Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 You brought into the thread. In my business we call this non-clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I can counter by asking, are you saying there was no acumen in drafting Tom Brady? That's what you are saying? In your opinion, that was 100% luck? Where did I relate the drafting of Brady to something with Rex? I'd put the luck factor comfortably in the 90+% range. What would you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 In my business we call this non-clarity Nah. It's pretty clear, just stupidly written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbone Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 No one is claiming or denying Belichick isn't skilled at what he does. But, the proposition that Belichick knew what he was getting when he drafted Brady in the 6th is not realistic. If Bill knew what he would be getting from Brady, he would have used his 1st round pick on him. That would show me serious acumen. Taking him in the 6th showed me Belichick saw POTENTIAL in him. Coaches see potential in dozens of players each year and depending how the draft goes they either get the opportunity to coach them or they do not. Just so happens, Belichick got that opportunity with Brady and got far more than he ever thought he would or could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'd put the luck factor comfortably in the 90+% range. What would you say? 50-50% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 50-50% Considering that roughly half of all sixth round picks to on to be NFL HoF'ers, that's probably pretty close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Considering that roughly half of all sixth round picks to on to be NFL HoF'ers, that's probably pretty close. Considering that 31 other teams had the ability to draft Tom Brady before the Patriots did, I would say they had better intelligence and saw greater potential than others did. That is called doing your homework. They did not pick his name out of a hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Considering that 31 other teams had the ability to draft Tom Brady before the Patriots did, I would say they had better intelligence and saw greater potential than others did. That is called doing your homework. They did not pick his name out of a hat. Sure, that homework and better intelligence that led to so many other outstanding sixth round picks for them. It's obvious the skill involved based on all those other successes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Sure, that homework and better intelligence that led to so many other outstanding sixth round picks for them. It's obvious the skill involved based on all those other successes. You only have to hit on one of them to be considered good. While others were sleeping, they pounced. Can't take that away from them. Was it "dumb luck" that the Jets whiffed on Sanchez in the first round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 You only have to hit on one of them to be considered good. Actually, if you only hit on one, you're probably going to be considered lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Actually, if you only hit on one, you're probably going to be considered lucky. They also had a relative hit with Matt Cassell in the 7th round, so they seem to know what they are doing with QB's late. The Jets should be so "lucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Luck is the residue of design. You don't know what was in BB's mind. But the Patriots saw something in Brady that no one else saw. If you want to dismiss that as luck, it may be sour grapes. He might be playing for another team by now if it wasn't for Mo Lewis. Do we give them credit for running the play Mo slaughtered Bledsoe's spleen on as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 They also had a relative hit with Matt Cassell in the 7th round, so they seem to know what they are doing with QB's late. The Jets should be so "lucky" Matt Simms >>>> Matt Cassel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 They also had a relative hit with Matt Cassell in the 7th round, so they seem to know what they are doing with QB's late. The Jets should be so "lucky" They also took Kevin O'Connell in the 3rd (2008). And Ryan Mallett in the 3rd (2011). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 And Zac Robinson in the 7th (2010). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 And Kliff Kingsbury in the 6th (2003). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 And Rohan Davey in the 4th (2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Yeah, lots of Hall of Fame QB's in that crop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Accumulating a lot of draft picks and nailing one of them doesn't impress me. The Patriots have had 124 picks since 2000. That's an AVERAGE of 8.9 picks per year. Their philosophy is "accumulate tons of picks and hope you hit". Here's the full list of busts they've had in those 124 picks: Adrian Klemm J.R. Redmond Greg Randall Dave Stachelski Jeff Marriott Antwan Harris David Nugent Casey Tisdale Patrick Pass Brock Williams Kenyatta Jones Jabari Holloway Hakim Akbar Arther Love Leonard Myers Owen Pochman TJ Turner Rohan Davey Jarvis Green Antwoine Womack Eugene Wilson Bethel Johnson Dan Klecko Kliff Kingsbury Spencer Nead Ethan