lancemehl hates the 3-4 [MERGED 6X]

[JetCane]

If you watched the games you'd note that we often play 4-3 and that if your plan is to simply have Thomas put his hand in the dirt THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. It's the same 11 guys and with Thomas at DE and Barton at OLB THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE

BT putting his hand down is NOT a 4-3.

Playing Ellis and Kenyon at DE, with two legit DTs (from D-ROB, Pouha, Mosley, DeVito) is more of a 4-3 DL.

Harris, Vilma and Hobson at LB rotating with Barton with a more legit DL is more of a 4-3.

[Sperm Edwards]

You are wrong. We do not have a great defense period. Last year we were sixth in points allowed. SIXTH! I don't know about you, but that's how I rate defenses. Some of that was the schedule and they certainly weren't dominant, but I'm willing to forgive some growing pains since they obviously did a decent job with similar players last year.

Every player on the team is not a bust, but they are not going to suddenly break out and become monsters because we switch to 4-3. IMO Vilma is not a stud. Just a nice little player. Who cares where they were drafted? Barton, Coleman, Dyson, were all FAs. Revis is the only one you list that's a pick of this adminstration and he, Dyson and Coleman the only ones they chose. Note, they all seem to perform well in the system.

If you watched the games you'd note that we often play 4-3 and that if your plan is to simply have Thomas put his hand in the dirt THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. It's the same 11 guys and with Thomas at DE and Barton at OLB THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE

Exactly. It's the same seven players, so how they are going to find it easier to get the QB in the 4-3? I think the "Vilma needs protection" argument for the running game is a crock but at least it has some logic behind it. How many sacks did any of these guys get in the 4-3? Your only possible point would be that guys like Bowens and Ellis *might* get to the qb, but I haven't seen anything from either to indicate that the scheme is holding them back. They will have the same opportunity to get to the QB since they send 4-5 guys most every play anyway. I can see complaining about Sutton and saying the blitz packages and calls are poorly conceived because it's not working now, but the 3-4 is not the problem. The main difference in getting to the qb is the loss of JAbe who most of these guys hated anyway.

Actually, they chose other guys as well. Those 3 are merely the best of the bunch. They also chose Kimo, Mosely, Chatham, Kassell, and Poteat (off the top of my head).

Abraham was a playmaker. He was also an unreliable playmaker (just ask a fan of the 2006 Falcons or one of a few Jets' seasons). He was tried as a standing-up pass-rusher under Donnie & he was lousy. No. Abe is an effective pass-rusher with his hand in the dirt, particularly against lesser-mobile left tackles. Suggesting he would have suddenly been a non-liability on 50% of the downs (running plays), as well as passing plays where he is covering a TE or a FB instead of rushing the passer, is an optimistic guess. Oh - and a $45M contract to boot.

His presence also would have left us with a hole at center, where our only dependable lineman (who is signed for cheap $) is located.

The lack of a true 3-4 NT is hampering this defense more than many realize, no matter how many times DRob's name is mentioned in derogatory fashion. Combine that with a puny ILB behind him, and it is an outright handicap to this defense, greater than that of our OLB'ers. Not that we couldn't use a Merriman opposite Thomas, but we still wouldn't be able to stop the run up the middle even if we had him.

My issue is not merely that we're running a 3-4 defense without a true NT, but rather that we don't have anyone adequate lining up at zero in EITHER front. Our up-the-gut run defense would suck either way. The last time we had an effective run defense was because we had Fergie in there, not because of the sheer # of down linemen. With linemen, like many other things, quantity does not equate to quality. This is my issue with Mangini; the lack of ANY space-eater anchoring the middle of the line, regardless of the scheme. Because we're no more effective stopping the run right now when we show 4-man fronts, as you've pointed out.

[#27TheDominator]

BT putting his hand down is NOT a 4-3.

Playing Ellis and Kenyon at DE, with two legit DTs (from D-ROB, Pouha, Mosley, DeVito) is more of a 4-3 DL.

Harris, Vilma and Hobson at LB rotating with Barton with a more legit DL is more of a 4-3.

