F.Chowds Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 June 13th, 2011 | Author: Sam Monson Most of these articles are easy to write. We’re either telling you a guy was much better than the general perception, or much worse than the general perception, but in either case, it’s pretty obvious the guy is either under or overrated. This one isn’t so straightforward. Bart Scott seems to divide people. He’s either seen as a forceful leader and a vital part of the defense, or as an underperforming disappointment, especially given his propensity to sound-off when he likes to (Can’t Wait!). How can a player split opinions so dramatically? Surely the numbers answer things one way or the other? Well, herein lies the problem … Everybody likes to distill football down into some easy to understand statistics: yards gained, touchdowns scored, tackles made, interceptions … but it’s not always that simple. Football at its basic level is blocking and tackling, and little else, but only half of that equation comes with a ready made statistic (and even that isn’t official): tackling. There are 11 guys playing defense on any given play, and most of the time only one of them is making the tackle, but that doesn’t mean that the other ten were just riding shotgun. In fact, oftentimes players other than the tackler may have had a far bigger, more destructive impact on that play, but there’s no stat in place to track it and you may not even notice it when watching the play. You’ll see the runner cut inside, try to reverse field, and eventually get taken down, but you might not catch why he had to do that – because his lead blocker was just blown up by a defender and the entire play was dead in the water before it really got going. Bart Scott is the master of those plays. His job is often not to tackle the ball-carrier. Instead, he is to attack the lead block, blow it up, and re-route the runner so that another player can make the tackle and add a mark to the stat-sheet. There isn’t a player in the league that attacks a lead block like Bart Scott. What sets him apart, though, is that his impact isn’t limited to just fullbacks and tight ends, as Scott will punish linemen as well, a job all too many linebackers either shirk, or simply can’t do. Let’s look at an example of this from last season: Week 9 @ Detroit. 2nd and 10 in the 1st Q After taking a deep shot on 1st down that was exceptionally defended by Darrelle Revis, the Lions go back to the ground to try and make 3rd down more manageable. Bart Scott had different ideas. Detroit lines up with twin receivers right, and a tight end on the line at either side of the formation. The Jets counter this with their base D, with linebackers shifted over to create a de-facto 5-2 formation, with Bryan Thomas in a two-point stance at the end of the line. Detroit’s blocking scheme picks everybody up, and LG Rob Sims pulls right to lead the runner through the hole outside of RT. If this block is successful there is serious room to run for Jahvid Best. The linemen are blocked well, David Harris finds himself engaging the Lions’ center, Raiola, and likely only Antonio Cromartie is standing between Best and a huge gain. The block was not successful, however. Scott recognizes the hole immediately at the snap and meets the pulling guard at the line of scrimmage. He attacks his inside shoulder, stands him up, drives him backwards, and makes the tackle for no gain on the play. Scott meets a guard in the hole that had build up a head of steam and not only stood his ground, but ran through him and killed the play. Week 11 vs. Houston. 1st and 10 in the 2nd Q Houston come out in an I-Formation, twins left, strong right. The Jets counter with the same four-man line and shifted linebacker corps as in the play against Detroit. As with the play before, the run hinges on a lead-block through the hole, but this time it’s fullback Vonta Leach who meets Scott. Scott makes contact one yard deep in the backfield, stands the big fullback up, forces the runner to run right into the back of him, and then combines with Jason Taylor – disengaging from his block on the edge – to make the tackle for no gain. Again the offense had blocked this run well, opening up the right hole and picking everybody up, but Scott dominated his man to the point where the entire run was over before it went anywhere. This is vintage Bart Scott, it’s what he does best. Most linebackers will fill their assigned hole, take on a lead block, and look to shed the blocker to make the tackle as the runner comes past. Scott does it differently. He doesn’t just fill the hole and take on the blocker, he attacks the hole and looks to go through the blocker, then deal with the running back on their side of the line. But obviously not all of his plays are like this, he isn’t Superman. There are plenty of plays though where he is equally forceful against the blocker, but doesn’t have the opportunity to make the tackle and another Jet defender reaps the reward of Scott’s play. The Folly of Tackles I don’t want to get bogged down in a discussion about who is better, Bart Scott or David Harris, but it would be foolish to argue the case for either player based purely on the number of tackles each make, as their roles in the Jets’ defense are dramatically different: Harris playing the Mike, and Scott the Jack linebacker roles in the Rex Ryan defense. Harris