Kelley Ben Watson Marquise Hill Guss Scott Dexter Reid Cedric Cobbs P.K. Sam Christian Morton Ellis Hobbs Nick Kaczur James Sanders Ryan Claridge Andy Stokes Laurence Maroney Chad Jackson David Thomas Garrett Mills Ryan O'Callaghan Jeremy Mincey Dan Stevenson LeKevin Smith Willie Andrews Brandon Meriweather Kareem Brown Clint Oldenburg Justin Rogers Mike Richardson Justise Hairston Jeremy Ebert Corey Hilliard Oscar Lua Mike Elgin Terrence Wheatley Shawn Crable Kevin O'Connell Jonathan Wilhite Matt Slater Bo Ruud Patrick Chung Ron Brace Darius Butler Brandon Tate Tyrone McKenzie Rich Ohrnberger George Bussey Myron Pryor Darryl Richard Jermaine Cunningham Taylor Price Thomas Welch Kade Weston Zac Robinson Ras-I Dowling Lee Smith Markell Carter Malcolm Williams Jeff Bequette 124 picks. At least 82 complete and total busts. And I didn't even factor in the 2012 and 2013 drafts to the equation since its "too soon to tell". If you're going to celebrate Belichick's genius, you may want to leave his use of the NFL draft out of it. Landing Tom Brady was complete and total luck. Arguing that it was "all part of the design" is completely false, because the design of the Patriot system has been to wear a blindfold and throw darts at random draft-eligible players and hope some of them stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Luck is the residue of design. You don't know what was in BB's mind. But the Patriots saw something in Brady that no one else saw. If you want to dismiss that as luck, it may be sour grapes. You are just the King of Cliches, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 You are just the King of Cliches, huh? Especially since there's no "design" to the Pats drafts. The design from 2001-2006 was to rely on veteran leadership (most of which were free agent signings) and Brady. The strategy in 2007 was to rely on Tom Brady and Randy Moss having a record setting season. And from 2008 to today it has been to rely completely on Brady, because the defense isn't stopping anybody. None of that speaks to any kind of "building through the draft" mentality. I'm pretty sure the only area on the field where Belichick has had ANY consistent success is in drafting offensive linemen, which as it turns out is probably the safest unit in the draft. If you take top-rated OL, you're probably going to have a good offensive line. GENIUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Accumulating a lot of draft picks and nailing one of them doesn't impress me. The Patriots have had 124 picks since 2000. That's an AVERAGE of 8.9 picks per year. Their philosophy is "accumulate tons of picks and hope you hit". Here's the full list of busts they've had in those 124 picks: Adrian Klemm J.R. Redmond Greg Randall Dave Stachelski Jeff Marriott Antwan Harris David Nugent Casey Tisdale Patrick Pass Brock Williams Kenyatta Jones Jabari Holloway Hakim Akbar Arther Love Leonard Myers Owen Pochman TJ Turner Rohan Davey Jarvis Green Antwoine Womack Eugene Wilson Bethel Johnson Dan Klecko Kliff Kingsbury Spencer Nead Ethan Kelley Ben Watson Marquise Hill Guss Scott Dexter Reid Cedric Cobbs P.K. Sam Christian Morton Ellis Hobbs Nick Kaczur James Sanders Ryan Claridge Andy Stokes Laurence Maroney Chad Jackson David Thomas Garrett Mills Ryan O'Callaghan Jeremy Mincey Dan Stevenson LeKevin Smith Willie Andrews Brandon Meriweather Kareem Brown Clint Oldenburg Justin Rogers Mike Richardson Justise Hairston Jeremy Ebert Corey Hilliard Oscar Lua Mike Elgin Terrence Wheatley Shawn Crable Kevin O'Connell Jonathan Wilhite Matt Slater Bo Ruud Patrick Chung Ron Brace Darius Butler Brandon Tate Tyrone McKenzie Rich Ohrnberger George Bussey Myron Pryor Darryl Richard Jermaine Cunningham Taylor Price Thomas Welch Kade Weston Zac Robinson Ras-I Dowling Lee Smith Markell Carter Malcolm Williams Jeff Bequette 124 picks. At least 82 complete and total busts. And I didn't even factor in the 2012 and 2013 drafts to the equation since its "too soon to tell". If you're going to celebrate Belichick's genius, you may want to leave his use of the NFL draft out of it. Landing Tom Brady was complete and total luck. Arguing that it was "all part of the design" is completely false, because the design of the Patriot system has been to wear a blindfold and throw darts at random draft-eligible players and hope some of them stick. Shall we compare their record and achievements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 You are just the King of Cliches, huh? Do you know the origin of that saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Shall we compare their record and achievements? Seriously? That's been pointed out already in this thread. At the same point in their head coaching careers Rex has been significantlyy more successful than Belichick. You keep trying to compare an NFL head coach who has been an NFL head coach for 17 years with someone who has only been in that position for four years. If you are making that comparison, the only way to make it remotely accurate or fair is to compare what the longer tenured coach had accomplished when he had been doing it as long as the lesser tenured coach. Otherwise, you're just cherry picking. You are saying "let me compare Rex Ryan to the coach widely considered the current best in the NFL." Of course Rex isn't going to look as good when you compare their entire careers but no one is