Who's willing to go on record about the QBs

[SickJetFan]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

This has already been posted.  It's a blog quoting a blog.   Ourlads is the only source that has this data.  They've been doing it since 2008.  Not sure how valid this source is. 

you dont believe them?

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2017/03/13/greg-gabriel-is-a-quarterbacks-velocity-an-indicator-of-how-good-he-will-be-in-the-nfl/a93ef5p/

here is another link

[SickJetFan]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If you look at JiF's link, ourlads is the one doing it.  Ourlads sets up radar guns and actually uses them on the passes during the drills.  The real question to me is if it is a specific drill (throw for highest velocity!) or if they are just pointing the gun at throws.

My understanding is that it is more of a cut-off than an indicator of success.  More than 55 mph you can be a legit NFL QB, less than 55 mph, you can't.  That is what they say in these articles anyway.  Hackenberg 56 mph, Petty 53 mph.  For all his flaws, Petty seems to have enough velocity to me. 

Matt Flynn threw at 50 and had pretty good career 

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, SickJetFan said:

Matt Flynn threw at 50 and had pretty good career 

He started 7 games.  

[JiFtheOracle]

3 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

oh and btw I do not think it is used as THE Tool to measure potential future QB success....its just one of the many and wont be 100%

That's kind of my thing.  This isnt baseball where it's the same distance every single pitch and its there is no change in the variable.  Who knows how accurate it is in that scenario and you dont know if the QB was putting all he had on it every single throw.  Plus, they've only been using this data since 2008, many QB's didnt throw.  I've read that 50 is considered the minimum but and 1mph can make that big of a difference.  That seems crazy. I've watched the kid throw it all around the field by college teams filled with NFL talent.  That 1mph didnt effect him vs. Bama. 

I can say this, I watched all the QB's throw and it looked like Watson by far had the most zip, accuracy and touch. 

[SickJetFan]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

He started 7 games.  

meaning he made some good $$$$$$$

[SickJetFan]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

That's kind of my thing.  This isnt baseball where it's the same distance every single pitch and its there is no change in the variable.  Who knows how accurate it is in that scenario and you dont know if the QB was putting all he had on it every single throw.  Plus, they've only been using this data since 2008, many QB's didnt throw.  I've read that 50 is considered the minimum but and 1mph can make that big of a difference.  That seems crazy. I've watched the kid throw it all around the field by college teams filled with NFL talent.  That 1mph didnt effect him vs. Bama. 

I can say this, I watched all the QB's throw and it looked like Watson by far had the most zip, accuracy and touch. 

yes but when you add all the INT he has had then consider the tighter windows in NFL maybe it is just another red flag

[JiFtheOracle]

11 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

you dont believe them?

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2017/03/13/greg-gabriel-is-a-quarterbacks-velocity-an-indicator-of-how-good-he-will-be-in-the-nfl/a93ef5p/

here is another link

I posted this...did you read it?  It poopoo's on the theory. 

[SickJetFan]

Just now, JiF said:

I posted this...did you read it?  It poopoo's on the theory. 

yes i saw that - but I would not discount velocity either.  Also someone throwing 60 doesnt make them better.  so like i said i think it is a good tool but there is no 1 tool.

[JiFtheOracle]

6 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

yes but when you add all the INT he has had then consider the tighter windows in NFL maybe it is just another red flag

Meh I guess but he also threw 90 TD's and velocity didnt bother him then.  Didnt bother him going for 825, 7/1 at 64% vs. Bama.  

IDK some DBags holding a gun randomly taking shots of passes does nothing for me.  Again, you have no clue if the QB is putting everything he has on it.  Or maybe he was more worried about completing the pass and didnt need extra speed to get there because there arent defenders on the field.  Or they werent putting all their juice on it because its not an official combine measurement and nobody cares about this other than Ourlads who cant even provide enough data to make any type of accurate theory based on these #'s. 

 

[JiFtheOracle]

6 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

yes i saw that - but I would not discount velocity either.  Also someone throwing 60 doesnt make them better.  so like i said i think it is a good tool but there is no 1 tool.

I'm not discounting it, I'm discounting the people reporting it and the overall way they do it and the fact the data cant really support their theory.  If Watson was to be asked, show me your fastball and you knew that particular throw he put everything on it, I'd listen.  This is just at random and the QB doesnt know or care that they're clocking him. 

