the GM shouldn't undercut the HC on QB

[CTM]

In the last 40 years, how many times have the Jets been to the AFC Championship game? How many have Idzik's teams been to? Its not like they backed into the game either. They f'n beat Manning and Brady in back to back weeks.

 

No, they only backed into the playoffs....

[RSJ]

No, they only backed into the playoffs....

 

No one cares once you beat two legit teams to get to the AFC Championship game.

[JoeKlecko]

as Jets fans, we are too close to this mess to see the forest for the trees. Bottom line If another team's GM was "collaborating" with the team's HC for lineup decisions, we'd laugh our asses off. a functional franchise doesn't run this way (and in the end, the fault of that is neither Idzik's nor Rex's but Woody's). 

 

as for the FA, that story is writing itself. I especially can't wait to see how the Kellen Winslow JR signing ends up. 

 

Bull spit.  That's your projection and assumption.  You have absolutely zero proof that "normal" teams don't function that way.  The only thing we're laughing our asses off is at your continued ranting on this.  You're really being ridiculous.

[JoeKlecko]

Some of you need to step back and look at this new GM objectively. Besides the fact that he doesn't exactly come from a dynasty, he has botched a lot of moves this offseason. I'm trying to stay positive, but to a casual observer Geno should have never even started the third game of the pre season. He was nowhere close to ready. It makes you wonder if Geno would have stepped on the field at all if this was only Rex's decision. So if Rex doesn't know sh*t about QB's, how much does our GM (with no player personnel experience and is clearly insisting on this competition continuing) know? You have to wonder since it was him who kept Geno even in the competition and has say on who starts.

 

And just how did you arrive at this as a "casual observer?"  From a handful of snaps in the first preseason game?  ROFLMAO  That's ridiculous!!!  I suppose you think you know more than Lee and Mornhinweg.  They made no such comments, and in fact, made numerous comments to the contrary. Like Bit, you're making yourself look worse and worse.

[RSJ]

And just how did you arrive at this as a "casual observer?"  From a handful of snaps in the first preseason game?  ROFLMAO  That's ridiculous!!!  I suppose you think you know more than Lee and Mornhinweg.  They made no such comments, and in fact, made numerous comments to the contrary. Like Bit, you're making yourself look worse and worse.

 

Thanks, all you needed to add was that I shouldnt be a Jets fan anymore and this would be just like the other 1200 post you put on here.

 

But yeah, I did see that from two games. The kid has the second lowest QB rating of any QB in the NFL preseason and has yet to hit any pass that isn't a shallow or a checkdown, soooooo I'm gonna go with my instincts on this one and say he isn't ready yet.

[JoeKlecko]

Thanks, all you needed to add was that I shouldnt be a Jets fan anymore and this would be just like the other 1200 post you put on here.

 

But yeah, I did see that from two games. The kid has the second lowest QB rating of any QB in the NFL preseason and has yet to hit any pass that isn't a shallow or a checkdown, soooooo I'm gonna go with my instincts on this one and say he isn't ready yet.

 

You're the only poster on here that I've said anything like that to.  I normally don't make it to anyone at all, but your earlier posts struck me that way.  For what it's worth, I apologize or having said that.

 

Seeing it in two games is not what you said before.  You said you saw it before the Giants game and that he shouldn't have started that game because he wasn't ready, and there's no way you could have seen that yet unless you were at every practice at TC.  We're actually in agreement that he's not ready.  I've said all along that he'd probably need to sit for a while and learn and shouldn't be starting the season.  Still, it wasn't apparent after a few snaps in the first preseason game that that would definitely be the case.

[RSJ]

You're the only poster on here that I've said anything like that to.  I normally don't make it to anyone at all, but your earlier posts struck me that way.  For what it's worth, I apologize or having said that.

 

Seeing it in two games is not what you said before.  You said you saw it before the Giants game and that he shouldn't have started that game because he wasn't ready, and there's no way you could have seen that yet unless you were at every practice at TC.  We're actually in agreement that he's not ready.  I've said all along that he'd probably need to sit for a while and learn and shouldn't be starting the season.  Still, it wasn't apparent after a few snaps in the first preseason game that that would definitely be the case.

 

Cool, thanks. We are both fans bro - just different opinions.

 

All I'm saying is that I'm not sure Geno would have started that game if it wasn't for the GM's interference. If it was the coaches, then shame on them for starting him when he was that far off from being ready - but the thing is, when the GM is quoted as saying he has a say in the decision of who will start at QB for the team, and we all know Rex likes Sanchez,then we would have to assume that it was the GM and offensive coaches that were keeping this competition going when it should have been over already based on practices. No way can a coach start a guy that is that far from being ready, then again maybe it was the GM? This is what is wrong with a GM having ANY say in ANY QB competition.

[Integrity28]

You two should make out, seriously.

[RSJ]

You two should make out, seriously.

 

You wish.

[Integrity28]

You wish.

 

If it was a wish, I wouldn't have said it out loud... everyone knows it wouldn't come true that way. 

[JoeKlecko]

Cool, thanks. We are both fans bro - just different opinions.

 

All I'm saying is that I'm not sure Geno would have started that game if it wasn't for the GM's interference. If it was the coaches, then shame on them for starting him when he was that far off from being ready - but the thing is, when the GM is quoted as saying he has a say in the decision of who will start at QB for the team, and we all know Rex likes Sanchez,then we would have to assume that it was the GM and offensive coaches that were keeping this competition going when it should have been over already based on practices. No way can a coach start a guy that is that far from being ready, then again maybe it was the GM? This is what is wrong with a GM having ANY say in ANY QB competition.