..but BT with his hand down is the "great 4-3" that we ran with Herm! Sure we had two DTs, but for some of that time Ellis was at DT and he's less a legit DT than Coleman.

I agree that with Mosley or Pouha might be more of a "legit" 4-3, but it's not far from the BS cover-2 that Herm ran. Also, even if you love the Jets players, Mosley and Pouha are JAGs and I'd rather have two of the LBs on the field than add one of them.

Coleman would probably be a crappy 4-3 DE since his main purpose is to two gap. IF I decided to go 4-3 I'd probably go with Ellis/Thomas at DE, Mosley/DRob at DT with Vilma/Harris @ MLB (not sure how Harris will fit in the 4-3) and Barton WLB and Hobson on the strong side. I know you like DeVito, but I don't see him getting much time this year no matter what the system-he's a project. Bowens doing some work at DE would be the one big upside I'd see at 4-3. He looks kind of lost at LB.

[Sperm Edwards]

Bowens doing some work at DE would be the one big upside I'd see at 4-3. He looks kind of lost at LB.

Yet it is assumed by some that Abraham would not have looked lost at LB.

[JetCane]

..but BT with his hand down is the "great 4-3" that we ran with Herm! Sure we had two DTs, but for some of that time Ellis was at DT and he's less a legit DT than Coleman.

I agree that with Mosley or Pouha might be more of a "legit" 4-3, but it's not far from the BS cover-2 that Herm ran. Also, even if you love the Jets players, Mosley and Pouha are JAGs and I'd rather have two of the LBs on the field than add one of them.

Coleman would probably be a crappy 4-3 DE since his main purpose is to two gap. IF I decided to go 4-3 I'd probably go with Ellis/Thomas at DE, Mosley/DRob at DT with Vilma/Harris @ MLB (not sure how Harris will fit in the 4-3) and Barton WLB and Hobson on the strong side. I know you like DeVito, but I don't see him getting much time this year no matter what the system-he's a project. Bowens doing some work at DE would be the one big upside I'd see at 4-3. He looks kind of lost at LB.

You said yesterday that you think D-Rob is better than most people think, and that others overrate the talent in the 4-3.

I disagee and think the opposite. I'm with Spermie that the Jets have failed to obtain a legit guy in the middle, and I think their talent is better suited for a 4-3 right now.

If Mangini wants to EVENTUALLY convert to a 3-4, then assemble the players that fit that scheme. Since many think the solution is to get rid of those who dont fit the scheme, i think it is very unwise to continue to play them in positions where they are fish out of water. Bad planning on the part of the CS.

[Sperm Edwards]

You said yesterday that you think D-Rob is better than most people think, and that others overrate the talent in the 4-3.

I disagee and think the opposite. I'm with Spermie that the Jets have failed to obtain a legit guy in the middle, and I think their talent is better suited for a 4-3 right now.

If Mangini wants to EVENTUALLY convert to a 3-4, then assemble the players that fit that scheme. Since many think the solution is to get rid of those who dont fit the scheme, i think it is very unwise to continue to play them in positions where they are fish out of water. Bad planning on the part of the CS.

"Bad" planning is being too kind. Given that he was a DC in the 3-4, it was outright incompetent planning & he should have known better.

Even if they didn't want to overspend on a mediocre NT, not even taking ONE as a draft prospect is inexcusable. You can sell me on a draft-day selection of D'Brick over Ngata. Even back then, a year & a half before we released him without seeing any game action, you couldn't sell me on Schlegel over Gabe Watson. Even if Watson didn't pan out, the lack of foresight to even bring in someone with a rare size + athleticism combination in favor of majorly reaching for a minimally-talented lummox of an ILB was inexcusable.

[#27TheDominator]

You said yesterday that you think D-Rob is better than most people think, and that others overrate the talent in the 4-3.

I disagee and think the opposite. I'm with Spermie that the Jets have failed to obtain a legit guy in the middle, and I think their talent is better suited for a 4-3 right now.

If Mangini wants to EVENTUALLY convert to a 3-4, then assemble the players that fit that scheme. Since many think the solution is to get rid of those who dont fit the scheme, i think it is very unwise to continue to play them in positions where they are fish out of water. Bad planning on the part of the CS.

