Irish Jet Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 How are the facts there? The guy doesn't even explain what qualifies as a deep out. He calls himself a scientist yet he doesn't even use the scientific method. How much faker can it get? Rex Grossman could have been #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I love how the facts are right there... broken down... and people still find a way to bitch and complain about Chad... There are tons of numbers from "The Scientist" but no definition of how many yards he considers a deep out. The facts are not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 There are tons of numbers from "The Scientist" but no definition of how many yards he considers a deep out. The facts are not there. I dont want to hear from you on this, you claim he cant throw an out PERIOD... this at least proves you wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 Im sure he lists his formulas and such... this is only a sample... go to his homepage... he sells the full package... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war ensemble Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Im sure he lists his formulas and such... this is only a sample... go to his homepage... he sells the full package... First off, I went to his homepage, and that site's a POS. Most of it hasn't been updated since Week 10 last year, and you can't get any info off the site. Their glossary does not describe any of his formulas or even how long a deep out is. This site can't be used to prove a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 First off, I went to his homepage, and that site's a POS. Most of it hasn't been updated since Week 10 last year, and you can't get any info off the site. Their glossary does not describe any of his formulas or even how long a deep out is. This site can't be used to prove a point. I trust him over anyone here... he makes money off of his knowledge... ESPN uses him for their paid content as well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war ensemble Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I trust him over anyone here... he makes money off of his knowledge... ESPN uses him for their paid content as well.... Just because you trust him doesn't mean we do. And whoopdef*ckindoo he makes money! Janitors make money, is that because of their knowledge of cleaning toilets? It's quite easy to make money in this world, this guy is a prime example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Just because you trust him doesn't mean we do. And whoopdef*ckindoo he makes money! Janitors make money, is that because of their knowledge of cleaning toilets? It's quite easy to make money in this world, this guy is a prime example of that. I just sent an email to him through his website asking him what his definition of a deep out was. I will do the same at espn.com. I doubt I will receive a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed3 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I just sent an email to him through his website asking him what his definition of a deep out was. I will do the same at espn.com. I doubt I will receive a reply. At first I thought the site was bogus, as I couldn't access it the three different times I tried. Now that I have viewed the site, I cannot argue it's validity but can say this. If the "mad scientist" isn't biased (big if) and uses the same definition of "deep out" for every stat he has recorded; then does it matter what the definition is???? Penny can throw that pass. Can he throw the deep laser, 45 yards? no. Can he throw a 30 yard laser? no. Can he throw a 20 yard laser? yeah. So can I, and the rest of the typing community. The deep out isn't a laser pass. It's a timing based, high arch-pass, which counts on the defender being a step behind the cut. Can Penny throw that? YES. What's the big deal? New thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed3 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Also, the deep out isn't a streak, or hail-mary. Typical "out" passes involve a 5-yard or 7-yard cut. The "deep out" is a 10-12 yard route that sharply cuts to the side-line. -----> ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- X X Other offenses (like the one Brady runs) often employ crossing routes, slants, and in-patterns, to keep the ball in bounds. Penny was guilty of throwing a bit high last season; a tendency that best benefits the "deep out".... The reciever gets it, or the ball soars out of bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 At first I thought the site was bogus, as I couldn't access it the three different times I tried. Now that I have viewed the site, I cannot argue it's validity but can say this. If the "mad scientist" isn't biased (big if) and uses the same definition of "deep out" for every stat he has recorded; then does it matter what the definition is???? Penny can throw that pass. Can he throw the deep laser, 45 yards? no. Can he throw a 30 yard laser? no. Can he throw a 20 yard laser? yeah. So can I, and the rest of the typing community. The deep out isn't a laser pass. It's a timing based, high arch-pass, which counts on the defender being a step behind the cut. Can Penny throw that? YES. What's the big deal? New thread. Exactly, in fact its one of Pennington's strengths. Since Penny doesn't have a great arm, he has to make up for it with great decision making and timing. As you mentioned, the deep out is primarily a timing pass that relies heavily on accuracy, not so much arm strength. Basically, the ball is supposed to be thrown just as the receiver is making the break to get past his defender(s). If one watched him last year or throughout his career, they would see just how much Penny has relied and succeeded on throwing that pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serphnx Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Im sure he lists his formulas and such... this is only a sample... go to his homepage... he sells the full package... I hate when people say things like this. The fact is generally people DON'T list these things, and generally they use faulty formulas, statistics and data to arrive at their (pre-conceived/desired) results. Gainzo has said he has looked and can't find them, and I believe him over your blind belief in a (possible?) member