 

You're welcome.

 

Ok, your bolded comment is something different entirely, and I can understand and agree with that.

 

Wait...you said GM "and offensive coaches".  What's wrong with that?  As you said we all know that Rex is loyal to certain players to a fault and doesn't hold them accountable.  If Idzik thinks it's in the best interest of the team to have competition at all positions on the team rather than just handing players jobs (and I think most Jets fans would agree with that approach), what's wrong with him insuring that it is a real competition, especially if the offensive coaches agree with him?  Also, how can you have competition for every other spot on the team, yet not have it for the most important position on the team?  That would make the competition approach a sham.  

 

Why should the competition have been over if the offensive coaches didn't think it should have been, because Rex said so?  If that's what you're saying then we'll have to agree to disagree.  We all know that Rex is clueless when it comes to offense.  Heck he even admitted in the scrimmage (or was it the first preseason game) that he didn't even watch the QBs.  That's an asinine comment for a HC to make.  We know how much he loves Sanchez.  If Geno had been ready to start, why should Sanchez have been allowed to start instead just because Rex said so, when the offensive coaches and Idzik thought differently?

 

Now if Idzik just wants to start Geno because he despises Sanchez and he doesn't really know if Geno is ready or not, and doesn't care, then I'll agree with you that his actions are wrong, but if his intent was to only urge that Geno have a chance to compete, and start if he was ready and better than Sanchez, but if not allow Sanchez to start, I see nothing wrong with that as it would be in the best interests of the team.

 

I think it's pretty certain that Rex was forced upon Idzik by Woody.  Their personalities and approaches are just too different.  I think if Idzik had been given free reign with the team, we'd have a different HC right now.  With that being the case, and with Rex track record of ineptitude with the offense, love for Sanchez, and blind loyalty to players whose play didn't deserve that loyalty, I don't blame Idzik one bit.  He's trying to change the culture and build a winner here.

[JoeKlecko]

If it was a wish, I wouldn't have said it out loud... everyone knows it wouldn't come true that way. 

 

As they say in NYC, "fuhgeddaboutit!"  I'm saving myself for you! LOL

[KSJets]

In the last 40 years, how many times have the Jets been to the AFC Championship game? How many have Idzik's teams been to? Its not like they backed into the game either. They f'n beat Manning and Brady in back to back weeks.

 

Considering Idzik has been a part of NFC teams, that would be really impressive if they got to the AFC Championship game.

[kelticwizard]

Oh good Lord.

 

The Giants never said that.  If you're going to bring that in, then bring it with a quote from the team. It should be damn easy to find several if, as you say, they made this announcement over and over prior to the start of the season.  Keep in mind they signed Warner to a 2-year deal, not a 1-year deal.  So go find those quotes for me. 

 

Okay, the Giants did not say over and over that Kurt Warner would be a Giant for only a year.  However, the following article makes clear that even Warner's agent acknowledges that he's only there to prep Eli Manning for the job, and it also says that the Giants made clear that was Warner's role as well.  They acknowledged that Warner would be allowed to compete for the starting job-not exactly the way anyone would phrase it if they expected the QB to be their solution for any real length of time.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/12/sports/football-giants-check-out-warner-warner-checks-out-giants.html

FOOTBALL; Giants Check Out Warner. Warner Checks Out Giants.

By LYNN ZINSER

Published: May 12, 2004

The Giants' quarterback story included Kurt Warner, or at least the possibility of Kurt Warner, in its cast of characters when he was in East Rutherford, N.J., for dinner and a physical in the latest and most unusual twist in a drama that shows no signs of ending.

The Giants sized up Warner, a former N.F.L. most valuable player, for the role of veteran helpmate and/or potential interim starter at a dinner Monday night and more meetings and a physical yesterday with both sides knowing that Warner believes he is a long-term starter and that the Giants have all but handed the keys to the franchise to the rookie Eli Manning. The unusual part is that Warner is even interested in such a role and that St. Louis allowed him to go on this shopping trip for a new team while still under contract.

''The Rams gave us a chance to do this and we took advantage of it,'' Giants General Manager Ernie Accorsi said. ''I would characterize it as an exploratory meeting and nothing else.''

Warner's agent, Mark Bartelstein, said that Warner enjoyed the meeting but that he was weighing interest from several teams and that he knew finding a starting job was not going to be easy.

''The perfect situation would be to find a place he would start for the next six years, but when you're a free agent in May instead of in March, it's not a perfect situation,'' Bartelstein said. ''We have to weigh the short term and the long term, the franchise, the city, the chance to win a championship.''

Warner's situation changed when St. Louis offered a contract extension to Marc Bulger, the player who displaced him as the Rams' starter. And the Giants have put themselves through a similar quarterback trauma with their draft-day trade for Manning. In less than a month, the Giants have gone from a team with a happy veteran in Kerry Collins to the leading player in the N.F.L.'s game of musical quarterbacks.

After unsuccessfully trying to talk Collins into restructuring his contract and failing to lure Neil O'Donnell out of retirement, the Giants have talked to Damon Huard and now Warner, although Warner will not be cut by the Rams until after June 1 to lessen the impact on the team's salary cap.

The way it appears, no answers will come until after June 1. If the Giants liked Huard, they would have signed him before their first minicamp last week. Instead, they went through those practices under the guise of having last season's backup, Jesse Palmer, as the starter. Manning and the undrafted free agent Jared Lorenzen played the wide-eyed rookies getting their first glimpses of life in the N.F.L.

The workouts were not particularly pretty, but it is not quite fair to say that the Giants turned to Warner after watching those practices. They have made no secret of wanting a veteran to ease Manning's transition from college, and the little-used Palmer has barely made the transition himself.