Legit points. It may better suit the 4-3. I think I actually was on this bandwagon last year. Thing is, they did pretty well in points allowed last year which is the #1 yardstick. It's not the be-all end-all because sometimes they still couldn't/can't get teams off the field when they have to. I am a much bigger fan of using the players that you have, but the Jets were a crappy team that quit in '05 and then had their coach quit on them and could start from the ground up.

Yet it is assumed by some that Abraham would not have looked lost at LB.

Is this a crack because I think he's talented? Not sure, but I think he'd be much superior at OLB than Bryan Thomas and Bowens and even if he weren't he'd be a hell of a lot better at getting to the passer. Still happy with moving him, I just think he was the only true impact player on that D.

"Bad" planning is being too kind. Given that he was a DC in the 3-4, it was outright incompetent planning & he should have known better.

Even if they didn't want to overspend on a mediocre NT, not even taking ONE as a draft prospect is inexcusable. You can sell me on a draft-day selection of D'Brick over Ngata. Even back then, a year & a half before we released him without seeing any game action, you couldn't sell me on Schlegel over Gabe Watson. Even if Watson didn't pan out, the lack of foresight to even bring in someone with a rare size + athleticism combination in favor of majorly reaching for a minimally-talented lummox of an ILB was inexcusable.

I agree completely. Even if they are in love with DRob at the nose, there has been nobody brought in for competition or to give him a breather. If he gets hurt we are either dead or he wasn't very good in the first place. I would have supported a shotgun approach of stiffs. Kind of what they did at DE/OLB this past year. Get a lot of **** and hope some sticks. The FO seems to have an aversion to spending. That can be good if we can use the cap space to our advantage, but with the new cap I think we are using "old think" while the Pats scoop up all the loot.

The only defense for Schlegel over Watson is that they apparently think they need a thumper ILB, presumably to team with small/fast Vilma. That's probably the point of reaching for Schlegel and then trading up for Harris. I guess they think that will solve the DRob problem. They are probably wrong, but that's probably the rationale.

I don't blindly defend this FO. I have problems with this D. I'm not even a fan of the 3-4. I like attacking D's with a lot of man coverage. OTOH, don't assert that the Jets were awesome in the 4-3, as if they can magically switch back and suddenly be the '85 Bears. Switching back would solve some problems and create others. I tend to think that it would hurt more than help, plus set a bad precedent for the coaching staff.

[Sperm Edwards]

I had no issue with switching to the 3-4 b/c it's not like he took over a team that was expected to be anything resembling a SB contender for the next 2 years no matter what. It's not like switching a contender-right-now 3-4 team to the cover-2.

I don't buy the "it probably hurt him to go 10-6 right away" in that it somehow raised the expectation-bar. If anything it helped. If we were 6-10 last year & then got off to a 1-3 start in '07, he'd be under a hell of a lot more pressure right now.

Maybe it's just that it's difficult to be patient b/c this team hasn't had to go through a major rebuilding/dismantling for a long time.

Still would have preferred a NT as one of the earlier-acquired building blocks rather than a mad scramble to find one (and then immediately acclimate him to the defense) going into year three.

[Barton]

Apparently, the dumbest move Mangini & co. ever made was getting us to the playoffs last year. This is a rebuilding team. It takes time to build a contender. It takes time to switch a system.

But because they managed to do really well last year (even with a soft schedule, that came as a lightning bolt from a clear sky) everyone is now demanding that we make the playoffs and play great fotball?

Going back to 4-3 is not a magic, instant fix solution. Pursue the right players with determination, and send the players that don't fit packing.

hahaha. I said this in the offseason and I was killed for it. But it is true.

The people who were slapping themself silly over "Man-Genius!!!" are now bailing on him. It's pretty funny. I know I have criticized Mangini on the QB situation right now, but I still have alot of confidence that he will rebuild this team to a SB contender in a few years.

[JetCane]

I am a much bigger fan of using the players that you have, but the Jets were a crappy team that quit in '05 and then had their coach quit on them and could start from the ground up.

That goes back to the one failure some of us have pointed out- building a 3-4 requires a NT. That would be better building from the ground up.