[Stark]

On 3/13/2017 at 8:38 AM, JiF said:

If was Mac and Watson was there when the Jets are on the clock, the #6 pick in the 2017 draft would be the fast made selection in the history of the draft.  I think he's going to be special. 

I want nothing to do with any other QB in the draft other than Mahones.  I could get behind that pick on sheer talent alone.  He's got some undeniable skills that you cant teach.  Obviously the system and conference are a huge factor and would probably prevent me from taking him at #6 overall but if he dropped to the 2nd and the Jets took him, I wouldnt be upset at all.

 

I also would question why only 8 qb's had velocity readings. Also, if the NFL wanted to measure velocity I would think they would have a drill for it, and it would be a large draw to QB drills they could take readings at different yardage distances to give accurate arm strength evaluation.

 

The fact that there is only limited qb's with a reading makes me wonder about how accurate or how sketchy these readings are.

[maury77]

Regarding the MPH controversy with Watson, I've watched the combine for a couple of years now. The passing drills put an emphasis on footwork and accurately placing the football. They don't ask you to throw it as hard as you can or to fit the throw between 2 defenders. If someone like Watson is throwing touch passes out there in order to make sure the pass is complete, the pass is going to come in a little slower. That doesn't mean the QB can't dial it up when he has to. 

Glennon is one of the only other guys that threw 49 MPH. If you have watched Glennon in college or the pros, do you have any questions about his arm talent? I certainly don't. 

[Stark]

 

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, maury77 said:

The passing drills put an emphasis on footwork and accurately placing the football. If someone like Watson is throwing touch passes out there in order to make sure the pass is complete, the pass is going to come in a little slower. That doesn't mean the QB can't dial it up when he has to. 

It does raise the question:  If you HAVE to throw slow "touch passes" at slower than normal speeds in order to be accurate, is that not a cause for concern?  

The player in question should be accurate at his normal throwing speeds, not only when he takes the edge off.

[Stark]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

It does raise the question:  If you HAVE to throw slow "touch passes" at slower than normal speeds in order to be accurate, is that not a cause for concern?  

The player in question should be accurate at his normal throwing speeds, not only when he takes the edge off.

It could be cause for concern, however, Watson was the more accurate QB at the combine based on what I watched. So then the other QB's should have tried to be more accurate to prove a point of concern. 

We also don't know if the throws were "slower" or "normal". We don't even know how accurate the velocity readings are. I don't believe arm strength is a concern with scouts or coaches reviews of Watson.

[SickJetFan]

22 minutes ago, JiF said:

I'm not discounting it, I'm discounting the people reporting it and the overall way they do it and the fact the data cant really support their theory.  If Watson was to be asked, show me your fastball and you knew that particular throw he put everything on it, I'd listen.  This is just at random and the QB doesnt know or care that they're clocking him. 

I think they know they are being clocked

[SickJetFan]

27 minutes ago, JiF said:

Meh I guess but he also threw 90 TD's and velocity didnt bother him then.  Didnt bother him going for 825, 7/1 at 64% vs. Bama.  

IDK some DBags holding a gun randomly taking shots of passes does nothing for me.  Again, you have no clue if the QB is putting everything he has on it.  Or maybe he was more worried about completing the pass and didnt need extra speed to get there because there arent defenders on the field.  Or they werent putting all their juice on it because its not an official combine measurement and nobody cares about this other than Ourlads who cant even provide enough data to make any type of accurate theory based on these #'s. 

 

No doubt about it Clemson always has good offense and they also have number 1 WR drafted each year it seems so he has always had a great supporting cast.  Who was Petty throwing too with all his 400 yard games in college - I actually have no idea - I know his RB is out of football.

[Beerfish]

All I know is that watching the combine drills  Watsons passes did not look appreciably worse than any of the other QBs and looked more accurate than some of the strong arms.

It looked to me like Trubitzsky was really trying to up the power n his throws and Mahommes did not look accurate.

I'll take a guy with acceptable arm strength and accuracy over fire baller with no accuracy any day.

 

[SickJetFan]

4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

All I know is that watching the combine drills  Watsons passes did not look appreciably worse than any of the other QBs and looked more accurate than some of the strong arms.

It looked to me like Trubitzsky was really trying to up the power n his throws and Mahommes did not look accurate.

I'll take a guy with acceptable arm strength and accuracy over fire baller with no accuracy any day.

