Where's My Thread ecurb?

[SouthernJet]

Oh, yeah sorry. The answer is AJ Hawk and Bobby Carpenter.

Now let me ask you some questions?

Who recorded over 110 tackles, 10 TFL, 3 sacks, and one pick, including 19 tackles against Notre Dame and Virginia Tech during his Sophomore year at the Air Force Academy?

Who led the Buckeyes in tackles for loss in 04 (when all three LBs were on the team)?

Who had more sacks in 04? Hawk, Carpenter, or Schlegel?

Who was second on the team in tackles to AJ Hawk in 05?

How many college teams lead the nation in rushing defense having faced 5 of the the top 25 rushing teams in the nation with an MLB that cant play? The answer to that one is none.

You're out of your league if you want to get into an argument with me about Schlegel at Ohio State. Stick to Schlegel with the Jets if you want to have a chance.

thank u,, answer is clear,, mangini and company realize schloogle was bologna in between two pieces of prime rib,,

oh by the way skippy,, hawk and carpenter drew double teams,,you are sadly inept at football knowledge if you didnt relaize that,,game set match,,you lose,,AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gibbon]

When will you get it? Are you to expect me take your opinion of Schlegel over our coaches? Did you personally count his reps over Kassell's? If our coaches feel Schlegel was worse than Kassell, I shudder to think how bad he really must have been. Ray Ventrone busted his ass more than anyone it would seem, yet he didn't mke te team. Sometimes busting your ass isn't enough. At some point you have to be good.

It doesnt take a (Man)genius to know that a third team guy doesnt get nearly as many reps as a first or second team guy. See, time is finite. Practice time is limited. They dont spend even half of practice runnning full defense against full offense. So lets say out of a 2:30 hour practice they run 11 on 11 offense against defense for 60 minutes. Do you think they divide that evenly among the teams? So that the first team only gets 20 minutes? I'd be willing to bet you that of that hour the first teams get something like 40 minutes (hell on my sons Pee Wee team the first team gets a bigger percentage of the time than that). Now lets say you have promising rookie that you spent a good bit of draft getting and that you are hoping can prove his worth and be at least a regular Defensive sub and he's on the second team. How much of the 20 minutes remaining do you give that guy and the second team? Only half? Of course not. So your third and fourth team guys see maybe 5 10 minutes of actually game situation play time? This limits their chances to "shine" and show better than other players.

Ventrone did bust his ass. He had one great game as a special teamer. But again the difference is that the team had nothing invested in Ventrone. They were losing nothing by limiting his opportunities. By limiting Schlegel's opportunities they were giving up any chance of getting value out of the 3rd round pick the used to get him.

[Maxman]

Hey I didn't read all this -- but I saw the bet. Did Ecurb honor it? Pretty weak if not.

[SouthernJet]

When will you get it? Are you to expect me take your opinion of Schlegel over our coaches? Did you personally count his reps over Kassell's? If our coaches feel Schlegel was worse than Kassell, I shudder to think how bad he really must have been. Ray Ventrone busted his ass more than anyone it would seem, yet he didn't mke te team. Sometimes busting your ass isn't enough. At some point you have to be good.

It doesnt take a (Man)genius to know that a third team guy doesnt get nearly as many reps as a first or second team guy. See, time is finite. Practice time is limited. They dont spend even half of practice runnning full defense against full offense. So lets say out of a 2:30 hour practice they run 11 on 11 offense against defense for 60 minutes. Do you think they divide that evenly among the teams? So that the first team only gets 20 minutes? I'd be willing to bet you that of that hour the first teams get something like 40 minutes (hell on my sons Pee Wee team the first team gets a bigger percentage of the time than that). Now lets say you have promising rookie that you spent a good bit of draft getting and that you are hoping can prove his worth and be at least a regular Defensive sub and he's on the second team. How much of the 20 minutes remaining do you give that guy and the second team? Only half? Of course not. So your third and fourth team guys see maybe 5 10 minutes of actually game situation play time? This limits their chances to "shine" and show better than other players.