The Rams loosened their leash on Warner because they have no intention of keeping two high-priced quarterbacks, the consideration that sent Collins packing from the Giants.

When the next round of cuts come on June 1, quarterbacks like Vinny Testaverde and Rich Gannon might be available. Until then, the only high- or midlevel quarterback available for the immediate taking is Collins.

Testaverde's agent, Michael Azzarelli, said the Jets had not granted permission for Testaverde to talk to any teams, as the Rams did with Warner. Gannon participated in the Raiders' minicamp last week, proclaiming himself ready to start again after a torn labrum injury cost him much of last season, but the Raiders' situation is anything but predictable.

The other teams looking for a quarterback are sitting tight, for now. Chicago is not quite sold on Rex Grossman as the starter for next season. San Francisco finds itself in dire straits with Tim Rattay's severe groin injury threatening his season and the unproved Ken Dorsey as his backup. And the Cowboys have a certain amount of trepidation about sticking with Quincy Carter while they wait for the rookie Drew Henson to develop after a three-year baseball-induced layoff.

Warner is a prime candidate in each place, but he would command a fairly high salary, although nowhere near the $5.3 million he made last season, and he has struggled with injuries. He has not started a game since last season's opener against the Giants, a strange combination of 342 passing yards, 5 fumbles and a concussion that prompted the Rams to hand Bulger the job.

Bartelstein said the physicals should show that Warner's injuries healed long ago.

''He's fine and he's been fine,'' Bartelstein said. ''There are no issues with his health at all.''

 

[kelticwizard]

..Next, a few nice seasons? Nice seasons? He was the most dominant passer in the most dominant passing attack on planet earth.  A few nice seasons, lol.

 

He had started a grand total of 7 games in his last two years with St. Louis combined.  His passer rating for those two years was 67 and 73.  The last game he played for St. Louis he had 6 fumbles-in one game!

 

A few nice seasons.  He was far removed from his glory days and he was on the scrap heap.

 

The fact that the Giants were looking at folks like Damon Huard along with Warner speaks volumes.

[kelticwizard]

...Next, not only were the Giants 5-3 at the halfway mark, but they were 2-1 against teams that would finish with 10+ wins.  Plus even though Warner certainly wasn't as good as he used to be, Coughlin's QB was a superbowl champ, a superbowl MVP, and took his team to the SB twice in recent years.  

 

Given all that, there is no way, in heaven or hell, that a coach like Coughlin would fall on his sword, and make 50+ other guys waste all their hard work and also fall on their swords and risk serious injury and harm, just so rookie Eli could get some practice reps in against live action.  

 

You are smoking some serious dope if you believe that was Coughlin's - and only Coughlin's - call (since that is the thread's premise).

 

Offense was going in the tank.

 

Warner's Mistakes Costly for Giants

By JUDY BATTISTA

Published: November 8, 2004

    

    EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J., Nov. 7 - Giants quarterback Kurt Warner walked off the field looking a bit like a chastened child, eyes cast down, licking his lips. He did not yet know that Coach Tom Coughlin had considered, then rejected, the idea of benching him during the game and inserting the rookie Eli Manning. But what he knew of his performance was enough to make him miserable anyway.

Warner fumbled twice and threw two interceptions in the Giants' 28-21 loss to the Bears on Sunday.

His performance was so shaky - even accounting for the near-constant blitz by the Bears - that for the first time this season, serious questions were raised about just how much longer Warner should remain the starter.

Warner acknowledged the impact of his turnovers.

"It's hard to let it go," he said. "My mistakes cost us the football game. I'm going to think about it a lot."

His errors were at the center of the Giants' six-minute meltdown at the end of the second quarter. The Giants had a chance to take a 21-0 lead late in the first quarter, but wound up trailing, 20-14, at halftime.

Warner threw interceptions on consecutive plays for the Giants in the final two and a half minutes of the half. On the first, with the score tied at 14-14, a pass intended for Amani Toomer landed in the hands of Bears cornerback Nathan Vasher. He returned it 41 yards, to the Giants' 4-yard line. The Bears settled for a 22-yard field goal.

When Warner touched the ball next, he threw a pass over the middle that was so far behind tight end Jeremy Shockey that he appeared to have no idea he was the intended receiver. Jerry Azumah intercepted, and the Bears added a 21-yard field goal with four seconds left in the half.

The Giants went three downs and out on their first drive of the third quarter. On their next drive, Warner fumbled as he scrambled away from pressure, a recurring problem this season. He has fumbled 12 times, losing 4 of them.

"I was just trying to get out of there," Warner said. "Obviously, it was a big turning point in the game. I have to continue to work on not letting that happen."

In the locker room, support for Warner was universal, with players saying he still gives them the best chance to win. Coughlin defended Warner, too, putting much of the blame on the Giants' inability to handle the Bears' rush.

"It's difficult to say one thing about the quarterback when you've got to look at the whole situation," Coughlin said. "At times they had a four-man rush and the guy didn't have time to set up. We did not react well offensively once the blitz started coming. If we have to, we'll run the ball and that's it."

At other times, Warner showed another weakness, holding the ball too long, as if reluctant to throw it away. That contributed to seven sacks, including two on the Giants' final drive, when with less than two minutes remaining, the Giants trailed by a touchdown and had recovered an onside kick. But two consecutive sacks put them into a fourth-and-20, and Warner's final pass of the game - like so many others - fell incomplete.

He wound up completing 18 of 36 passes for 195 yards and a touchdown, with a quarterback rating of 52.4.