 

and the 3 QB mentioned were not considered top 10 draft picks before combine - so hard to gauge how they did against one another if they all will struggle in nfl

[maury77]

26 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

No doubt about it Clemson always has good offense and they also have number 1 WR drafted each year it seems so he has always had a great supporting cast.  Who was Petty throwing too with all his 400 yard games in college - I actually have no idea - I know his RB is out of football.

Petty was throwing to Corey Coleman (2016 first round draft pick) and K.D. Cannon (who is going to be picked in this year's draft). 

[JiFtheOracle]

29 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

I think they know they are being clocked

Do they?  I doubt it. 

27 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

No doubt about it Clemson always has good offense and they also have number 1 WR drafted each year it seems so he has always had a great supporting cast.  Who was Petty throwing too with all his 400 yard games in college - I actually have no idea - I know his RB is out of football.

Corey Coleman.  He was select 15th overall last year. 

[UntouchableCrew]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2017/03/13/greg-gabriel-is-a-quarterbacks-velocity-an-indicator-of-how-good-he-will-be-in-the-nfl/a93ef5p/

The Bears' former director of college scouting, Greg Gabriel has over 30 years of experience in NFL scouting and he'll be breaking down the top NFL prospects to watch this college season and other NFL news each week here at Pro Football Weekly. You can follow Greg on Twitter @greggabe

On recent days there has been a lot of chatter on Twitter about the throwing velocity of the quarterbacks at the annual Scouting Combine. What velocity measures is how fast the ball is moving once thrown. In other words, miles per hour.

Some of the results from the Combine were as follows: Patrick Mahomes: 60 mph, Davis Webb: 59 mph, DeShone Kizer: 56 mph, Mitch Trubisky and Jerod Evans: 55 mph, Nate Peterman and Brad Kaaya: 53 mph and Deshaun Watson: 49 mph. The main Twitter concern was that Watson does not have an NFL arm. Nonsense!

After these results were tweeted out, there were a number of other tweets saying things such as, “The minimal number a QB can have is 55" or, "Anyone with less than 55 will struggle to play in the NFL,” etc.

I found these tweets amusing, as the people who were posting these things don’t have any idea of what they are talking about. Why? The “velocity” stat has only been used for a few years and there is not nearly enough evidence to tell us a thing other than the miles per hour a quarterback's throw is traveling. Ten years from now there may be some evidence, but today there is nothing. In fact when I asked some GMs and coaches around the league that I know about the stat they all agreed it was meaningless at this time as far as predicting anything. Again, not enough data.

Most if not all of the top quarterbacks in the league never had their velocity measured at the Combine. I guarantee you that some of the greatest of all-time would have “flunked’ the velocity test. Coming out of college Peyton Manning had a good, but not a great arm. Tom Brady actually had a bit less than a good arm and Drew Brees' arm strength coming out was below average at best.

How did we know this? We watched practice live and a lot of game tape. I was at a Purdue practice during Brees' final year and he struggled to complete a 12-yard out in windy conditions. I was at Peyton Manning’s Pro Day and in a scripted workout he showed far less than a cannon. One of the knocks on Brady coming out was he couldn’t “drive” the ball.

After each of these quarterbacks spent some time in the National Football League, their arm strength improved. In fact, not only did it improve, but it improved dramatically.

In many college programs, the quarterback is not forced to do much in the weight room. Once they get to the NFL, things change. If you want to keep your job and be able to compete, you have to do everything you can to improve. There are numerous exercises quarterbacks can do to improve their arm strength. These players look to improve grip strength, forearm strength and triceps strength. Improving those areas will improve the zip a quarterback has on the ball.

Yes, coaches and evaluators want a quarterback to have a strong arm, but they also want the player to throw a tight ball. In fact many believe “spin” is more important than outright arm strength. A strong-armed quarterback who doesn’t throw a tight ball will struggle in the wind. Likewise, a quarterback with an average arm can have success in the wind or cold if he can spin the ball properly.

Getting back to Deshaun Watson. Anyone who doesn’t think his arm is strong enough to play in the NFL doesn’t know how to evaluate. He has no trouble making every required NFL throw. He has proven this over and over again on tape. While he may not have the quickest release, he can make all the throws and can easily throw the ball 55 yards downfield with a tight spiral.

Next time you see such nonsense, just throw it away. It is, at best, a very inexact stat that people in the NFL aren’t putting a whole lot of stock in. It just so happens that those are the people that matter when it comes to evaluations.