Ventrone did bust his ass. He had one great game as a special teamer. But again the difference is that the team had nothing invested in Ventrone. They were losing nothing by limiting his opportunities. By limiting Schlegel's opportunities they were giving up any chance of getting value out of the 3rd round pick the used to get him.

[Boozer76]

Oh, yeah sorry. The answer is AJ Hawk and Bobby Carpenter.

Now let me ask you some questions?

Who recorded over 110 tackles, 10 TFL, 3 sacks, and one pick, including 19 tackles against Notre Dame and Virginia Tech during his Sophomore year at the Air Force Academy?

Who led the Buckeyes in tackles for loss in 04 (when all three LBs were on the team)?

Who had more sacks in 04? Hawk, Carpenter, or Schlegel?

Who was second on the team in tackles to AJ Hawk in 05?

How many college teams lead the nation in rushing defense having faced 5 of the the top 25 rushing teams in the nation with an MLB that cant play? The answer to that one is none.

You're out of your league if you want to get into an argument with me about Schlegel at Ohio State. Stick to Schlegel with the Jets if you want to have a chance.

Huh, and yet after all that both Carpenter and Hawk were ranked much higher than Schelegel coming into the draft. Go figure

By limiting Schlegel's opportunities they were giving up any chance of getting value out of the 3rd round pick the used to get him.

No, it's not the coaches limiting his opportunities, it's the fact that he clearly did not shine when he was given the opportunity. The NFL, as is life, is all about taking advantage of limited opportunities. As I said before, I believe in a coaching staff that is willing to part ways with a mistake, regardless of what they paid for it.

[Gibbon]

thank u,, answer is clear,, mangini and company realize schloogle was bologna in between two pieces of prime rib,,

oh by the way skippy,, hawk and carpenter drew double teams,,you are sadly inept at football knowledge if you didnt relaize that,,game set match,,you lose,,AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many Ohio State games did you actually watch? One?

I am a Buckeye fan and based on what you wrote above know a good deal more about Ohio State Football and Football in General than you.

Your claim above is that Schlegel was only successful because Hawk and Carpenter were double teamed right. Who, exactly was double teaming these guys? O Linemen? You are saying that on most plays two offensive linemen were assigned to double team two Linebackers? Who then was blocking the 4 down linemen.

Now let me see how this would work:

The tackle on each end (since they were OLBs) would be assigned to block one of them each and then on the strong sid the tight end would help and on the weak side the fullback?, other tight end?, wide reciever? would help block the other. Leaving the two guards and the center to block 4 down linemen and Schlegel. Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard and I guarantee you as someone who has watched every Buckeye game since ESPN gameplan came into existence, that never happened.

You are a football moron and way out of your depth here. Stop talking about Ohio State Football now. You're way out of your depth sonny.

[Gibbon]

Hey I didn't read all this -- but I saw the bet. Did Ecurb honor it? Pretty weak if not.

No he hasnt honored it yet. He's a weasel and is hoping that Schlegel fails the physical so he can worm out of the bet. Which was the point of the thread really.

[SouthernJet]

How many Ohio State games did you actually watch? One?

I am a Buckeye fan and based on what you wrote above know a good deal more about Ohio State Football and Football in General than you.

Your claim above is that Schlegel was only successful because Hawk and Carpenter were double teamed right. Who, exactly was double teaming these guys? O Linemen? You are saying that on most plays two offensive linemen were assigned to double team two Linebackers? Who then was blocking the 4 down linemen.

Now let me see how this would work:

The tackle on each end (since they were OLBs) would be assigned to block one of them each and then on the strong sid the tight end would help and on the weak side the fullback?, other tight end?, wide reciever? would help block the other. Leaving the two guards and the center to block 4 down linemen and Schlegel. Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard and I guarantee you as someone who has watched every Buckeye game since ESPN gameplan came into existence, that never happened.