may make more tackles than Scott does, but how many of them does he owe to the play of his teammate against lead blockers? That point needs to be made more often, regarding linebackers especially. You can’t rely on the number of tackles a guy makes to make a case for his performance, if for no other reason than tackle figures are both unofficial and chronically inaccurate. Each team has their own scorer, and they vary in accuracy, but in the time we’ve been analyzing games we’ve seen tackles attributed to guys not only nowhere near the ball-carrier, but guys not even on the field at the time! There are multiple scorers whose default position seems to be “when in doubt, credit the MLB”, or “If he’s near the pile, give him the assist”. Not only is it inherently inaccurate – being done live during the games from the stadium – but the different attitudes towards crediting tackles results in a statistic that makes it very difficult to compare players across teams. That’s why our tackle figures often vary significantly from the NFL ones you’ll see – we get to check the tackler retrospectively, watch numerous times in detail, and have a uniform policy of crediting the tackle across all teams. Making Them Count The next point about tackles is where they are made. Not all tackles are created equal, some are more equal than others (sorry). If a linebacker makes 18 tackles in a game but every one of them came after a first down by the offense because that linebacker took a mis-step, is it really a great performance? We take account of that in the advanced numbers we produce at PFF, recording defensive stops along with raw tackle figures. What constitutes a defensive stop varies by down and distance, but on 3rd and 4th down it obviously needs to be shy of the first down markers, etc. Though Scott ranks shy of Harris purely in terms of tackles, he actually makes a greater proportion of his tackles closer to the line of scrimmage, often notching a defensive stop as well as a tackle on the play. Last season, 60% of Harris’ solo tackles were defensive stops, whereas Bart Scott made 62% of his count in that regard. This might sound a fairly abstract concept, but the bottom line is the closer to the line of scrimmage tackles are being made (or even behind it ideally), the more likely the offense stalls and has to punt the ball away. Interestingly, while both of those marks were good, neither was amongst the league elite when looking at the rest of the inside linebackers (Though Scott often plays as an outside linebacker in the Jets’ hybrid scheme, he does so usually playing over the offensive guard – ie in the same spot as the inside linebackers in a regular 3-4 alignment, hence our classification). Given the similar proportion of stops both players recorded in 2010, how do we explain Scott being our top graded ILB against the run in 2010? Our 3rd rated ILB overall, he leapfrogs Patrick Willis and Lawrence Timmons to the top of the pile when looking just at performance in the run game. Scott’s grade of +27.5 is some distance clear of the next best mark, the +20.1 that Timmons scored. Harris, despite a decent season by his standards, was 24th against the run, scoring +6.8 in that regard. It’s not necessarily the reckless abandon with which Scott takes on blockers, but the fact that he is regularly taking on – and beating – blockers at or around the line of scrimmage, something many linebackers can’t do. That’s something that won’t show up in stats, even advanced ones. Disappearing in the Playoffs – Say What? One strange criticism we heard of Scott from several reputable sources was that he went AWOL in the playoffs this season, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth. The explanation for this can be found in the things we’ve just been talking about above. In the three playoff games, Scott tallied just nine tackles, but he graded +7.1 against the run and +8.2 overall for those games. So where is the positive coming from? Well, ignoring plays in coverage, Scott recorded five key plays against blockers, seven positive plays, two neutral plays and only four marginal plays (plays where the blocker marginally got the better of Scott). He had zero strongly negative plays against blockers across the three games. The point, of course, is that Scott does the work you don’t notice on the surface of games. He might not be making the tackles and showing up on the highlight reel, but that doesn’t mean he was anonymous in the game. Anyone suggesting he disappeared in the playoffs simply needs to take a closer look at what he did during those games, and ask the blockers that had to deal with him whether they felt he was a non-factor. Statistics can help make things easier to understand, and help make an argument seem more convincing, but football remains blocking and tackling, not simply tackling. Don’t ignore a linebacker of Bart Scott’s caliber just because he’s not racking up eye-popping tackle numbers, because believe us, he’s destroying blockers on a regular basis. Follow Sam on Twitter: @SamMonson … and, of course, our main Twitter feed: @ProFootballFocus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Weird, I just posted something about this in the other Bart Scott tackling thread. He does all the dirty work you dont see on the stat sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F.Chowds Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Did