn't he get credit for that?

by the way, here's that "awful" Colts run D in the playoffs:

-held Larry Johnson to 32 yards on 13 carries

-held jamal lewis to 53 yds.

-Held Dillon and mauroney to 61 yds

The only RB to have success against them in the playoffswas Thomas Jones so put aside the meaningles reg season rankingsad lok at what they did in january.

ONCE AGAIN, I have NEVER said Herm is an outstanding coach- he's good coach and hehas proven that. You guys think he's worse than Kotite and just have to post the facts so people know the truth rather than your biased feelings about the guy.

You can't be serious.

So other teams' failures is what separates your own team from being good or bad? It's not YOUR team's success that matters, but rather how bad the competition was that dictates success?

You are the first person to say that a 10-win season is worse performance than a 9-win season.

So if Denver, with a rookie QB inserted after the halfway point, doesn't basically call the season off to get Cutler some playing time, then Herm is a failure? But because they did, Herm is a resounding success? Because they beat Jay Cutler in his first NFL start (by a whopping 9 pts) & made the difference between Denver finishing 10-6 & KC finishing 8-8, Herm is did a great job? Because they only beat Seattle because they were out the incumbent 2005 NFL MVP Alexander AND 2005 Pro-Bowl QB Hasselbeck, Herm did a great job? Because they beat SD with 2 recently injured OLmen (McNeill & Olivea), DLman (Olshansky), Herm did a great job? Because they beat the Cardinals by 3 pts after Arizona collapsed when Fitzgerald got knocked out of the game, Johnson dropping a sure TD pass right in his hands, a starting OG who missed practice because he got married, and an improbable late 80-yd run by LJ, Herm did a great job? Because they squeaked out a 4-pt win vs the worst team in football, with injuries to like 10 of their starters - IN Kansas City no less - Herm did a great job?

If your success is measured in relative terms by the failure of others, your success is technical at best. Particularly when ignoring the reasons for those others' failures.

Jamal Lewis sucks & still got over 4 ypc vs Indy. Mike Anderson also added 18 yds (more than half of what LJ had in an entire game) on only 4 carries (4.5ypc). Dillon/Maroney still averaged over 4 ypc combined - just didn't have a lot of carries. Dillon had like 7 ypc. Only Maroney - a rookie with FAR less ability than the phenomenally talented LJ - had bad games against Indy. To say that LJ's bad game - because of Herm's predictable gameplan - was equal to the performance of Lewis or Dillon is manipulating total yards without looking at how many carries each had to get said totals.

Indy's rush defense sucked & only had a relatively easy go of it against Herm's stupid run-run-run-punt gameplan. I know what he did. He looked up stats & stupidly assumed that running LJ every play would translate into an automatic win. Dungy counted on this shortsightedness & just stacked the line knowing Herm wouldn't throw the ball much (and when he did it would be of the dumpoff variety).

Herm is not proven that he is a good coach except in the eyes of those who have an irrational affinity for him. What he has proven is that he is a lucky coach who's had the benefit of taking over talented teams & made the playoffs by the collapses of others (2001 Oakland game getting moved, 2002 Miami/NE game, 2004 Buffalo/Pittsburgh game, 2006 Denver & Seattle & Arizona) rather than the dominance of the teams he actually coached.

[Sperm Edwards]

And I noticed you glossed over getting called out on your attempted intellectual dishonesty in the starts of the Jets under Parcells vs Herm. Under Parcells you only cited up to when the Jets had a losing record. When you cited Herm, you jumped over the losing-record start & only cited after the team had clawed its way back up to .500 as your definition of "start" to the season.

That screams "agenda" more than any of this other stuff you're spewing out.

You don't seek to merely correct misinformed opinions, as you weakly put it. What you seek to argue for Herm/Chad & against Parcells. Those are the only arguments you seem to participate in. Any other "misguided" opinions you let slide without a peep.

So you are hardly this unbiased knight of seeking the truth that you purport yourself to be. You are a Hermapologist & a Chadapologist. That's fine, but at least be proud of who you are instead of pretending otherwise. It's not fooling anyone.

You can have the last word in this. I don't really care anymore.

[Lil Bit Special]

Let's see... the argument is:

Hermapologist: Herm's teams were successful, look at how many playoff appearances they made. And he had excuses (injuries) when they didnt make the playoffs.

Herm-haters: Herm is a terrible head coach. He doesnt know how to build a roster. He doesnt know how to call appropriate plays. He doesnt know how to make ingame adjustments. He scapegoats everyone.