You are a football moron and way out of your depth here. Stop talking about Ohio State Football now. You're way out of your depth sonny.

you truly are a know nothing OSU fan who was WRONG about tony boy from DAY ONE,, he is cut, he sucked, was overrated,, your protection of him doesnt change fact he sucked and was cut,,and by the way WRONGGUY (your new poster name),,double team by tight end or RB,,man, you know nothing ,,

[Gibbon]

Huh, and yet after all that both Carpenter and Hawk were ranked much higher than Schelegel coming into the draft. Go figure

No, it's not the coaches limiting his opportunities, it's the fact that he clearly did not shine when he was given the opportunity. The NFL, as is life, is all about taking advantage of limited opportunities. As I said before, I believe in a coaching staff that is willing to part ways with a mistake, regardless of what they paid for it.

Where did I say that Schlegel was better than Hawk or Carpenter? Those guys are phenomenal (though Carpenter isnt exactly tearing it up for Dallas). I was just refuting the idea that they made all the plays and he tagged along.

So you are saying that he didnt shine in the game against Philadelphia? That the fact that he only got to play two series per preseason game before that did nothing to limit his opportunities.

Has Vima shown in his 1+ season in the 3-4? Couldnt you argue that the team is making a mistake by continuing to think that he will be effective as an ILB in the 3-4? By your logic since Vilma has had hundreds of opportunities to prove he can be an effective 3-4 ILB and not been a succcess, shouldnt the coaching staff have acknowledged their mistake and moved on?

I like a staff that parts with its mistakes when they realize them too. I dont however support parting with a guy before you have given him the opportunity to prove that he wasnt a mistake in a game. Again, I'm talking about one series at LB in one game against top flight competition. A third round pick has to be worth at least that shot.

[Gibbon]

you truly are a know nothing OSU fan who was WRONG about tony boy from DAY ONE,, he is cut, he sucked, was overrated,, your protection of him doesnt change fact he sucked and was cut,,and by the way WRONGGUY (your new poster name),,double team by tight end or RB,,man, you know nothing ,,

Here's a clue for you junior. I know the scenario of double teams I described wouldnt work. I was highlighting how stupid your point that Hawk and Carpenter were both double teamed all the time was. Suppose, since you have all that football genius that you explain to me how a team doubles two linebackers on almost every play and has any success.

So now that you have realized that you are completely out classed when it comes to discussing OSU football you've gone back to your barely literate unsubstantiated issuing of blanket statements supported by nothing.

I must admit though you really burned me with that new poster name. . . WRONGGUY . . . man that was clever. I dont know how I'll recover from a shot like that. Man that one hurts. (This entire statement was an example of sarcasm. Look it up. Its in the dictionary. You know that big book with all the words in it.)

[JetCane]

[SouthernJet]

Here's a clue for you junior. I know the scenario of double teams I described wouldnt work. I was highlighting how stupid your point that Hawk and Carpenter were both double teamed all the time was. Suppose, since you have all that football genius that you explain to me how a team doubles two linebackers on almost every play and has any success.

So now that you have realized that you are completely out classed when it comes to discussing OSU football you've gone back to your barely literate unsubstantiated issuing of blanket statements supported by nothing.

I must admit though you really burned me with that new poster name. . . WRONGGUY . . . man that was clever. I dont know how I'll recover from a shot like that. Man that one hurts. (This entire statement was an example of sarcasm. Look it up. Its in the dictionary. You know that big book with all the words in it.)

uh,, 1 at a time skippy,, never both,,BUT NEVDER TONY,, so math says that over aseason,, ole Tony gets ZERO double teams , but the other guys share all the LB doubles,,man, you are clueless,,

pretty sad actually

[Gibbon]

Jetcane:

I dont understand what this has to do with this thread, but I like it. Thanks for helping me keep this thread near the top.

