piney Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Here is a Newsday article that was pretty interesting: http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-sprieber0209,0,5327125.column A-Rod should be in Cooperstown Anthony Rieber OK, I give up. Uncle, uncle. It's not that the SI.com report that Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003 is a big shock. Nothing about baseball and steroids can be considered a big shock anymore. What I give up on is the notion that these revelations are ever going to stop. We have the dirty 103 -- the other players along with A-Rod who are supposed to have failed tests in 2003. Those names are just sitting on some government clerk's desktop, just waiting to be discovered by hungry investigative reporters. I also give up on the notion that baseball writers who vote for the Hall of Fame should continue to play the "who's clean, who's dirty" game. Let's face it, other than ruining their reputations, and maybe sending one or two of them to jail for perjury, there's really nothing we can do to Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire or Roger Clemens or A-Rod except deny them a baseball player's ultimate honor: a plaque in Cooperstown. I don't think we should deny them that honor. I think we should let them all in. And if you give me a few minutes, I'll tell you why. As a member of the Baseball Writers Association of America since 2004, I am not yet eligible to vote for the Hall of Fame. That doesn't stop me from filling out a ballot in my head every year, just as I'm sure you do as well. I will be eligible to vote for the Hall class of 2014, assuming I don't have a midlife change of career or the rotten economy doesn't give me one against my will. That means players who retired at the end of the 2008 season, such as Jeff Kent, will be first-time eligible on that ballot. Clemens and Bonds, assuming they don't play again and don't get in to the Hall when they are first eligible in 2013, will be on that ballot, too. At this point, I plan on voting for Clemens and Bonds. (Not McGwire, because I don't think he's a Hall of Famer anyway, so there's no steroid debate for me with him.) And when A-Rod's name comes on the ballot, whatever year that will end up being, I plan on voting for him, too, even if he breaks down at a news conference next week and admits sticking needles in his tush every year of his career. Why? It's simple: We just will never know who did and who didn't take steroids and HGH during the home-run happy 1990s and 2000s. Heck, we will never know who is and who isn't taking steroids and HGH today, since there is no test for HGH. We can guess, and speculate, and wait for the revelations, and weigh the denials and the admissions, and play judge and jury with only a few facts at our disposal. Here's the problem I have with that, and have for a long time before Saturday's A-Rod explosion: What about the guys who got away with it? What about the guys who cheated from Day One, had Hall of Fame careers, retired, and were never caught? And will never be caught? If you think hard, I'm sure you can think of one or two, a player who if you had a gun to your head you would swear took steroids, but has never been linked in any tangible way. Those guys will get rewarded for being better cheaters than Bonds and Clemens and, apparently, A-Rod. For having the brains to stay away from lowlifes like Kirk Radomski and Greg Anderson and Brian McNamee and Jose Canseco. I double-dog guarantee you that one year a new Hall of Famer who got away with it will stand up at his induction speech and everyone will celebrate how he did it the clean way, and we will never know the truth. That he wasn't clean at all. Here's what I know: With or without steroids, Alex Rodriguez and Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were three of the greatest players in baseball history. They competed at a time when a good number of players opposing them were also using steroids, and they were still by far the best. Now, if I can only figure out what to do about Pete Rose. Check back with me in 2014 on that one. any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A good read. Steroids has become a media circle jerk. I don't need another 72 self-righteous pointless Mike Lupica columns about it. And it's an excuse for prosecutors and politicians to get on a soap box and make names for themselves. Please tell me all our other problems have been solved. If you care about the childen, please do 2 things above all else-keep these crazy terrorists from killing them, and stop bankrupting the government with crazy spending programs that will burden them with huge debt. I'll raise my kids, not any ballpayer. I'm at a loss why or how anyone in gvoernment sees this as a priority, and in many ways that goes for the whole war on drugs. It would be better if these guys didn't cheat, but that ship has sailed. Some of the naivete and hypocrisy of the media is astounding. I can recall many of the same people breaking out their rhetorical hairshirts today are the same who couldn't celebrate McGWire and Sosa enough, who couldn't wait to vote gritty Ken Caminiti as NL MVP, who still talk about Olympic athletes like gods. Do you think Usain Bolt or some of these swimmers and runners are pure as driven snow? And in 1998 it was great for business to pretend these guys were "clean";what is clean?One look at McGwire back then if you've been in any gym in America for more than 10 seconds told you it wasn't totally natural. But back then to Lupica, Costas, Joe Buck et al, McGwire was the All American Boy and Sosa his Latino sidekick. Were these media guys conceived immaculately and born last night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I agree fully with letting them in. If they didn't let them in, then I say they go back in time and reevaluate history's cheaters and non-cheaters. I wish other industries got exposed as much as the sports industry/sports industries. This isn't news breaking stuff when you think about it, but our job isn't to think what we're not told to think is it? Theres a whole