Big game players vs. Big name players

[StillerPaul]

I've read alot of posts about upper echelon players having sub-par numbers in big games lately. I'm curious as hell as to how you guys feel about a player that is considered one of the best at his position, but seemingly has his worst games in the PO's etc.

For instance, Jerome Bettis is on his way to Canton, OH. Yet he has never had a dominating performance in the playoffs. Does that diminish his career in you folks eyes? I've heard some folks say the same about Curtis Martin.

To me, it's all circumstance related. I firmly believe that a player still has to be put in a favorable situation to excel in big games. But i cannot honestly say that it is a complete necessity for that to happen.

I suppose a few players have been able to raise their level of play in big games dispite perfect conditions etc., but how much of that depends on situations he's put in or how much luck is actually involved?

[l_j_r]

... my take is the running games of the jets & steelers over the last couple of years have been our greatest strengths...

... as the competition goes up, so does the stature of the defenses that are being faced...

... a good coach with talented players is going to set up their defense to stop your greatest asset ...

... a good offensive coordinator should be able to use your other weapons and find creative ways to get c-mart or bettis in good position to excel ... then once your team is in a good position & the defense tired ... go back to ramming it down their throats between the tackles...

l_j_r

[RichardSeymour]

To some extent yes, particularly for QBs though.

[Rob D]

... a good coach with talented players is going to set up their defense to stop your greatest asset ...

Agreed. For example, if a team has good CBs (as play-off teams usually do) they can afford to bring the safeties up in run support.

[StillerPaul]

... my take is the running games of the jets & steelers over the last couple of years have been our greatest strengths...

... as the competition goes up, so does the stature of the defenses that are being faced...

... a good coach with talented players is going to set up their defense to stop your greatest asset ...

... a good offensive coordinator should be able to use your other weapons and find creative ways to get c-mart or bettis in good position to excel ... then once your team is in a good position & the defense tired ... go back to ramming it down their throats between the tackles...

l_j_r

Good post. So it basically depends on gameplanning and how a coach utilizes his players no matter how many percieved "Superstars" ya have eh?

[PFSIKH]

Yes.

What has Bus done to make him stand out?

He does not have running ability or sick moves like Barry or Walter.

He does not have the greatest numbers like Emmitt as one of his peers, Cyrtis Martin, has been equally consistent.

He also does not have the moments in the playoffs like Emmitt did against the Giants with a busted shoulder.

Should the Bus be considered an alltime great? IMHO, No.

Being a relative healthy back that churns out 3.9 yards a carry for 12+ years should not make you an alltime great.

[Jetsfan80]

Yes.

What has Bus done to make him stand out?

He does not have running ability or sick moves like Barry or Walter.

He does not have the greatest numbers like Emmitt as one of his peers, Cyrtis Martin, has been equally consistent.

He also does not have the moments in the playoffs like Emmitt did against the Giants with a busted shoulder.

Should the Bus be considered an alltime great? IMHO, No.

Being a relative healthy back that churns out 3.9 yards a carry for 12+ years should not make you an alltime great.

Being able to stay in the NFL as a starting RB for 12+ years is an accomplishment on its own. You can count on one hand the number of guys who have done that, so yes, the Bus has to be considered an all-time great. Not Barry Sanders-great, no, but Bettis is still playing, Sanders isn't. Can't ignore that fact.

[RichardSeymour]

Bettis as a HoFer basically can't be denied. He'll make it in.

But I won't be telling my children about Jerome Bettis the way I'll be telling them about Sanders, Dillon, Tomlinson, or Holmes.

[PFSIKH]

Being able to stay in the NFL as a starting RB for 12+ years is an accomplishment on its own. You can count on one hand the number of guys who have done that, so yes, the Bus has to be considered an all-time great. Not Barry Sanders-great, no, but Bettis is still playing, Sanders isn't. Can't ignore that fact.

80 - It is, but not one that should warrant being among the alltime greats. I agree with RS, Bettis has the numbers and does deserve consideration. Maybe not first year of eligibility, but a subsequent year, Yes.

Health though is such a fickle and for lack of a better word lucky aspect of the game. Ty Law breaks his foot on a freak play. VT blows his achilles. Who would have thought Terrell Davis would be out of the game? He should be challenging Emmitt. To say Bettis is a great because he was lucky to be healthy for 12+ seasons opens the greatness category to tons of players.

[RSJ]

It doesn't for RB's in my eyes. Bettis and Martin take a pounding in the regular season and are definitly slower and less dangerous come playoff time. It's not thier fault that they took 90% of the snap in the regular season giving them nothing left in the tank for the playoffs. If you look at the super bowl winning teams since the Rams they all had RB by commitee or in the Ravens case J Lewis missed much of the season. Fresh leges or a commitee approch is best when spread over the long season and playoffs.

[PFSIKH]

I hate to tell you, but Dillon had 410 carries this year.

In 2001, Antowain Smith had most of the Patriots carries.