[JetCane]

Jetcane:

I dont understand what this has to do with this thread, but I like it. Thanks for helping me keep this thread near the top.

It's just a little break from the argument

Carry on

[Boozer76]

Where did I say that Schlegel was better than Hawk or Carpenter? Those guys are phenomenal (though Carpenter isnt exactly tearing it up for Dallas). I was just refuting the idea that they made all the plays and he tagged along.

So you are saying that he didnt shine in the game against Philadelphia? That the fact that he only got to play two series per preseason game before that did nothing to limit his opportunities.

Has Vima shown in his 1+ season in the 3-4? Couldnt you argue that the team is making a mistake by continuing to think that he will be effective as an ILB in the 3-4? By your logic since Vilma has had hundreds of opportunities to prove he can be an effective 3-4 ILB and not been a succcess, shouldnt the coaching staff have acknowledged their mistake and moved on?

I like a staff that parts with its mistakes when they realize them too. I dont however support parting with a guy before you have given him the opportunity to prove that he wasnt a mistake in a game. Again, I'm talking about one series at LB in one game against top flight competition. A third round pick has to be worth at least that shot.

Sure he shined vs PHI. CJ Mosely also looked like the next Warren Sapp. Against guys who will be flipping burgers, that proves that they are better than guys who flip burgers. That is all.

In case you haven't noticed, we drafted Harris. If Vilma doesn't start shining this season he's gonna lose playing time to Harris. And he won't be on the team next year either if he can't learn and be succssful in the 3-4. The only reason he gets a second chance is due to his immense talent, a luxury Schlegel doesn't have.

The bottom line is every player plays for that opportunity to get even just one series in a real NFL game when it counts. The ones that take advantage of their opportunities in practice are to ones that will get their moment in a real game. That's the end of story. Sure, maye Schelegel becomes the next Lawrence Taylor for CIN, hell mayeb he even becomes an average everyday starting ILB. But chances are he becomes nothing more than a journeyman who is going to see more cuts and training camps than he'd like. Being a 3rd round draft pick means nothing at all.

Darnell Bing was a fairly highly touted S from USC who was drafted in the early 4th round by OAK. In fact, most here flipped when we picked Eric Smith over him. He's already been cut by 2 teams. Should he get the benefit of the doubt as well? He had a hell of a college career.

[Gibbon]

uh,, 1 at a time skippy,, never both,,BUT NEVDER TONY,, so math says that over aseason,, ole Tony gets ZERO double teams , but the other guys share all the LB doubles,,man, you are clueless,,

pretty sad actually

Actually you are wrong. See the Buckeyes actually ran several blitz packages in which Schlegel and Hawk crossed and hit opposite side gaps. One would blitz first thus occupying the back or forcing a double team while the other, starting a beat later, would then be freed up to get the QB with little or no opposition. Because Hawk was/ is faster, Schlegel was normally the first guy, thus the guy more likely to face a double team.

Keep in mind that double teams in pass protection are usually situational -- you double whoever hits the most vulnerable gap or the best rushing D linemen. See, LBs dont blitz on every down. Now it is true that in 05 Carpenter did frequently line up as fifth down lineman and because of his speed and strength he was double teamed in passing situations. This usually benefited the other DE, Mike Kudla (take a look at his sack total) more than Schlegel or Hawk who were frequently in coverage in this situation.

See the problem with a planned double team of a linebacker is this. The only really effective blockers on your team that are lined up close enough to pull it off are the linemen and the tight end. But in the 4-3 (5-2) alignment the Buckeyes ran most often in 05 that means that to effectively double team a linebacker 2 of the six olinemen (I'm including the TE) had to run past a charging D lineman to seal off the LB. It is doubly difficult because being a linebackers they can choose to lineup or be lined up anywhere. So IF a team were double teaming Hawk lets say, the D coordinator could negate that double team by shifting the LBs alignment or switching the LBs.