"Nobody is ever responsible for my mistakes except me," Warner said of Chicago's relentless pressure. "This is just stuff you have to deal with. That's no excuse for us not being able to handle it. If they're going to blitz, we have to burn them."

Still, Warner seemed surprised when he was told that Coughlin had considered using Manning.

Warner's popularity seems to be as inconsistent as his play right now. The Giants are 5-3 and Warner has completed 62.6 percent of his passes, but he could not miss hearing the boos as he headed into the tunnel Sunday night. And he will probably not be able to miss hearing the whispers about his future, too.

"He's the head coach and he'll make those decisions," Warner said of Coughlin. "When I'm on the field, I'll give it everything I've got."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/08/sports/football/08blue.html

[kelticwizard]

Tanking leads to Eli getting the job.

 

Giants Say It Is Time to Start Manning
By DAVE CALDWELL

Published: November 16, 2004
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J., Nov. 15 - Kurt Warner, sacked 24 times in the past four Sundays, never sensed his demotion coming, either.

Giants Coach Tom Coughlin called Warner into his office shortly after noon Monday and told him that the rookie Eli Manning would replace him immediately at quarterback. Coughlin sent Warner away, summoned Manning and told him he would start Sunday against Atlanta.

So began a bold new era, although without much pomp.

"He is the future of the New York Giants," Coughlin said at a news conference. "It just starts now."

Manning, the first pick in the draft this year, has a six-year, $54.6 million contract, so that future would have begun eventually. But after the Giants traded for Manning on draft day, they sought a veteran starter to tutor him through his first season. The Giants did not like the inference that Manning's arrival meant they were rebuilding and content not to win this season.

"We still have high expectations for this season," Manning said. "I don't think this, in any way, says we're giving up."

The Giants (5-4) started the season 4-1 behind a rejuvenated Warner, but three losses in the next four games - including at home to the Lions and to the Bears and Sunday's 17-14 defeat at Arizona - prompted Coughlin's move. Warner was 168 of 268 for 1,927 yards in his nine starts, with six touchdown passes and four interceptions.

Manning's promotion was still a surprise. Coughlin said after Sunday's game that he expected Warner would remain the starter. When asked exactly when he decided to make a change, Coughlin was vague and testy.

"Maybe it was on the couch at 3 o'clock this morning," Coughlin said. "Maybe that was it."

Manning was asked if he was eager to prove that he was better than Pittsburgh's rookie quarterback, Ben Roethlisberger. In a low, soft drawl, Manning said no.

"None of that matters," he said. "You go out and play the game."

He seemed to understand why he was promoted when he was. The Giants needed a change, he said. The Giants need to get something started.

"I don't know what I can add," he said. "When you get sacked six times and you're making mistakes, it's hard to be successful."

With games against the Falcons (7-2) and the Eagles (8-1) looming, the Giants know they are in a critical point in the season, one that will decide whether they contend for a playoff berth.

"I think I'm prepared," Manning said. "I know the offense. I know what we're doing."

Tiki Barber labeled the change in quarterbacks as a potential spark, but no one was willing to say exactly how Manning would succeed in areas that Warner failed. Manning, who is slightly more mobile than Warner, has played in only two games, well after both had been decided, and did not throw a pass when he replaced Warner in a 34-13 victory over Minnesota on Oct. 31. He was 3 for 9 for 66 yards in mop-up duty at the end of the season-opening loss to Philadelphia.

Coughlin said he believed that Manning had learned a lot in his nine-game apprenticeship, and that Manning had made an impression on his teammates.

"He's not an ordinary rookie," wide receiver Amani Toomer said. "We've got to find a way to win some games. We don't want to end up at .500."

Warner reported to Giants Stadium on Monday thinking he would begin preparing for the Atlanta game.

"I have a pretty good idea of why this all happened," Warner said. "I think this goes way beyond yesterday's game. There's a bigger picture here, and there are more things that need to be accomplished here."

Warner did not elaborate, but he has in the past acknowledged that Manning's eventual ascendance was inevitable. Teams do not pay $20 million signing bonuses to players with the intent of keeping them on the bench.

The Giants, though, were adamant that management had no role in Manning's promotion.

"I don't think Tom Coughlin would work for an organization that made player decisions for him," said Wellington Mara, the Giants co-owner.

 After a 26-10 victory over the Cowboys on Oct. 10, the Giants were 4-1 and the surprise of the N.F.L., and Warner was seen as one major reason. Since then, the Giants have lost three of their last four games, including consecutive losses to teams they were favored to beat, and Warner was also seen as a reason.

Coughlin could not ditch the other players on offense who were so inept at protecting Warner, so he decided that Manning might boost this sagging team. Warner has been sacked a league-high 39 times.

When Barber was asked Monday if Warner had been made a scapegoat, Barber replied: "I think it is, a little bit. But this isn't about Kurt."

Center Shaun O'Hara said of Warner: "He's never blamed anybody. Your heart goes out to him that he's not going to be the starting quarterback."

Coughlin said several times during the news conference that Warner, who has thrown only one touchdown pass to a wide receiver, was not solely responsible.

"Kurt Warner did not lose the football game yesterday," Coughlin said.

But he did not win it, either. The Giants amassed two 80-yard scoring drives to take a 14-3 lead less than 17 minutes into the game. Then they seemed to hit a wall.

Barber said the Cardinals loaded the line of scrimmage with defenders and began to blitz the Giants, all but daring the Giants to throw the ball over them.

Warner, who completed 6 of 8 passes for 69 yards on the first two drives, was sacked six times on the last nine possessions, and the Giants did not score.