So, IF you go by stats, Hermapologists are right. Herm is a successful head coach.

IF you go by what you feel and believe, Herm Haters are right.

Many football fans look past what the stats say and watch what actually happens. Stats people only look at numbers. Numbers dont tell the entire story.

The only thing I cannot figure out is why has Herm's teams been successful (stats wise)

Is it because of the players who were there were talented enough to get past Herm's coaching during the regular season, only to fall against better opponents.

What if Rich Kotite was head coach during this stretch. Would he have had the same results as Herm?

What about Parcells???

This argument is getting tired and old. You want to love Herm Edwards and his accomplishments in NY? By all means, enjoy.

But you will never change the opinion of those fans who hate him. I know why I hate this man. You and your numbers wont change my mind.

My suggestion. Ignore all Herm threads. But this is a messageboard where people come to express their opinions, good or bad. Why dont you let us have our fun at Hermie's expense. He doesnt need you defending him.

[mr nyjet]

Speak for yourself. I knew we were going nowhere with Herm very early. Gave him a pass in 2001 cause he was a rookie, but when I saw us come out of the gates unprepared and out of shape for the start of the 2002 season and when I saw that Herm still couldnt tell time I knew he was hopeless.

If you want to win 9, 10 games and get embarrassed int he playoffs herm is your guy. If you want to win a super bowl look elsewhere.

you can say the same thing about ol noodle arm.

[mr nyjet]

Hate to break it to you but last year Huard was a lot better than Pennington. Only an apologist would argue something so absurd as saying Chad was "much" better than Huard last year. If Chad went half a season with 11 TD's and 1 INT, those stupid Chad vs Brady debates would have begun again. But since Pennington was given a $64M contract & Huard was a career backup, it gets dismissed as though Huard was playing at a low-to-mediocre level. And Herm benched him anyway to bring back the veteran who then at times looked as dizzy as the moment he woke up from that hit.

But prior to that? Green had over 16,000 yards & almost 100 TD's over the past 4 seasons with no WR's any teams wish they had. Chad has 72 in his career playing with Chrebet, Coles, Moss, and Cotchery. Even McCareins had 7 TD's the year before Chad got to him. He has 7 TD's in the 3 years since. Green may not have been in the Manning/Brady league of phenom QB's, but he was easily a top-10 QB. Could you honestly see Chad throwing 8 TD's in a season to Leslie Shepherd, Marc Boerigter, or Eddie Kennison? Right.

If Herm took over as HC of the Patriots in 2000, no one would know who Tom Brady is.

And by the way, YES. The 5-0 start was only because of the schedule. The biggest win margin was an 8-point victory vs a 2-win team. Really, how can anyone see a pattern in 5 of 6 seasons and use the one exception as a valid argument to the contrary. That's like pointing to one good game from Kimo last year and suggesting he wasn't a liability the 5 games surrounding it.

that was a really great post.

[JetsMan57]

The differnce from our playoff D in '04 and lat year as far as personnell was we didn't have ferguson but we had Rhodes instead of Tongue ad Dyson instead of Donne Abe. That's an upgrade at 2 of the spots and HUGE upgrade at the SS spot so we had talent.

It's worthless continuing any dialogue with you on this topic. You've proven to be irrational and unobjective that it is totally pointless to continue.

[BP]

it's so hysterical when someone post basically nothing ten a poster who agrees w/ his thinking post "POW nominee!" while I am the one posting facts. I guess it makes you guys feel like you are positig relevant info that helps your case but that's not happening and we all know it.

FWIW..arguing with you over Herm gets old quickly..and besides,it's very enjoyable for me to watch Sperm completely own you on this subject,and that's why he gets the nomination,and not you.

[ECURB]

FWIW..arguing with you over Herm gets old quickly..and besides,it's very enjoyable to me to watch Sperm completely own you on this subject,and that's why he gets the nomination,and not you.

Have a good night last night BP?

[BP]

Have a good night last night BP?

Oh yeah..I just got done working out..I was sweating like a pig..my GF said she could smell the booze coming out of me LOL!

[ECURB]

Oh yeah..I just got done working out..I was sweating like a pig..my GF said she could smell the booze coming out of me LOL!

lol I took the day off today... I played basketball for 5 hours last night!

I will sweat out the booze tommorow...

[PeterNorth09]

Herm sucks. He's a mediocre coach that got lucky with some good teams here. He thought he was walking into a better situation in KC when he was actually in a better situation here in NY and now next year is going to be the apocalypse for him. End of story.