going to look good when you compare them to Belichick right now. If you compare Rex's four years as a head coach to Belichick's first four years, when he was with Cleveland, didn't have an all-time great at QB, in other words: leveling the playing field, Rex compares not just favorably, he looks awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Do you know the origin of that saying? Do I care? It's not a valid argument. Its your defense mechanism when you have no facts or statistics to back up your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Seriously? That's been pointed out already in this thread. At the same point in their head coaching careers Rex has been significantlyy more successful than Belichick. You keep trying to compare an NFL head coach who has been an NFL head coach for 17 years with someone who has only been in that position for four years. If you are making that comparison, the only way to make it remotely accurate or fair is to compare what the longer tenured coach had accomplished when he had been doing it as long as the lesser tenured coach. Otherwise, you're just cherry picking. You are saying "let me compare Rex Ryan to the coach widely considered the current best in the NFL." Of course Rex isn't going to look as good when you compare their entire careers but no one is going to look good when you compare them to Belichick right now. If you compare Rex's four years as a head coach to Belichick's first four years, when he was with Cleveland, didn't have an all-time great at QB, in other words: leveling the playing field, Rex compares not just favorably, he looks awesome. Exactly how should I compare Rex Ryan in future years of coaching? The NFL does not work that way. You are judged on your track record, not what future potential may be. The team that BB inherited in Cleveland, does not compare in talent to what RR inherited. The end of the BB tenure in Cleveland was a TRUE CIRCUS. The last year was a mess. They were actually building something there. In comparison, Rex's record has been in decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Exactly how should I compare Rex Ryan in future years of coaching? The NFL does not work that way. You are judged on your track record, not what future potential may be. The team that BB inherited in Cleveland, does not compare in talent to what RR inherited. The end of the BB tenure in Cleveland was a TRUE CIRCUS. The last year was a mess. They were actually building something there. In comparison, Rex's record has been in decline. I am comparing them on their track record at the same point in their careers. No one is making any future judgments. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I am comparing them on their track record at the same point in their careers. No one is making any future judgments. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? The situations were not exactly the same. But, if you want comparison-BB'sClevelands teams were actually ascending, until the announcement by Modell. RR team's? In decline for the last 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The situations were not exactly the same. But, if you want comparison-BB'sClevelands teams were actually ascending, until the announcement by Modell. RR team's? In decline for the last 2 years. They were ascending, until they weren't. PS: They were already 4-5 and had lost 4 of their last 5 when the announcement was made, but hey! The Belichick legend lives on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 The situations were not exactly the same. But, if you want comparison-BB'sClevelands teams were actually ascending, until the announcement by Modell. RR team's? In decline for the last 2 years. Of course they aren't. No two situations are ever going to be the same. But you keep spinning until you can claim yourself some semblance of a victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 They were ascending, until they weren't. Well, the Modell announcement kind of torpedoed that last year, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Of course they aren't. No two situations are ever going to be the same. But you keep spinning until you can claim yourself some semblance of a victory. Are you denying that the first 4 yars's of BB showed continued improvement., While RR has shown decline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Exactly how should I compare Rex Ryan in future years of coaching? The NFL does not work that way. You are judged on your track record, not what future potential may be. The team that BB inherited in Cleveland, does not compare in talent to what RR inherited. The end of the BB tenure in Cleveland was a TRUE CIRCUS. The last year was a mess. They were actually building something there. In comparison, Rex's record has been in decline. So if Rex ends the decline this season will you admit you were wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Are you denying that the first 4 yars's of BB showed continued improvement., While RR has shown decline? No, because in his third year BB went 11-5 and he then went 5-11 the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Well, the Modell announcement kind of torpedoed that last year, wouldn't you say? He went 11-5 the last two years in Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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