One of the great things about the 05 Buckeye linebacking corps was that they were all smart, tough, experienced players and the coaching staff could trust them to run different stunts and present different fronts from week to week and therefor negate any plans to double team effectively any LB no matter how crazy that attempt might have been.

You dont know what you're talking about when it comes to Buckeye football. Please stop making me make you look like an idiot.

[DefenseWinsChampionships]

Hey I didn't read all this -- but I saw the bet. Did Ecurb honor it? Pretty weak if not.

It's now Official... ECurb is weak! If Max says ECurbs actions has been weak... Well then guess what? His actions have been weak.

Once again Ecurb, as a man... You only have 2 things, and thats your word and your balls.

[Boozer76]

Sure he shined vs PHI. CJ Mosely also looked like the next Warren Sapp. Against guys who will be flipping burgers, that proves that they are better than guys who flip burgers. That is all.

In case you haven't noticed, we drafted Harris. If Vilma doesn't start shining this season he's gonna lose playing time to Harris. And he won't be on the team next year either if he can't learn and be succssful in the 3-4. The only reason he gets a second chance is due to his immense talent, a luxury Schlegel doesn't have.

The bottom line is every player plays for that opportunity to get even just one series in a real NFL game when it counts. The ones that take advantage of their opportunities in practice are to ones that will get their moment in a real game. That's the end of story. Sure, maye Schelegel becomes the next Lawrence Taylor for CIN, hell mayeb he even becomes an average everyday starting ILB. But chances are he becomes nothing more than a journeyman who is going to see more cuts and training camps than he'd like. Being a 3rd round draft pick means nothing at all.

Darnell Bing was a fairly highly touted S from USC who was drafted in the early 4th round by OAK. In fact, most here flipped when we picked Eric Smith over him. He's already been cut by 2 teams. Should he get the benefit of the doubt as well? He had a hell of a college career.

On top of all the above, you should know by now that when you have players vying for he last position spot, the one who is better at special teams is going to win the position. Kassell is definitely an avg LB at best, but he was a heck of alot better at SpT's than anything Schlegel showed.

[flgreen]

I disagree with Gibbon's arguments 100%, but the fact of the matter is he won the bet..

Ecurb ya got to pay up

[Gibbon]

Sure he shined vs PHI. CJ Mosely also looked like the next Warren Sapp. Against guys who will be flipping burgers, that proves that they are better than guys who flip burgers. That is all.

In case you haven't noticed, we drafted Harris. If Vilma doesn't start shining this season he's gonna lose playing time to Harris. And he won't be on the team next year either if he can't learn and be succssful in the 3-4. The only reason he gets a second chance is due to his immense talent, a luxury Schlegel doesn't have.

The bottom line is every player plays for that opportunity to get even just one series in a real NFL game when it counts. The ones that take advantage of their opportunities in practice are to ones that will get their moment in a real game. That's the end of story. Sure, maye Schelegel becomes the next Lawrence Taylor for CIN, hell mayeb he even becomes an average everyday starting ILB. But chances are he becomes nothing more than a journeyman who is going to see more cuts and training camps than he'd like. Being a 3rd round draft pick means nothing at all.

Darnell Bing was a fairly highly touted S from USC who was drafted in the early 4th round by OAK. In fact, most here flipped when we picked Eric Smith over him. He's already been cut by 2 teams. Should he get the benefit of the doubt as well? He had a hell of a college career.

Didnt Mosely make the team? And, btw he and Devito did it against Max Jean Gilles who many here wanted the Jets to pick instead of Schlegel. Gilles played in zero games last year, but the Eagles coaching staff is apparently going to see if he can play this season.

If you think Vilma is going to lose significant time to Harris at LB that doesnt result from a trade you have forgotten that football is a business. The Jets cant sit Vilma because then one of their most valuable trading chips will lose most of his value. They have to play him until they trade him. Barton will lose snaps to Harris despite the fact that he has been more effective in the 3-4 than Vilma.