Warner, who fumbled twice and threw two interceptions in a 28-21 loss to Chicago on Nov. 7, did not turn the ball over Sunday. He has a penchant for hanging on to the ball under pressure, but Coughlin said that came into play on only one of the six sacks Sunday.

"The inability to deliver a knockout punch versus the pressure is one of the problems," Coughlin said, without mentioning Warner by name.

Three of the last nine drives included penalties on the Giants. A holding penalty on O'Hara wiped out a 12-yard gain by Ron Dayne in the third quarter.

"We've been our own worst enemies the last three losses," O'Hara said. "Until we fix that, we're not going to see a victory for a while."

Coughlin is following his gut on this one. He said Monday, "After all, it does end up being an instinctive decision."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/sports/football/16giants.html?pagewanted=1

 

 

Giants started strong but lost 3 out 4, Warner was playing like hell and turning the ball over when he's not getting sacked.  It is impossible for anyone to say with credibility that Eli's elevation to the starting role was not purely the coach's decision.  And the front office went out of their way to squelch any speculation that it was not the then-embattled Coughlin's decision.

 

[kelticwizard]

...Plus there has been no evidence whatsoever that the coach is being denied the opportunity to play every single player he wants to or that he would get overruled by Idzik.

 

All Idzik said, as I remember it, is that he was going to be part of the process.  He'll be in the room, so to speak.  Well so will Lee an Mornhinwig and maybe even some other people.  

When the GM drafts a QB, because the prior one was horribleterrible, you think there's a GM in the league that will say to his coach, "Hey I'm just going to chill in my office.  Tell me when the season's over so I can start the contract and draft evaluation process."  Baloney.  He's going to be ok with it if Rex benches his draft pick.  He just wants to be in the room when Rex (or whoever it is) tells the reason why Geno has no place starting over sh*tty Sanchez right now. 

 

It's a group discussion in that everyone has input.  But the final decision is Rex's.  Idzik has never stated or hinted otherwise.  If it was otherwise, Idzik would have said, "Rex will make his case, but ultimately I have to ok it for him to go with the guy he picks because everyone in the room gets a vote and I, the GM, am the deciding vote." Nothing remotely close to that was said by anyone except those trying to incite the fan base for their own reasons.

 

The coach has to exude authority in order to get players wanting to play hard for him.  Demoting him from the leader of the team who decides who plays and who sits down to someone who just has important input as to who plays and who sits cuts him down a huge notch.  That's why the Giants went out of their way to tell people that benching Kurt Warner was solely the new coach Tom Coughlin's decision.

 

Idzik never said that the final decisioin is Rex's, at least not in the first statement.  I don't know if he said anything at a later date, and it hardly matters-it was a supremely arrogant thing to say, whether he backs off later or not.

 

Here's the original report.

 

GM: 'Collective' call on Jets QB

Updated: July 27, 2013, 7:27 PM ET

By Rich Cimini | ESPNNewYork.com

CORTLAND, N.Y. -- Over the next few weeks, New York Jets coach Rex Ryan will make one of the biggest decisions of his career: Mark Sanchez or Geno Smith?

Except it won't be entirely his call, according to general manager John Idzik, who said Ryan will have plenty of help when choosing a starting quarterback.

Idzik, speaking to reporters Saturday for the first time in his inaugural training camp, said he will have "a pretty big role" in the decision-making process. Idzik said it will be based on a "collective opinion," with input from assistant coaches and scouts.

    "When you look at who's going to play, Rex and I will talk about that freely. When you put in the time and effort, and when you make that decision, you feel like it's a 'we' decision, not an individual decision. It's not like someone will drop the gavel and do something counter to what the Jets want to do.” -- Jets GM John Idzik

It's only natural that a GM would have a voice, but Idzik refused to acknowledge that Ryan has the final say. Head coaches almost always have the power to decide who plays and who sits.

"When you look at who's going to play, Rex and I will talk about that freely," Idzik said. "When you put in the time and effort, and when you make that decision, you feel like it's a 'we' decision, not an individual decision. It's not like someone will drop the gavel and do something counter to what the Jets want to do."

Ordinarily, this wouldn't be a big deal, except it's magnified because Ryan is coaching for his job in 2013. He was hired by former GM Mike Tannenbaum, who was fired after the season. Ryan had no previous relationship with Idzik, casting doubt on his future.

Ryan joked about it Saturday, saying, "It's safe to say I won't be here if we draft [Jadeveon] Clowney" -- the presumed No. 1 overall pick in 2014.

Clearly, Ryan is in a win-now mode, which might lead him to prefer the experienced Sanchez over the rookie from West Virginia. Ryan and Sanchez arrived together in 2009 and shared two playoff appearances before hard times hit in 2011.

Smith is perceived as an Idzik guy. After all, Idzik drafted Smith in the second round.

Idzik downplayed the possibility of conflicting agendas.

"It's a collaborative effort, guys," he said. "It's not how it seems. It's not like you wake up one morning and everyone is waiting with bated breath on someone with a scroll and he says, 'Here it is.'

"That's not it, especially with this decision because there's so much that goes into it. It's not going to be a surprise to anybody in the room."

Ryan wasn't available to comment because his media availability occurred before Idzik spoke to reporters. But on Thursday, Ryan suggested he'd make the call with input from others: "When I make that decision, clearly I'll feel great about it -- and not just me, but I'll lean on several other people."

This could be a difficult season for Ryan, who has only two years remaining on his contract. It's a rebuilding year, as the Jets may have 11 new starters. Nevertheless, he will be evaluated after the season. It would be hard to land a contract extension if he misses the playoffs for a third straight year.

Idzik said no one is on the hot seat.