sh*tload of people in sports that should be kicked out if we're trying to weed our cheaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I'm not sure I buy his reasoning, but I agree that they should be let in. I think MLB in general is as much to blame as they were, so I don't think that MLB should act like it's too good for those players by not letting them in the HOF. I also think both Sosa and McGwire should be voted in. The impact that HR race had puts any borderline career numbers over the top, imo. All with asterisks, along with Bonds, Clemens, ARoid, IRod, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeShelter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Interesting and I somewhat agree in that the entire era is tainted so let these guys in the HOF. History should simply document the last 15 years or so as the roids era much like it has the dead ball era and so on. Fans can then have a idea of what numbers obtained during that time mean to them and decide for themselves what they think about the players and their stats. I do wonder though where ALL these "it's ok now " guys were during the Bonds witch hunt. Even during the Giambi fall from grace for that matter, although the Yankee media machine played off a half apology as walking on water. It was considered absolutey a high crime for Bonds to pass Babe Ruth ( a outstanding character in his own right) but now many of the Bonds haters are tripping over each other in their attempts to explain away our last few big name busts who happen to wear a certain uniform. Part of the Bond's hatred was attributed to his demeanoor and off the field infidelities etc,. Are Clemens and ARod any different in those areas? The era should simply be noted as the illegal enhancements era in the historical record books concerning the game with the real losers being the clean players and the fans. When accused and if true, said player should simply come clean....it's not like it was just him trying to gain a advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Interesting and I somewhat agree in that the entire era is tainted so let these guys in the HOF. History should simply document the last 15 years or so as the roids era much like it has the dead ball era and so on. Fans can then have a idea of what numbers obtained during that time mean to them and decide for themselves what they think about the players and their stats. I do wonder though where ALL these "it's ok now " guys were during the Bonds witch hunt. Even during the Giambi fall from grace for that matter, although the Yankee media machine played off a half apology as walking on water. It was considered absolutey a high crime for Bonds to pass Babe Ruth ( a outstanding character in his own right) but now many of the Bonds haters are tripping over each other in their attempts to explain away our last few big name busts who happen to wear a certain uniform. Part of the Bond's hatred was attributed to his demeanoor and off the field infidelities etc,. Are Clemens and ARod any different in those areas? The era should simply be noted as the illegal enhancements era in the historical record books concerning the game with the real losers being the clean players and the fans. When accused and if true, said player should simply come clean....it's not like it was just him trying to gain a advantage. Bonds is s a scumbag and a nasty jerk. But to think that our government thinks it appropriate to prosecute him for this boggles the mind. Clearly A-rod and Clemens are probably not running for world's great human either.But as with Bonds, that's not what they're paid to do. And if I hear another media person talk about the children looking up to then, I will throw my remote through the TV. If American kids get more of their cues from athletes and emtertainers than their parents, friend, teachers and coaches, we have much bigger problems than PEDs in sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Here is a Newsday article that was pretty interesting: http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-sprieber0209,0,5327125.column any thoughts? yeah......caught cheating means: no HOF induction. there are plenty of people who have gotten away with crimes like murder, robbery, rape. does that mean we should let the ones who got caught free just because they weren't better criminals than the ones who were able to get away with it? what kind of lesson are you teaching when you bestow such an honor on a known cheater? fu*k them all...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Bonds is s a scumbag and a nasty jerk. But to think that our government thinks it appropriate to prosecute him for this boggles the mind. Clearly A-rod and Clemens are probably not running for world's great human either.But as with Bonds, that's not what they're paid to do. And if I hear another media person talk about the children looking up to then, I will throw my remote through the TV. If American kids get more of their cues from athletes and emtertainers than their parents, friend, teachers and coaches, we have much bigger problems than PEDs in sports. no but kids do look up to these people too. if a kid dreams of being a baseball player one day he might look up to a great player like rodriguez or clemens. if a kid dreams of being president he might look up to bush or obama. so what you say makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbro22 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 no but kids do look up to these people too. if a kid dreams of being a baseball player one day he might look up to a great player like rodriguez or clemens. if a kid dreams of being president he might look up to bush or obama. so what you say makes no sense. I do agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 no but kids do look up to these people too. if a kid dreams of being a baseball player one day he might look up to a great player like rodriguez or clemens. if a kid dreams of being president he might look up to bush or obama. so what you say makes no sense.And someday soon the children realize the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are