There is a deep flaw in your defense of Vilma by saying he needs time to learn the 3-4 and your condemnation of Schlegel. Since Vilma is the more talented and experienced shouldnt he have picked up the system by now? If he truly is a superstar whats taking so long. Everyone here seems willing to give Vilma as much time and as many reps as he needs as a starter before writing him off, but no one here (but me) thinks that maybe the Jets should have given Schlegel -- a rookie learning the 3-4 -- a couple of reps in a game before completely writing him off. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

Did Bing get to actually play his position in a game? If so then he is a bad example in support of your argument.

[ECURB]

You got your thread...

Enjoy it

[Gibbon]

On top of all the above, you should know by now that when you have players vying for he last position spot, the one who is better at special teams is going to win the position. Kassell is definitely an avg LB at best, but he was a heck of alot better at SpT's than anything Schlegel showed.

That may be true. Kassell certainly has a lot of experience as a ST player. But can you name one really good ST play? Wasnt he the guy last year that the ball bounced into on a punt or a kick off resulting in a turnover? Didnt he have a holding penalty called on him in ST last season resulting in a negated return for decent ydg? Didnt he get called for holding on an extra point attempt this preseason? Not exactly stellar.

Are you sure that this is worth completely throwing away a third round pick without giving him more of an opportunity to play?

[Boozer76]

Sure he shined vs PHI. CJ Mosely also looked like the next Warren Sapp. Against guys who will be flipping burgers, that proves that they are better than guys who flip burgers. That is all.

In case you haven't noticed, we drafted Harris. If Vilma doesn't start shining this season he's gonna lose playing time to Harris. And he won't be on the team next year either if he can't learn and be succssful in the 3-4. The only reason he gets a second chance is due to his immense talent, a luxury Schlegel doesn't have.

The bottom line is every player plays for that opportunity to get even just one series in a real NFL game when it counts. The ones that take advantage of their opportunities in practice are to ones that will get their moment in a real game. That's the end of story. Sure, maye Schelegel becomes the next Lawrence Taylor for CIN, hell mayeb he even becomes an average everyday starting ILB. But chances are he becomes nothing more than a journeyman who is going to see more cuts and training camps than he'd like. Being a 3rd round draft pick means nothing at all.

Darnell Bing was a fairly highly touted S from USC who was drafted in the early 4th round by OAK. In fact, most here flipped when we picked Eric Smith over him. He's already been cut by 2 teams. Should he get the benefit of the doubt as well? He had a hell of a college career.

Didnt Mosely make the team? And, btw he and Devito did it against Max Jean Gilles who many here wanted the Jets to pick instead of Schlegel. Gilles played in zero games last year, but the Eagles coaching staff is apparently going to see if he can play this season.

If you think Vilma is going to lose significant time to Harris at LB that doesnt result from a trade you have forgotten that football is a business. The Jets cant sit Vilma because then one of their most valuable trading chips will lose most of his value. They have to play him until they trade him. Barton will lose snaps to Harris despite the fact that he has been more effective in the 3-4 than Vilma.

There is a deep flaw in your defense of Vilma by saying he needs time to learn the 3-4 and your condemnation of Schlegel. Since Vilma is the more talented and experienced shouldnt he have picked up the system by now? If he truly is a superstar whats taking so long. Everyone here seems willing to give Vilma as much time and as many reps as he needs as a starter before writing him off, but no one here (but me) thinks that maybe the Jets should have given Schlegel -- a rookie learning the 3-4 -- a couple of reps in a game before completely writing him off. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

Did Bing get to actually play his position in a game? If so then he is a bad example in support of your argument.

Again, you completely disregard where I already answered your question. Vilma is immensely more talented than Schlegel. He gets to have a bigger chance than Schlegel. That's life.