"Pressure is perceived," he said. "Our guys don't feel pressure. Rex doesn't feel pressure. I don't feel pressure. Our players, hopefully they don't feel pressure so they can perform."

Asked about Ryan's Clowney quip, Idzik smiled.

"That's pretty funny," he said.

[CTM]

No one cares once you beat two legit teams to get to the AFC Championship game.

 

well, they should. I do. What happens over the course of 16 games is much more telling then what happens over 2. For instance, Sanchez was bad over the course of 16 games as a rookie, and adequate over those 2 playoff games. HIs career trajectory has followed what the 16 games projected, rather then the 2 playoff games.

[RSJ]

well, they should. I do. What happens over the course of 16 games is much more telling then what happens over 2. For instance, Sanchez was bad over the course of 16 games as a rookie, and adequate over those 2 playoff games. HIs career trajectory has followed what the 16 games projected, rather then the 2 playoff games.

 

So its easy to get to the conference championship game? How many teams do it each year? How many times has Idzik been there the last 6 years with the Seahawks?

[Scott Dierking]

Simple question, after Rex is gone, what kind of coach is gonna want to work for a GM who publicly undercuts his ability to pick a quarterback?

 

Every team in the league picks their QB before preseason week 3. WE as Jets fans just saw what happens when you don't. This competition has been a farce. Geno lost it and they gave him a super special extra chance to win it, and he choked. How does this look to anyone who would want to take this job.  

 

note this thread isn't about Idzik's absolutely garbage free agent signings (too many to list), or how he traded the team's best player (understandable but still troublesome to a new head coach). 

 

The hopeful answer is that the next head coach will be Bill Walsh part II and Idzik won't have to interfere cause he will trust him more than Rex. 

 

BUt seriously, what kind of precedent is this? That the GM says to the media, I'm gonna pick the QB, not the HC. and then he cocks it up this bad?  Who would want this job? 

 

all of this mess could have been avoided if the football coaches were allowed to make football decisions on a normal time line. there's a reason why everyone does it a certain way. And the reason is that if the rookie didn't win it by game three, he's not ready to win it.  there's also a reason why GM and HC are different full time positions. 

Did you ever stop and think that Idzik would only take this approach with Ryan? That he considers having Ryan as his coach, is like giving your 16 year old the car for the first time? You make sure you give explicit instructions, and you hawk over him so he doesn't ruin anything.

 

I would imagine that Idziks relationship with his next coach will have different rules.

[Sperm Edwards]

The coach has to exude authority in order to get players wanting to play hard for him.  Demoting him from the leader of the team who decides who plays and who sits down to someone who just has important input as to who plays and who sits cuts him down a huge notch.  That's why the Giants went out of their way to tell people that benching Kurt Warner was solely the new coach Tom Coughlin's decision.

 

Idzik never said that the final decisioin is Rex's, at least not in the first statement.  I don't know if he said anything at a later date, and it hardly matters-it was a supremely arrogant thing to say, whether he backs off later or not.

 

Here's the original report.

 

GM: 'Collective' call on Jets QB

Updated: July 27, 2013, 7:27 PM ET

By Rich Cimini | ESPNNewYork.com

CORTLAND, N.Y. -- Over the next few weeks, New York Jets coach Rex Ryan will make one of the biggest decisions of his career: Mark Sanchez or Geno Smith?

Except it won't be entirely his call, according to general manager John Idzik, who said Ryan will have plenty of help when choosing a starting quarterback.

Idzik, speaking to reporters Saturday for the first time in his inaugural training camp, said he will have "a pretty big role" in the decision-making process. Idzik said it will be based on a "collective opinion," with input from assistant coaches and scouts.

    "When you look at who's going to play, Rex and I will talk about that freely. When you put in the time and effort, and when you make that decision, you feel like it's a 'we' decision, not an individual decision. It's not like someone will drop the gavel and do something counter to what the Jets want to do.” -- Jets GM John Idzik

It's only natural that a GM would have a voice, but Idzik refused to acknowledge that Ryan has the final say. Head coaches almost always have the power to decide who plays and who sits.

"When you look at who's going to play, Rex and I will talk about that freely," Idzik said. "When you put in the time and effort, and when you make that decision, you feel like it's a 'we' decision, not an individual decision. It's not like someone will drop the gavel and do something counter to what the Jets want to do."

Ordinarily, this wouldn't be a big deal, except it's magnified because Ryan is coaching for his job in 2013. He was hired by former GM Mike Tannenbaum, who was fired after the season. Ryan had no previous relationship with Idzik, casting doubt on his future.

Ryan joked about it Saturday, saying, "It's safe to say I won't be here if we draft [Jadeveon] Clowney" -- the presumed No. 1 overall pick in 2014.

Clearly, Ryan is in a win-now mode, which might lead him to prefer the experienced Sanchez over the rookie from West Virginia. Ryan and Sanchez arrived together in 2009 and shared two playoff appearances before hard times hit in 2011.

Smith is perceived as an Idzik guy. After all, Idzik drafted Smith in the second round.

Idzik downplayed the possibility of conflicting agendas.

"It's a collaborative effort, guys," he said. "It's not how it seems. It's not like you wake up one morning and everyone is waiting with bated breath on someone with a scroll and he says, 'Here it is.'

"That's not it, especially with this decision because there's so much that goes into it. It's not going to be a surprise to anybody in the room."

Ryan wasn't available to comment because his media availability occurred before Idzik spoke to reporters. But on Thursday, Ryan suggested he'd make the call with input from others: "When I make that decision, clearly I'll feel great about it -- and not just me, but I'll lean on several other people."