[Jet Moses]

Herm sucks. He's a mediocre coach that got lucky with some good teams here. He thought he was walking into a better situation in KC when he was actually in a better situation here in NY and now next year is going to be the apocalypse for him. End of story.

He wasn't "actually in a better situation here in NY".

It only became a better situation because he left. If he was still here, the team would be horrible mess.

[Bugg]

What it comes back to is that Edwards is a very samll-minded person. he makes the move people cannot question-running Martin into the ground, doing the same with LJ. You cannot question it wasn't the best choice, but it was the obvious, easiest and short-sighted one. Not putting Pennington in there until he had no real other choice. Putting Green in there even when Huard had played well. His whole brand of football is is risk averse stupidity. Yes, you can win some games based on thsoe percentages of bend don't break Cover 2 combined with a brainless run/eun/pass offense. But you won't win in the playoffs or against superior coaching.

One thing I love about Mangini-teams literally have no diea what the Jets will dof rom week-to-week, and they won with middling-ranked units. Game to game, quarter to quarter series to series, Mangini looks at the game and says what can we do right now to be successful.

Edwards loved telling everyone how his teams are ranked, but in an single game, that doesn't mean anything. Nobody stops a 3rd and 8 because your defense vs. thr pass is ranked #11th.

You have to dare to be great, and that kind of thing in beyond the 9-6 FG fest Edwards envisions as his perfect game. And if thing don't play out as he expects, forget it. Had he been a Ranger captain on Omaha Beach, or captained Columbus's ships, or run NASA, we don't get very far.Some choices in life go beyond the job preservation ideas of Edwards, and he doesn't see beyond what keeps him in his corner office.

[SouthernJet]

Sperm,, photoshop...have fun,,obviuosaly Herm as I wanna Brain Scarecrow,, Mangini as Wizard,,

have fun figuring out no bravery Lion, no herat TinMan and Dorothy (Brady?)

[124]

Hes been gone for over a year now, you people are obsessed! I want to stick it to Herm as much as any of you do on December 30th but enough is enough with a new thread or 2 every single week on the guy.

[PeterNorth09]

He wasn't "actually in a better situation here in NY".

It only became a better situation because he left. If he was still here, the team would be horrible mess.

If Herm had stayed for the 2006 season he would have had the easiest schedule in the NFL and the 4th pick overall in every round of the draft. Plus lowered expectations after a 4-12 injury plagued season.

vs.

His best player in KC, Larry Johnson, is a loose cannon who hates him. Willie Roaf and Will Shields, arguably two of the greatest offensive linemen of all time, are both old and about to retire, Trent Green is 37 and has a concussion problem and the dumbass GM Carl Peterson is willing to waste draft picks on the likes of Brode Croyle and Dwayne Bowe.

Right now Herm probably wishes he had stayed.

[Jet Moses]

If Herm had stayed for the 2006 season he would have had the easiest schedule in the NFL and the 4th pick overall in every round of the draft. Plus lowered expectations after a 4-12 injury plagued season.

vs.

His best player in KC, Larry Johnson, is a loose cannon who hates him. Willie Roaf and Will Shields, arguably two of the greatest offensive linemen of all time, are both old and about to retire, Trent Green is 37 and has a concussion problem and the dumbass GM Carl Peterson is willing to waste draft picks on the likes of Brode Croyle and Dwayne Bowe.

Right now Herm probably wishes he had stayed.

It all comes down to the fact that Herman Edwards is clueless. He has no business being an NFL HC. He conveniently surrounds himself with scapegoats, or takes advantage of the ones that are available, and tosses them under the bus when the opportunity presents itself.

Bradway was in over his head as a GM, but Woody couldn't dump him, because the new GM would have fired the BBQ man immediately. The two of them understood the dynamics of the arrangement, and basically spent five years engaged in damage control, buto little else. Neither one of them had a plan, I think that they just winged it. I think Herm thought that he had a plan, he had plenty of "yes" men blowing smoke up his *ss, telling him how smart he was, but the guy was in over his head. I think Bradway sincerely tried to make the team better, but without Herm's cooperation, it was all for naught.

At the end of the day, Herm spent five years exhausting the shelf life of a veteran core he inherited from Parcells. He didn't develop any players along the way. And when attrition took its toll through free agency, age, and injury, Herm shagged a*s out of town, leaving a complete mess in his wake.

For you guys who keep on bagging on the moves Mangini and Tannenbaum have made thus far, you really need to take a step back and acknowledge that the team is in good shape considering the pile of sh*t it was at the end of the 2006 season.