So your argument is all draft picks, at least first day draft picks deserve to see real NFL action as a starter simply based off their draft position?

[Boozer76]

That may be true. Kassell certainly has a lot of experience as a ST player. But can you name one really good ST play? Wasnt he the guy last year that the ball bounced into on a punt or a kick off resulting in a turnover? Didnt he have a holding penalty called on him in ST last season resulting in a negated return for decent ydg? Didnt he get called for holding on an extra point attempt this preseason? Not exactly stellar.

Are you sure that this is worth completely throwing away a third round pick without giving him more of an opportunity to play?

No, our coaching staff felt that, at best, Schlegel and Kassell were comparable at LB. Maybe Schlegel was even slightly better at LB, who knows. But it wasn't so much better that it negated the large gap between them on SpT's.

And in your dispute that maybe Kassell isn't better at special Teams, I'll gladly defer to the opinion of the best SpT's coach in the league right now, if not ever.

[Gibbon]

Again, you completely disregard where I already answered your question. Vilma is immensely more talented than Schlegel. He gets to have a bigger chance than Schlegel. That's life.

So your argument is all draft picks, at least first day draft picks deserve to see real NFL action as a starter simply based off their draft position?

And you completely disregard the illogic of saying that the more talented player deserves every opportunity and the less talented player deserves no opportunity.

I think that a wise team, that drafts a guy on the first day, would at least try to find out how that player played his position in a real game, before cutting him when, in the game opportunities he has been given he has played well.

[Gibbon]

No, our coaching staff felt that, at best, Schlegel and Kassell were comparable at LB. Maybe Schlegel was even slightly better at LB, who knows. But it wasn't so much better that it negated the large gap between them on SpT's.

And in your dispute that maybe Kassell isn't better at special Teams, I'll gladly defer to the opinion of the best SpT's coach in the league right now, if not ever.

Westhoff is the best. But if he has the final say in terms of personnel decisions then the Jets are putting the cart before the horse.

[flgreen]

Westhoff is the best. But if he has the final say in terms of personnel decisions then the Jets are putting the cart before the horse.

He certainly doesn't have the final word, but I think Mangini respects him a lot, and he has a great deal of impact on the final cuts.

That's how it should be.

[Boozer76]

And you completely disregard the illogic of saying that the more talented player deserves every opportunity and the less talented player deserves no opportunity.

I think that a wise team, that drafts a guy on the first day, would at least try to find out how that player played his position in a real game, before cutting him when, in the game opportunities he has been given he has played well.

Vilma poved he is a probowl LB in a 4-3. With his talent and speed he's oing to get ALOT more opportunity than Schlegel. That's as obvious as apple pie, if you can't at least reasonably understand that then there's no reason for debate.

A wise team that drafts a first day player is wise to let that player go if they can clearly see

that player is not good enough to make the team based on practice efforts. An unwise team forces said player into the starting lineup for nothing more than sheer stubborness that they feel they must justify that the pick was valid.

I get that you like the guy as an OSU fan. That's fine. But making some ridiculos claim that the Jets made some monumental mistake by cutting him is ridiculous.

[Gibbon]

Vilma poved he is a probowl LB in a 4-3. With his talent and speed he's oing to get ALOT more opportunity than Schlegel. That's as obvious as apple pie, if you can't at least reasonably understand that then there's no reason for debate.

A wise team that drafts a first day player is wise to let that player go if they can clearly see

that player is not good enough to make the team based on practice efforts. An unwise team forces said player into the starting lineup for nothing more than sheer stubborness that they feel they must justify that the pick was valid.

I get that you like the guy as an OSU fan. That's fine. But making some ridiculos claim that the Jets made some monumental mistake by cutting him is ridiculous.

Ok, you have mischaracterized any number of the things I have stated in an attempt to make it appear that my points have no merit.