also bullspit. And a decade or so after that lose their virginity. If you think holding athletes up as role models is an important part of parenting(or any meaningful part), you aren't much of a parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeebers Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Here is a Newsday article that was pretty interesting: http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-sprieber0209,0,5327125.column any thoughts? Its an interesting read, but his premise is silly and not well thought out. There is no question that there are juice guys that are in the hall or are getting in and ones that have not been and never will be caught. However letting juice guys based on the idea that there are others who are in because they haven't been caught is dumb. Look at it this way, this country is based on innocent until proven guilty. If we go buy the writers premises, you might as well let some rapists, molesters, criminals, etc out of prison because there are a whole lot of them running free. That type of theory doesn't fly. There are ****ty human beings that are in the hall of fame, but they are there because they performed well on the field not necessary in life. The HoF is just that, guys that are great players, and being a great person is 2 totally different issues. Becoming a great player because you are cheating to get there, that's another story. If the writers put these guys in, all you are doing is encouraging guys to keep juicing, especially the big name guys who care about their legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 And someday soon the children realize the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are also bullspit. And a decade or so after that lose their virginity. If you think holding athletes up as role models is an important part of parenting(or any meaningful part), you aren't much of a parent. wtf are you talking about? when did i ever say i push my kids to look up to athletes as an integral part of my parenting them? do you talk out of your a*s in real life or is this just somehting you have the balls to do on a keyboard. i'll be damned if i'm gonna sit here and have some dipsh*t like you put words in my mouth and then tell me i'm not much of a parent. you don't know a fu*kin thing about who i am or what i do. i do know one thing, if you said some sh*t like this to me in person you'd be eating your fu*king teeth you stupid fu*k. keep running your c*ck sucker dipsh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrissey Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 wtf are you talking about? when did i ever say i push my kids to look up to athletes as an integral part of my parenting them? do you talk out of your a*s in real life or is this just somehting you have the balls to do on a keyboard. i'll be damned if i'm gonna sit here and have some dipsh*t like you put words in my mouth and then tell me i'm not much of a parent. you don't know a fu*kin thing about who i am or what i do. i do know one thing, if you said some sh*t like this to me in person you'd be eating your fu*king teeth you stupid fu*k. keep running your c*ck sucker dipsh*t. Hahaha Neck is ready to throw down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Hahaha Neck is ready to throw down. i have custody of my 2 sons and i work hard to take care of them by myself......no way in hell am i gonna sit here and let some assclown who doesn't even know me tell me i'm not much of a parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisaynon Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 He shouldn't be in the hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 yeah......caught cheating means: no HOF induction. there are plenty of people who have gotten away with crimes like murder, robbery, rape. does that mean we should let the ones who got caught free just because they weren't better criminals than the ones who were able to get away with it? what kind of lesson are you teaching when you bestow such an honor on a known cheater? fu*k them all...... well, then have the same outrage and outcome for all cheaters... Start with Gaylord Perry, Yogi Berra and Whitey Ford... Perry used an illegal pitch...and Berra used to dig indents into the ball using his ring when Ford pitched... everyone kind of looks at those stories in a "aww shucks, great baseball character story" kind of way. If we are going to ban cheaters from the hall then ban all forms of cheating, not just PEDs.... also, do you ban PEDs from when MLB made a rule against them? or is it because it was illegal? Then you have a lot more people to throw out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Its an interesting read, but his premise is silly and not well thought out. There is no question that there are juice guys that are in the hall or are getting in and ones that have not been and never will be caught. However letting juice guys based on the idea that there are others who are in because they haven't been caught is dumb. Look at it this way, this country is based on innocent until proven guilty. If we go buy the writers premises, you might as well let some rapists, molesters, criminals, etc out of prison because there are a whole lot of them running free. That type of theory doesn't fly. There are ****ty human beings that are in the hall of fame, but they are there because they performed well on the field not necessary in life. The HoF is just that, guys that are great players, and being a great person is 2 totally different issues. Becoming a great player because you are cheating to get there, that's another story. If the writers put these guys in, all you are doing is encouraging guys to keep juicing, especially the big name guys who care about their legacy. but, if they can't prove he used PEDs after MLB banned the substance, then how do you justify keeping him out.. by the letter of the law, he broke no rules... unless you think guys who do something illegal is HOF ban-worthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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