I understand the point you are making, but the thing that judges RBs unfairly is the point brought up earlier. RBs should not be expected to have the big games during the playoffs because that is when you face the best defenses. I think the thing that hurts the Bus and Martin are they are not a homerun threat. Throw-out Dillon's game against the Colts and his numbers are close to what Curtis' were. However, in both the Superbowl and AFC Championship game, he ripped off a big run to set his team up. Granted inthe Superbowl Brady fumbled the ball on the next play, but him running through the Eagles D and carrying 3 guys to the 5 is memorable.

[StillerPaul]

Bettis as a HoFer basically can't be denied. He'll make it in.

But I won't be telling my children about Jerome Bettis the way I'll be telling them about Sanders, Dillon, Tomlinson, or Holmes.

Thats a fair statement. But this thread was not intended to be about strictly Bettis. I really like to read others' thoughts and opinions on the perceived "Big name / Big game" players. I was just using the Bus as an example.

[YJF]

Think about it. Big name players and their reputations grow if they play big in the biggest games.

Tom Brady is the best QB in football because of what he does in the big game. I can't ever put Peyton Manning ahead of him. EVER.

To me, Emmit Smith gets love because he carried his teams in the playoffs and in big games. Saw him carry his team with one arm. Can't dispute him at his peak.

I've always thought highly of Terrell Owens. After what he did in the superbowl. He's clearly the best WR as far as I am concerned. It's not even a question now in my mind. If you didn't respect Owens before. You are forced to now. Can't possibly deny him.

At some positions, You have less control over how you perform than others. You can be a great player and not have a great game. But it may not be completely your fault.

You can be a great back and have a poor game because your o-line couldn't handle the opposing teams defense or because your QB didn't play well and you faced 8 man fronts. Or because your team fell behind early and had to scrap the run game.

QB's have more control in big games. You can always judge them.

[PFSIKH]

Yes, but Bettis is a perfect example of greatness perceived or the lack there of.

He is 5th in career rushing and yet has never led the league in rushing.

He has a pedestrian total for TDs. If not for this past season he would be behind Terry Allen, Pete Johnson and Ricky Watters.

To use Bill Simmoons quote on Drew Bledsoe, Bettis is a good player, sometimes excellent but never great.

[StillerPaul]

Great post, YJF. I would also put Brady far ahead of Manning as a top notch QB. At the risk of sounding judgmental, from my point of view Donovan McNabb and Peyton Manning wouldn't even be in my top 5 list for QB's playing now just due to the fact that it looks as though they get rattled and let pressure affect their play at various times.

Once a QB loses his composure, he loses his teammates trust and faith and the team has little to no chance of winning IMO.

[YJF]

Great post, YJF. I would also put Brady far ahead of Manning as a top notch QB. At the risk of sounding judgmental, from my point of view Donovan McNabb and Peyton Manning wouldn't even be in my top 5 list for QB's playing now just due to the fact that it looks as though they get rattled and let pressure affect their play at various times.

Once a QB loses his composure, he loses his teammates trust and faith and the team has little to no chance of winning IMO.

Thanks.

Football is such a team sport that even when an individual has a great game. It's usually a product of his teammates playing great around him.

Football is not like Basketball where an individual can just take over a game by himself. It's very rare in the NFL for that to happen.

One of the best plays, I saw last season was The Pats against Seattle. The Pats are reeling. The game is slipping away from them. Hawks are on the charge with all the momentum in their favor.

Tom Brady is in the pocket, dead to rights, He's got noone open and nowhere to go. Hawks are getting the ball back. Brady eludes defenders in the pocket, scrambles and as he is falling down, He hits Bethel Johnson downfield for an unbelievable throw and catch that keeps the drive alive and leads to The Pats winning the game.

That's one of those rare occasions when an individual can really step up and shine above everybody else. But even in that moment of greatness, Brady needed help from his teammates.

[GoJETS]

It is still a team game. Good players on good teams win SB's and some bad players on good teams win SB's too. Good players can make bad teams better...

As great a Walter Payton was, he played in 1 Super Bowl. Jim Kelly played in 4 consecutive. If Steve Young didn't win that 1 SB would he not be a great QB? Do you think Dan Marino was not a good QB? Do you think Peyton Manning is not a good QB? What do you think would happen if Tom Brady played on the Colts and Peyton Manning played on the Patriots? Patriots would probably still win the SB but Manning's numbers probably wouldn't be as gaudy and Brady might have better numbers but...

Peyton Manning makes the Colts a much better team than they really are.

Neil O'Donnell made it to the Super Bowl but Peyton Manning never did.

[StillerPaul]

I remember that play. I've seen Ben do that a few times as well, that's partly why i'm so thrilled to have him at QB. I am too young to remember the Bradshaw years and the Steelers always had bad QB's IMO, so my favorite QB's as a child were Joe Montana and John Elway. I loved the way both of those guys played when the game was on the line. Especially the big games. As you know, i was born and raised a Browns hater but yet i live in Cleveland, so Elway's early years were very enjoyable for me to watch. It never mattered how much time was on the clock and it never mattered where they were on the field, ya just KNEW that Elway and Montana were gonna lead their teams to victory. I would have killed for either of those 2 as my team's QB.