First, of course Vilma should be given more opportunities, but should the guy who you would admit will have a harder time learning to be successful in the system be given ZERO opportunities to play his position in games? I am arguing that Schlegel deserved a chance (one series even) in a real game to prove whether he could or could not play. This after he proved that he could play effectively when given the chance to play in preseason.

Second, a wise team doesnt draft a guy with a third and then let him go without letting him play the position he was drafted to play in a real game one time before letting him go. Its not stubborness, its good business. Would it really have hurt the team to let Schlegel play the last two series or so at LB in the Packers game? Or the game against the Texans. He was on the dress list those weeks. Why not, in blow out wins, put him on the field at LB and see how he looked.

Third, I never said it was a monumental mistake. I said I thought it was a mistake. And, I do. The Jets will not lose games this season because he is gone. But, if Schlegel sticks as even a back up in Cincy and the Jets find themselves in the position of having to draft a third ILB in three years in next years draft or resign an aging Barton or mediocre Kassell, their decision to draft Schlegel and then cut him will seem like an foolish extravagance.

[Gibbon]

He certainly doesn't have the final word, but I think Mangini respects him a lot, and he has a great deal of impact on the final cuts.

That's how it should be.

Of course you are assuming (as I initially did) that Mangini looked at Westhoff and said ok, you can keep either Kassell or Schlegel which do you want and that Westhoff said Schlegel. Given the choice based on experience I'm sure Westhoff would have said Kassell.

But, since by most reports Westhoff liked Schlegel, it is just as likely that Westhoff said I want Schlegel, but the decison to keep Ryan, Kowalewski, and Posciack led Mangini said I need 4 TEs you cant have both. Or I need 6 CBs you cant have both.

Cut decisions are rarely as black and white as most here would like to think and they often have more to do with the needs on O and D than with a straight up positional competition.

[Boozer76]

Third, I never said it was a monumental mistake. I said I thought it was a mistake. And, I do. The Jets will not lose games this season because he is gone. But, if Schlegel sticks as even a back up in Cincy and the Jets find themselves in the position of having to draft a third ILB in three years in next years draft or resign an aging Barton or mediocre Kassell, their decision to draft Schlegel and then cut him will seem like an foolish extravagance.

No, if they daft an ILB it will be to replace Vilma as a starter, something Schlegel was never going to do.

[MasonJet]

I can't believe Gibbon has wasted this much time defending a practice squad player.

If he was good enough to make the team, he would have made the team. But he's not, so he didn't

/thread

[Gibbon]

I can't believe Gibbon has wasted this much time defending a practice squad player.

If he was good enough to make the team, he would have made the team. But he's not, so he didn't

/thread

You're a little late to the dance Mason.

First, I started the thread to get ecurb to pay up. He did. Others then took it upon themselves to chime and attack Schlegel (at least I think thats how it went I have a hard time remembering since I've been posting so much. How do you do it ecurb.)

As a correction. Schlegel was signed to the Bengals 53 man roster. Not their practice squad. So technically you are wrong to call him a practice squad player.

[MasonJet]

You're a little late to the dance Mason.

First, I started the thread to get ecurb to pay up. He did. Others then took it upon themselves to chime and attack Schlegel (at least I think thats how it went I have a hard time remembering since I've been posting so much. How do you do it ecurb.)

As a correction. Schlegel was signed to the Bengals 53 man roster. Not their practice squad. So technically you are wrong to call him a practice squad player.

BFD. Maybe he'll make a few special teams tackles this year. But he's not on the Jets anymore b/c he wasn't good enough, so who gives a sh!t?

[Gibbon]

BFD. Maybe he'll make a few special teams tackles this year. But he's not on the Jets anymore b/c he wasn't good enough, so who gives a sh!t?

We'll see. I've just got a hunch that at some point this season someone on the Jets coaching staff has at least the momentary thought, "Man I wish we had kept Schlegel." Laugh if you want. Its just a hunch.