the same thing for Ray Ray in Baltimore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Except in a mostly 3-4, the DL guys do the job of the eating the blockers. In any football defense, what ever one player does impacts what the others can do. But this sounds and looks like an attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Scott is a solid ILB, and in may ways he is the coach on the field. But he does not make big plays.Agians the run he is very good.If that is by design, fine. But that means someone else is making those plays, and that's kind of hard to see with 3 DL guys who don't get to the passer in this framework. Someone has to get to the QB on passing downs, and the Jets didn't so it anywhere near enough. You would expect Jason Taylor or the OLBs to get there,a nd they didn't very often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Except in a mostly 3-4, the DL guys do the job of the eating the blockers. In any football defense, what ever one player does impacts what the others can do. But this sounds and looks like an attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Scott is a solid ILB, and in may ways he is the coach on the field. But he does not make big plays.Agians the run he is very good.If that is by design, fine. But that means someone else is making those plays, and that's kind of hard to see with 3 DL guys who don't get to the passer in this framework. Someone has to get to the QB on passing downs, and the Jets didn't so it anywhere near enough. You would expect Jason Taylor or the OLBs to get there,a nd they didn't very often. Disagree. He's constantly taking on blockers whether its guards or FBs. He does the dirty work so Harris can roam free. And he still put up almost identical numbers which is impressive. And its not like we have a DL that commands double teams. And I disagree with your point about getting to the QB. The Jets were 8th in the league in sacks and that was a whole 8 sacks less than the league leading Steelers. He's definitely the Qb of the D and he's good in coverage too. His work vs. the Patriots in the playoffs was outstanding covering the underneath stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Bart Scott is the ******* man. End thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Q: Are you paying Bart Scott $8+ mil to "take on blockers"? Bart's a very good player, but Bart makes too much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Except in a mostly 3-4, the DL guys do the job of the eating the blockers. In any football defense, what ever one player does impacts what the others can do. But this sounds and looks like an attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Scott is a solid ILB, and in may ways he is the coach on the field. But he does not make big plays.Agians the run he is very good.If that is by design, fine. But that means someone else is making those plays, and that's kind of hard to see with 3 DL guys who don't get to the passer in this framework. Someone has to get to the QB on passing downs, and the Jets didn't so it anywhere near enough. You would expect Jason Taylor or the OLBs to get there,a nd they didn't very often. How does the OLBs inability to get to the QB equate an article about Bart Scott's run D with putting lipstick on a pig? Bart Scott is an excellent ILB against the run. The Jets have an excellent D, a beastly D against the run. There is no reason to denigrate the Jets defense. None. They are not great at rushing the passer. If they were they would be an all-time great defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Q: Are you paying Bart Scott $8+ mil to "take on blockers"? Bart's a very good player, but Bart makes too much money. Only if you are a fantasy geek who has no clue what he's talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Only if you are a fantasy geek who has no clue what he's talking about. I hope Aten comes in here and decides it's time to wear your face for a mask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 How does the OLBs inability to get to the QB equate an article about Bart Scott's run D with putting lipstick on a pig? Bart Scott is an excellent ILB against the run. The Jets have an excellent D, a beastly D against the run. There is no reason to denigrate the Jets defense. None. They are not great at rushing the passer. If they were they would be an all-time great defense. I like Bart. And I'll grant you he plays the run very well, and there aren't many ILBs who get sacks or would even be expected to do so. But if the idea is for him to take on blockers so speedy OLBs and DEs can get to the QB on passing downs, I'm not seeing it. Further, seems as if every TE you never heard of has a career day vs. the Jets.That's either safeties or LBs covering those underneath crossing routes. And to reiterate Tom's point, in a hard cap sport, his production no matter how you measure it does not justify his salary. And recall we had a 10-0 lead at half in one AFC title game and couldn't hold on, and allowed Pitt to go up big at half in this year's game. This is a lot like the Curtis Martin threads; he is a very good player, but telling us he's a superstar when in big games he's erratic at best doesn't help your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I like Bart. And I'll grant you he plays the run very well, and