This could be a difficult season for Ryan, who has only two years remaining on his contract. It's a rebuilding year, as the Jets may have 11 new starters. Nevertheless, he will be evaluated after the season. It would be hard to land a contract extension if he misses the playoffs for a third straight year.

Idzik said no one is on the hot seat.

"Pressure is perceived," he said. "Our guys don't feel pressure. Rex doesn't feel pressure. I don't feel pressure. Our players, hopefully they don't feel pressure so they can perform."

Asked about Ryan's Clowney quip, Idzik smiled.

"That's pretty funny," he said.

 

I stand corrected on informing Warner that he'd be a transitional guy.  I still say, despite what was leaked to newspapers, it was not 100% Coughlin's call to bench Warner while they were in a playoff hunt to get practice reps for Eli.  He - like any coach - has never come across as the type that says, "Yeah I know we're in the running at mid-season.  We're 5-3 and also have won 2 of 3 against winning teams headed to the playoffs and 10 wins themselves.  Despite my hard work, and despite all the hard work I demanded of all my coaches and players, I'm going to put an end to that right now and tell them it was all for nothing, because it might be in the franchise's best interest in future years to let a rookie QB get his reps in this season."

 

Coughlin knew the team gave up all those draft picks, and paid all that money, to Eli.  Sure, he could have kept Eli on the bench until they were eliminated (either in December or in the playoffs).  But he hadn't built up any credibility within the organization yet (not like now).  And then this would have been part of the reason the team fired him.  Hell, he was almost fired ("allegedly") 2 different times and each time it was only avoided by winning the superbowl.  Imagine if the team finished 9-7 and missed the playoffs on the last game of the season, and Eli didn't get any reps in.  What would an experienced GM, who burned all his 2004 capital on Eli Manning, think of that situation if his new HC didn't even play the guy.  You know it wasn't because the coaches thought Eli was ready.  We all saw him as a rookie and his first 4 starts - which soundly bounced the Giants out of the playoff hunt - didn't look much better than Geno Smith in the last preseason game.  38% completion rate, 1 TD, 6 picks, and a passer rating of 31.0 says he was not ready.  He looked totally clueless, and performed worse than probably 80% of the league's backups would have done.

 

Regardless, that is one situation and even if I'm 100% wrong on all counts with regards to Eli and Coughlin (who unlike Rex got his stripes as an offensive coach including as Flutie's QB at BC for 3 years), one of the articles you posted had a Jets gotcha journalist - Cimini - point out that this is no big deal.  That it's only noteworthy because Rex is considered to be on the hot seat.  

 

A group discussion could easily be:

 

Idzik to Rex: "Hey I know you think Sanchez is better fit to start week 1.  I agree with you.  We all agree.  There are no TV cameras or reporters in here.  What do you think is the realistic record with Mark at QB before you need to bench him again?"

 

Rex: "Hey I don't have a crystal ball, but the way Mark keeps making costly turnovers our upside at the bye, with my defense leading the way, is maybe 4-5 if we get lucky.  Keep in mind, after that the schedule gets easier.  But I've been on and seen superbowl teams before and this is no superbowl team."

 

Idzik: "Still, looking at the schedule, that's a decent shot at the playoffs if we have 3 or especially if we have 4 wins at the break.  We all look good if we make the playoffs this year.  If you can get us there you'll have done a hell of a job.  Your call, Rex.  It's your team.  If we're 2-7 at the bye, we'll talk then and see what you think we should do at QB; see if you & the team think Geno's any better prepared by then."

 

Now I clearly just made all this up but it's an example of what would certainly be a collaborative group discussion.  But it's not in any way cutting Rex's balls off or telling him he can't start who he wants to.  It's a GM who is interested in his HC's line of thinking.  Rex's decision-making process and the conclusions he draws.  

 

After all, if this season ends in failure Idzik is going to evaluate Rex the way Rex evaluates his players.  To do a proper evaluation of Rex, Idzik will need to look at more than just the win/loss record (or even the defensive ranking Rex so loves).  He's going to want to evaluate his HC's thought process.  See if he thinks this team would be a winner if he had better horses or if he would still stubbornly play his personal favorites in the face of playing those favorites being bad decisions.  Rex has publicly done some bone-headed things (as even those of us who like him will freely acknowledge).  His boss just wants to see why he did certain things.  If there was sound judgment that went into the decisions that was just bad luck, or if it was stupid from the get go.  No different with the decisions re: Sanchez vs Geno.  

 

Idzik said it's not going to be like someone decreeing what the decision is because it's going to be obvious to everyone in the room what to do.  They're going to be discussing it all along, not going into lockdown in the decision bunker one day at the end of camp for a group argument.  In the end the decision will be Rex's.  What Idzik is saying is that Rex's decision (or even if it was his own decision, which he didn't say or hint at, despite the conspiracy theories) is unlikely to be different than what everyone else would do.

[CTM]

So its easy to get to the conference championship game? How many teams do it each year? How many times has Idzik been there the last 6 years with the Seahawks?

 

Yes, once in the playoffs it's easier to get there and loser then it is to win the division. Idzik wasn't the GM in Seattle, what is your point?

[bitonti]

Did you ever stop and think that Idzik would only take this approach with Ryan? That he considers having Ryan as his coach, is like giving your 16 year old the car for the first time? You make sure you give explicit instructions, and you hawk over him so he doesn't ruin anything.

 

I would imagine that Idziks relationship with his next coach will have different rules.

 

this is like saying Idzik will sign good free agents next year because this year he had no cap room. It's wishful thinking, not unlike everyone believing Sparano would improve upon Schotty. Because... different.