As far as what is going on in Kansas City, it's not a coincidence that the team has been on a downward spiral since the flim flam man came to town.

And anybody who wants to make the argument cough cough njunc cough that the Chiefs improved under Edwards because they made the playoffs, just isn't paying attention.

[Jet Moses]

Hes been gone for over a year now, you people are obsessed! I want to stick it to Herm as much as any of you do on December 30th but enough is enough with a new thread or 2 every single week on the guy.

I will not stop bashing that MFer until he is selling used cars in Omaha.

[BP]

Hes been gone for over a year now, you people are obsessed! I want to stick it to Herm as much as any of you do on December 30th but enough is enough with a new thread or 2 every single week on the guy.

Never!

The man caused me a life time of aggravation in his five years with the Jets..I used to get so aggravated when we won games.

When he's exposed as the fraud he really is,then I might be willing to lay low.

[nyjunc]

You can't be serious.

So other teams' failures is what separates your own team from being good or bad? It's not YOUR team's success that matters, but rather how bad the competition was that dictates success?

You are the first person to say that a 10-win season is worse performance than a 9-win season.

So if Denver, with a rookie QB inserted after the halfway point, doesn't basically call the season off to get Cutler some playing time, then Herm is a failure? But because they did, Herm is a resounding success? Because they beat Jay Cutler in his first NFL start (by a whopping 9 pts) & made the difference between Denver finishing 10-6 & KC finishing 8-8, Herm is did a great job? Because they only beat Seattle because they were out the incumbent 2005 NFL MVP Alexander AND 2005 Pro-Bowl QB Hasselbeck, Herm did a great job? Because they beat SD with 2 recently injured OLmen (McNeill & Olivea), DLman (Olshansky), Herm did a great job? Because they beat the Cardinals by 3 pts after Arizona collapsed when Fitzgerald got knocked out of the game, Johnson dropping a sure TD pass right in his hands, a starting OG who missed practice because he got married, and an improbable late 80-yd run by LJ, Herm did a great job? Because they squeaked out a 4-pt win vs the worst team in football, with injuries to like 10 of their starters - IN Kansas City no less - Herm did a great job?

If your success is measured in relative terms by the failure of others, your success is technical at best. Particularly when ignoring the reasons for those others' failures.

Jamal Lewis sucks & still got over 4 ypc vs Indy. Mike Anderson also added 18 yds (more than half of what LJ had in an entire game) on only 4 carries (4.5ypc). Dillon/Maroney still averaged over 4 ypc combined - just didn't have a lot of carries. Dillon had like 7 ypc. Only Maroney - a rookie with FAR less ability than the phenomenally talented LJ - had bad games against Indy. To say that LJ's bad game - because of Herm's predictable gameplan - was equal to the performance of Lewis or Dillon is manipulating total yards without looking at how many carries each had to get said totals.

Indy's rush defense sucked & only had a relatively easy go of it against Herm's stupid run-run-run-punt gameplan. I know what he did. He looked up stats & stupidly assumed that running LJ every play would translate into an automatic win. Dungy counted on this shortsightedness & just stacked the line knowing Herm wouldn't throw the ball much (and when he did it would be of the dumpoff variety).

Herm is not proven that he is a good coach except in the eyes of those who have an irrational affinity for him. What he has proven is that he is a lucky coach who's had the benefit of taking over talented teams & made the playoffs by the collapses of others (2001 Oakland game getting moved, 2002 Miami/NE game, 2004 Buffalo/Pittsburgh game, 2006 Denver & Seattle & Arizona) rather than the dominance of the teams he actually coached.

The bottom line is denver was struggling anyway and Denver blew it, KC won the games thye ahd to win while Den and other teams did not. We could say the jets amde the playoffs b/c Jax and Den faed but the facts are we won enough games to make it and that's all that matters.

The Colts slowed down the raven running game and forced bal to try to beat them through the air which didn't work. It's herms fault LJ was awful? How was Herm's gameplan against Dungy in '02? So b/c they lost, b/c the RB was awful and the QB as bad it was herm's fault?

Indy

s run defense was great against KC an did very well the other 2 AFC games. The only bad game they had was in the SB.

if you want call him lvuky that's fine. it's amazing he has had the luck to reach the postseason 4 of 6 years as a HC and the only years he didn't make it he lost his starting QB for most of the year. it's amazing he was so lucky in '01 while parcells had no luck in '97 and Groh didn't have luck in '00. Whatever the reasons are he has been successful and that matters more than anything else. Would you rather have a Coach who is perceived to be lucky that maks the playoffs or the coach that is unluky and misses them?