of the media. I trust my own judgment, and the well reasoned arguments of many of the posters on this site over a moron on ESPN. The media is the same group of idiots that ripped into us for firing Herm, hiring Mangini, getting ride of Abe, and countless other things that have repeatedly been proven wrong, yet people insist on just ignoring their track records when it suits them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Got an e-mail response from KC Bruce, Thanks for taking the time to write. The deep out pass is typically thrown at about 15 yards downfield. That normally makes it end up in the medium pass depth category. I was also a bit surprised that the YPA figures on a 15-yard pass attempt would end up as they did, or at least I was in the beginning. Given that a really good success rate on a medium pass is 50%, I finally realized it would make sense that the YPA on those routes would typically end up in the 7-yard range. The deep out was only one of 17 pass types that I did this for. I also ran these route figures for wide receivers and cornerbacks. It's an aspect of the game that I don't believe has ever been covered, so it made for very intriguing research time. I hope that helps answer your question and also hope to be sending you a book! KC Hope that shuts some of you up.... I know it wont becuase some people are obsessed with complaining about Chad... but oh well... I might buy his book, sounds like there are some very cool stats in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Got an e-mail response from KC Hope that shuts some of you up.... I know it wont becuase some people are obsessed with complaining about Chad... but oh well... I might buy his book, sounds like there are some very cool stats in it. Can you post the email you sent to him as his answer makes no sense to me. I was also a bit surprised that the YPA figures on a 15-yard pass attempt would end up as they did, or at least I was in the beginning. Given that a really good success rate on a medium pass is 50%, I finally realized it would make sense that the YPA on those routes would typically end up in the 7-yard range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Can you post the email you sent to him as his answer makes no sense to me. It was from the contact form on his website... so I dont have it... I asked him to explain his findings on the "deep out" a little better... This didnt do it for you? The deep out pass is typically thrown at about 15 yards downfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 I see what YOU meant now... he must have thought I was suprised by how low the YPA were on the "deep" pattern... and tried to explain that a little better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 It was from the contact form on his website... so I dont have it... I asked him to explain his findings on the "deep out" a little better... This didnt do it for you? He defined what a deep out was and then mentioned 7 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentos Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Can you post the email you sent to him as his answer makes no sense to me. YPA is Yards Per Attempt, if that helps you. If a passer goes 1 for 2 for 15 yards, his YPA is 7.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 He defined what a deep out was and then mentioned 7 yards. Yes why are you being so thick headed about this? YARDS PER ATTEMPT That included incomplete passes.... do you get it now or do I need to break it down further for you??? he was tlaking about the YPA for deep outs... YPA... say it one more time YPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Yes why are you being so thick headed about this? YARDS PER ATTEMPT That included incomplete passes.... do you get it now or do I need to break it down further for you??? he was tlaking about the YPA for deep outs... YPA... say it one more time YPA No need to call me thick headed. Reading KC's run on sentence I missed the YPA reference. I was wrong. The stats prove that Pennington is better than Manning, Brady, Palmer, Brees and countless other QB's throwing a deep out. If you order the book can you tell me what KC thinks of Chad's 17TD/16INT performance last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 No need to call me thick headed. Reading KC's run on sentence I missed the YPA reference. I was wrong. The stats prove that Pennington is better than Manning, Brady, Palmer, Brees and countless other QB's throwing a deep out. If you order the book can you tell me what KC thinks of Chad's 17TD/16INT performance last year? LOL If I buy his book I will let you know where Chad ranks in the other passes... Just no more "Chad cant throw an Out" from you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 LOL If I buy his book I will let you know where Chad ranks in the other passes... Just no more "Chad cant throw an Out" from you! He can't throw an out. The only reason he completes those passes on the sideline is because the defense is giving that to him. I'm going to fire up the DVR and watch Chad in the wild card game. I'll get back to you on the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 He can't throw an out. The only reason he completes those passes on the sideline is because the defense is giving that to him. I'm going to fire up the DVR and watch Chad in the wild card game. I'll get back to you on the results. LOL Your ridiculous! I gave you written published proof from a respected professional... and thats not enough! Your just mad becuase Brady ranked near the bottom on this one... its ok... life goes on even if your QB sucks at the deep out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 LOL Your ridiculous! I gave you written published proof from a respected professional... and thats not enough! Your just mad becuase Brady ranked near the bottom on this one... its ok... life goes on even if your QB sucks at the deep out Brady, Manning, Brees & Palmer were all "ranked" lower than Chad. That tells me that stats can be very misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Brady, Manning, Brees & Palmer were all "ranked" lower than Chad. That tells me that stats can be very misleading. How are the misleading? Chad is better (in 2006) at throwing the deep out than them. There is nothing misleading about it, nowhere does it say he is a better QB overall... he just had more success with that pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Brady, Manning, Brees & Palmer were all "ranked" lower than Chad. That tells me that stats can be very misleading. No, just that Pennington is good at the deep out. Anyway I guess you've just been owned on this argument so its back to watching a game where Pennington still probably completed more deep outs then Brady did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war ensemble Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 How are the misleading? Chad is better (in 2006) at throwing the deep out than them. There is nothing misleading about it, nowhere does it say he is a better QB overall... he just had more success with that pass. Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying that stats aren't misleading? Nothing other than completed deep outs was processed in his "formula". It doesn't take into account the defenses played or anything of that matter. I don't see how you can use this source to prove your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying that stats aren't misleading? Nothing other than completed deep outs was processed in his "formula". It doesn't take into account the defenses played or anything of that matter. I don't see how you can use this source to prove your point. Fine 2006 Strength of Schedule New England Patriots (.473) New York Jets (.465) Now will you admit Chad was better at Deep outs than Brady in 06'? What more do you need? I think your being a bit picky... the NFL is a diverse league and any team can win on any given Sunday... Chad played good against the Colts and like **** against the browns so going based on how good a team is doesnt really matter either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war ensemble Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Fine 2006 Strength of Schedule New England Patriots (.473) New York Jets (.465) Now will you admit Chad was better at Deep outs than Brady in 06'? What more do you need? I think your being a bit picky... the NFL is a diverse league and any team can win on any given Sunday... Chad played good against the Colts and like **** against the browns so going based on how good a team is doesnt really matter either... I never said Brady was better at deep outs than Chad. I don't even know where that comparison is coming from, to be honest. All I'm saying is that this football scientist isn't a credible source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying that stats aren't misleading? Nothing other than completed deep outs was processed in his "formula". It doesn't take into account the defenses played or anything of that matter. I don't see how you can use this source to prove your point. Are YOU kidding? Just watch a game and see how many times he throws and completes the deep out. WHEN THROWING THAT PASS, he is definately one of the best in the league. However, when trying to throw the thread the needle bullet type pass, he is by far one of the worst in the league. However, I would definately say that Pennington is beyond capable of throwing the deep out. In fact, its probably how Pennington also has thrown the majority of TD's throughout his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war ensemble Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Are YOU kidding? Just watch a game and see how many times he throws and completes the deep out. WHEN THROWING THAT PASS, he is definately one of the best in the league. However, when trying to throw the thread the needle bullet type pass, he is by far one of the worst in the league. However, I would definately say that Pennington is beyond capable of throwing the deep out. In fact, its probably how Pennington also has thrown the majority of TD's throughout his career. I'm not denying that, I'm questioning the credibility of the source. Read the whole thread and you'll see that. By the way, I'm not kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangreenman Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I'm not denying that, I'm questioning the credibility of the source. Read the whole thread and you'll see that. By the way, I'm not kidding. You said that the stat was misleading, but when called on it, you deny you ever did say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 I'm not denying that, I'm questioning the credibility of the source. Read the whole thread and you'll see that. By the way, I'm not kidding. Why is he not credible? He listed stats of deep outs thrown and completed.... why would you think they are not accurate when he works for ESPN... has a published book... and is praised by NFL coaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war ensemble Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 You said that the stat was misleading, but when called on it, you deny you ever did say that. No, I never denied that. I denied saying that Chad can't throw the deep out. I said that stats in general are misleading, and then I went on to say why the source isn't credible. Also, ecurb, many ESPN analysts are stupid, and even Terrell Owens has a published book. But the part about NFL coaches praising him wasn't in the article, but if you could show me that, then I will label him legit. Many stats are not accurate, but I'll agree with you if NFL coaches agree with you. Just show me where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 No, I never denied that. I denied saying that Chad can't throw the deep out. I said that stats in general are misleading, and then I went on to say why the source isn't credible. Also, ecurb, many ESPN analysts are stupid, and even Terrell Owens has a published book. But the part about NFL coaches praising him wasn't in the article, but if you could show me that, then I will label him legit. Many stats are not accurate, but I'll agree with you if NFL coaches agree with you. Just show me where. Go to his website, Gm's coaches and other NFL staff praise him and his books on the side scroller... also he is not an ESPN writer... just a writer that ESPN included with the pay content.. he does not work for ESPN... Please explain to me how the stats are misleading... I think they are very clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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