there aren't many ILBs who get sacks or would even be expected to do so. But if the idea is for him to take on blockers so speedy OLBs and DEs can get to the QB on passing downs, I'm not seeing it. Further, seems as if every TE you never heard of has a career day vs. the Jets.That's either safeties or LBs covering those underneath crossing routes. And to reiterate Tom's point, in a hard cap sport, his production no matter how you measure it does not justify his salary. And recall we had a 10-0 lead at half in one AFC title game and couldn't hold on, and allowed Pitt to go up big at half in this year's game. This is a lot like the Curtis Martin threads; he is a very good player, but telling us he's a superstar when in big games he's erratic at best doesn't help your argument. It's not his job and nobody said it is. He does not take on blockers to let OLBs get to the QB. He blows up the FB C or G so that the running play can't go to the gap the offense wants. That's what the article said. The article never mentioned passing downs except to say that Scott is by far the best against the run, but drops to 3rd overall. That would seem to indicate that he is not stellar against the pass. You can complain about his pay. This article and the geek stats it promotes seem to indicate he might not be overpaid, but that's an understandable point. I don't accept whining about the AFC title games though. Did the Jets score in the 2nd half against the Colts? They aren't perfect and lost to two excellent teams. I don't see the shame in that. They beat some excellent teams as well, including two incredible offenses on the road in the playoffs last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 It's not his job and nobody said it is. He does not take on blockers to let OLBs get to the QB. He blows up the FB C or G so that the running play can't go to the gap the offense wants. That's what the article said. The article never mentioned passing downs except to say that Scott is by far the best against the run, but drops to 3rd overall. That would seem to indicate that he is not stellar against the pass. You can complain about his pay. This article and the geek stats it promotes seem to indicate he might not be overpaid, but that's an understandable point. I don't accept whining about the AFC title games though. Did the Jets score in the 2nd half against the Colts? They aren't perfect and lost to two excellent teams. I don't see the shame in that. They beat some excellent teams as well, including two incredible offenses on the road in the playoffs last season. Can you put a value on leadership, work ethic and having a coach on the field? How much has Bart Scott contributed to this team grasping a complicated defense and buying in overall to what Rex is preaching? If Rex thinks he's worth it, than I'll take his opinion over anyone we debate with on the interwebz. There's a reason his first order of business as a HC was to go to Bart Scott's house and convince him to come to NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Can you put a value on leadership, work ethic and having a coach on the field? $64 million? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damaged89 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 $64 million? I lol'd. fwiw, I remember when you went to the 09 training camp you posted something to the effect of "this is already Bart's team". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Q: Are you paying Bart Scott $8+ mil to "take on blockers"? Bart's a very good player, but Bart makes too much money. Sigh...just when I'd thought you'd seen the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 $64 million? Tom's in full contrarian dickhead mode - must be getting close to training camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 You can complain about his pay. No, you really can't. We play a 3-4 and he's the best ILB in the league against the run. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I lol'd. fwiw, I remember when you went to the 09 training camp you posted something to the effect of "this is already Bart's team". I did say that. Him, Jenkins and Revis were far and away the best players on the field. I just can't resist using a Pennington's intangibles joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 $64 million? You are losing it T0m. Think you were performing better when you were my #2 LFP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Sigh...just when I'd thought you'd seen the light. I love me some Bart Scott. I was picking at the article, which seems to point at "taking on blockers" as his main strength. Better stat would be that Scott has never played on a defense that finished out of the top 5. Whatever he does, he does it well. $8 mil per well? Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Tom's in full contrarian dickhead mode - must be getting close to training camp. Like birds flying south, homey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 You are losing it T0m. Think you were performing better when you were my #2 LFP. There are no bad Chad Pennington jokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 There are no bad Chad Pennington jokes. Nope, just bad Chad Pennington plays. Which is all of them. In case that wasn't clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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