[nyjunc]

And I noticed you glossed over getting called out on your attempted intellectual dishonesty in the starts of the Jets under Parcells vs Herm. Under Parcells you only cited up to when the Jets had a losing record. When you cited Herm, you jumped over the losing-record start & only cited after the team had clawed its way back up to .500 as your definition of "start" to the season.

That screams "agenda" more than any of this other stuff you're spewing out.

You don't seek to merely correct misinformed opinions, as you weakly put it. What you seek to argue for Herm/Chad & against Parcells. Those are the only arguments you seem to participate in. Any other "misguided" opinions you let slide without a peep.

So you are hardly this unbiased knight of seeking the truth that you purport yourself to be. You are a Hermapologist & a Chadapologist. That's fine, but at least be proud of who you are instead of pretending otherwise. It's not fooling anyone.

You can have the last word in this. I don't really care anymore.

Who called me out? tha same person called the Jets start in '01 3-3 when the jets started 3-2 yet no mention of that? I posted the starts, he point was under BP we also had bad starts.

[nyjunc]

Let's see... the argument is:

Hermapologist: Herm's teams were successful, look at how many playoff appearances they made. And he had excuses (injuries) when they didnt make the playoffs.

Herm-haters: Herm is a terrible head coach. He doesnt know how to build a roster. He doesnt know how to call appropriate plays. He doesnt know how to make ingame adjustments. He scapegoats everyone.

So, IF you go by stats, Hermapologists are right. Herm is a successful head coach.

IF you go by what you feel and believe, Herm Haters are right.

Many football fans look past what the stats say and watch what actually happens. Stats people only look at numbers. Numbers dont tell the entire story.

The only thing I cannot figure out is why has Herm's teams been successful (stats wise)

Is it because of the players who were there were talented enough to get past Herm's coaching during the regular season, only to fall against better opponents.

What if Rich Kotite was head coach during this stretch. Would he have had the same results as Herm?

What about Parcells???

This argument is getting tired and old. You want to love Herm Edwards and his accomplishments in NY? By all means, enjoy.

But you will never change the opinion of those fans who hate him. I know why I hate this man. You and your numbers wont change my mind.

My suggestion. Ignore all Herm threads. But this is a messageboard where people come to express their opinions, good or bad. Why dont you let us have our fun at Hermie's expense. He doesnt need you defending him.

The game is about wins and losses, right? so that is the ultimate stat and therefore trumps any other argument against him.

[nyjunc]

Never!

The man caused me a life time of aggravation in his five years with the Jets..I used to get so aggravated when we won games.

When he's exposed as the fraud he really is,then I might be willing to lay low.

I assume you have been a jets fan a long time. I have bene following the team since the early 80s and I want a Championship in the worstway BUT most of my life pre-herm we stunk and missed th playoffs so when e make it 3of5 times I appreciate it. Fro '81-'2000 we made the playoffs 6 ties, from '01-'04 we made it 3 times. I like hat ratio better. I am very happy we have Mngini and I wouldn't trade back BUT that doesn't change the fact that we were successful under Herm and had our best playoff stretch in team history. We lso had to deal w/ a tough AFC and a dynasty team in our divison AND herm took the job after 3 Hs stepped down- no one wanted the dman job and he took it and had success. am not saying erect statues but have sme appreciation or what was done here.

[johnny green balls]

herm was the bill guthridge of the NYJ. he made it to 2 final four appearances with dean smith's teams and then left the program decimated and in disarray with horrible recruits.

had dean stayed around another 3 years, we would've had another champ banner or two hanging in the rafters of the dean dome. that team made it to the final four not because of guthridge, but in spite of him just like the jets and herm. had parcells been there, we would've found even more success.

[KSJets]

Would you rather have a Coach who is perceived to be lucky that maks the playoffs or the coach that is unluky and misses them?

I would rather have a coach that looks like he knows WTF he is doing. Herm always looks confused on the sidelines against a superior-coached team. I would rather have a coach that doesn't make the playoffs as much, but when he does, you have confidence that he can lead the team to the SB. Sure, we made the playoffs a lot under Herm, but I was never confident that he could lead us to a SB.

Not only does he get outcoached by the other team's HC, but he also outcoaches himself a lot too.

[Boozer76]

The game is about wins and losses, right? so that is the ultimate stat and therefore trumps any other argument against him.

50-52 total in the regular season and playoffs. That's what trumps every argument against him? Wow, I hope you are a manager and I get to work for you someday. It doesn't take much to please you apparantly.