 

all this theoreticals aside are we all happy with the way the Jets have handled their QB situation this summer? If not, who is to blame? 

[bitonti]

 

Now I clearly just made all this up but it's an example of what would certainly be a collaborative group discussion.  But it's not in any way cutting Rex's balls off or telling him he can't start who he wants to.  It's a GM who is interested in his HC's line of thinking.  Rex's decision-making process and the conclusions he draws.  

 

 

if Rex's guy is Sanchez (as we all seem to believe) why would Rex collaborate and say hey let's start Geno in week 3 vs the Giants? I mean every other thread is about how the guy has a tattoo of Mark on his arm. 

it was a failed experiment. It's unclear if they could have handled this whole thing worse. 

[RSJ]

Yes, once in the playoffs it's easier to get there and loser then it is to win the division. Idzik wasn't the GM in Seattle, what is your point?

 

My point is, what were his big accomplishments that make you think he will succeed here? Is he from a winning organization? No. Infact Seattle had a losing record during Idzik's tenure there. So what is his track record that gives you any faith he knows what he is doing?

[Scott Dierking]

this is like saying Idzik will sign good free agents next year because this year he had no cap room. It's wishful thinking, not unlike everyone believing Sparano would improve upon Schotty. Because... different.

 

all this theoreticals aside are we all happy with the way the Jets have handled their QB situation this summer? If not, who is to blame? 

This line of thinking is nothing as you say it is.

 

I have no problem with the HC being on a leash, as I don't trust this head coach, and he is not part of the long term answer here

[RSJ]

This line of thinking is nothing as you say it is.

 

I have no problem with the HC being on a leash, as I don't trust this head coach, and he is not part of the long term answer here

 

But you trust this GM? Based on what?

[JoeKlecko]

But you trust this GM? Based on what?

 

Idzik's either gonna turn out to be a good GM or he isn't.  It's way too early to determine that now.  What get all bent out of shape now?  You're gonna drive yourself nuts (and everyone else) with obsessing over Idzik.  Yes, the Jets and Woody have a sorry ass history when it comes to GM hires.  There's much more reason to think that Idzik won't be the right choice than there is to think he's the right one.  That said, the fact that Woody actually used an executive search firm is what gives me some hope with Idzik.  They vetted Idzik and did much of the background work.  If he had totally disregarded them and then hired whomever he wanted, I would have been where you are probably, but he didn't.  Maybe he's different from Hess and can learn.  All of bit's and your ranting and raving aren't gonna do one bit of good.  It's not gonna change things, it's not gonna get Idzik fired now.

 

I'm taking a wait and see approach.  I like some of his moves and there are some I don't like.  He's a rookie GM (plus he's human) and is gonna make some mistakes.  That doesn't mean that he won't learn from them and become a very good GM.  It wouldn't be very hard for him to become the best GM in Jets history.  The bar is set pretty low.

[RSJ]

Idzik's either gonna turn out to be a good GM or he isn't.  It's way too early to determine that now.  What get all bent out of shape now?  You're gonna drive yourself nuts (and everyone else) with obsessing over Idzik.  Yes, the Jets and Woody have a sorry ass history when it comes to GM hires.  There's much more reason to think that Idzik won't be the right choice than there is to think he's the right one.  That said, the fact that Woody actually used an executive search firm is what gives me some hope with Idzik.  They vetted Idzik and did much of the background work.  If he had totally disregarded them and then hired whomever he wanted, I would have been where you are probably, but he didn't.  Maybe he's different from Hess and can learn.  All of bit's and your ranting and raving aren't gonna do one bit of good.  It's not gonna change things, it's not gonna get Idzik fired now.

 

I'm taking a wait and see approach.  I like some of his moves and there are some I don't like.  He's a rookie GM (plus he's human) and is gonna make some mistakes.  That doesn't mean that he won't learn from them and become a very good GM.  It wouldn't be very hard for him to become the best GM in Jets history.  The bar is set pretty low.

 

Fair enough.

[jbone]

if Rex's guy is Sanchez (as we all seem to believe) why would Rex collaborate and say hey let's start Geno in week 3 vs the Giants? I mean every other thread is about how the guy has a tattoo of Mark on his arm. 

it was a failed experiment. It's unclear if they could have handled this whole thing worse. 

Lots of "experiments" fail in the preseason. That's what it is for........

[ZachEY]

But you trust this GM? Based on what?

 

Based on him starting the rebuild that this team needs and not mortgaging a day beyond this season for the hopes of going from 4-12 to 6-10.  You may not like the plan... Fine.  But, at least there is one.

[CTM]

My point is, what were his big accomplishments that make you think he will succeed here? Is he from a winning organization? No. Infact Seattle had a losing record during Idzik's tenure there. So what is his track record that gives you any faith he knows what he is doing?

I dont think he'll succeed here.,, I'm simply stating that he should be inserting himself between Rex and the QB decision... not because idzik is great, but because Rex has proven himself to be stubborn , biased and generally clueless when it comes to his QB

[bitonti]

 Rex has proven himself to be stubborn , biased and generally clueless when it comes to his QB

 

people say Rex has been clueless on the QB, but he's never had a better option than Sanchez. He probably still doesn't. What's so clueless about playing the best player? What are the alternatives?

[RSJ]

I dont think he'll succeed here.,, I'm simply stating that he should be inserting himself between Rex and the QB decision... not because idzik is great, but because Rex has proven himself to be stubborn , biased and generally clueless when it comes to his QB

 

I agree with you on Rex - but he hasnt had better options in his defense. And I thought that is why they hired MM. I would rather it be the OC's call then the GM's.