Defense Wins Championships

[Phinsuck]

Phin - We need more than just a nose tackle on defense. How 'bout a pass rushing OLB? Some help in the defensive backfield?

Our secondary actually looks pretty good now, especially after the Andre Dyson signing. Justin Miller, Erik Coleman and Kerry Rhodes are all up and coming players I feel good about.

Pass rushing OLB? Sounds like you just want to replace John Abraham. Me, my priority on defense is getting a Nose Tackle who can stuff the run and fill gaps.

We need everything on offense. I originally was a big D'Brick guy but recently I changed my mind because I see that there are a lot of quality players at the Offensive Tackle position.

[The Troll]

Let me make sure I heard you correctly ... An "Offensive Tackle" that can put the entire offense on his back?

Sorry ... you lost me with that quote.

There is no such player and never has been. Even Monoz never put an offense on his back. Linemen are spokes on the wheel. Albeit, LT is the key position on the line, especially in the passing game, but that's as far as I'll go.

You honestly think the Ravens would have even MADE IT to that Super Bowl without Jon Ogden? They would have been one and done just like the Bears. Orlando Pace was the second most important piece, behind Marshall Faulk, in the Greatest Show on Turf. And, don't just chalk it up to coincidence that Faulk went from very good back in Indy to first ballot Hall of Famer when he had Pace blocking for him. Without Walter Jones, do you think Shaun Alexander would be doing the things he's doing? How about the Jaguars of the late 90's? Think they would have been so dominant if Tony Boselli hadn't been around?

Offensive linemen are just spokes in the wheel. That rare, elusive franchise left tackle is NOT.

[Phinsuck]

You honestly think the Ravens would have even MADE IT to that Super Bowl without Jon Ogden? They would have been one and done just like the Bears. Orlando Pace was the second most important piece, behind Marshall Faulk, in the Greatest Show on Turf. And, don't just chalk it up to coincidence that Faulk went from very good back in Indy to first ballot Hall of Famer when he had Pace blocking for him. Without Walter Jones, do you think Shaun Alexander would be doing the things he's doing? How about the Jaguars of the late 90's? Think they would have been so dominant if Tony Boselli hadn't been around?

Offensive linemen are just spokes in the wheel. That rare, elusive franchise left tackle is NOT.

I can see your point about having a superstar OL but I'd rather have a good OL and superstar QB/RB than a superstar OL and an ok QB/RB.

The Patriots have a lot of good linemen but no superstars. Their superstars are their QB and front 7 on defense. That's the formula Mangini knows and that's why I think we won't draft Ferguson.

[The Troll]

I can see your point about having a superstar OL but I'd rather have a good OL and superstar QB/RB than a superstar OL and an ok QB/RB.

The Patriots have a lot of good linemen but no superstars. Their superstars are their QB and front 7 on defense. That's the formula Mangini knows and that's why I think we won't draft Ferguson.

Who says we can't get both? If the Jets can draft D'Brick at 4, there is a possibility that either DeAngelo Williams or Laurence Maroney will be there at 29.

[Phinsuck]

Who says we can't get both? If the Jets can draft D'Brick at 4, there is a possibility that either DeAngelo Williams or Laurence Maroney will be there at 29.

Or maybe even White will fall to 29. If we can get both D'Brick and Lendale White this will be one happy Jets fan.

[The Troll]

Or maybe even White will fall to 29. If we can get both D'Brick and Lendale White this will be one happy Jets fan.

I want no part of White. I loved him in college, but after all the things that have happened since the Rose Bowl, I have visions of Ron Dayne part deaux dancing in my head.

[Phinsuck]

After Reggie Bush White is the second best running back in the draft. He isn't Ron Dayne. Ron Dayne doesn't run with power. I've watched a lot of USC games and I also watched a lot of Giants games on tv and the only similarity I see is that they are both big. Dayne is a finesse back. White runs hard and craves contact. Both big guys but they use their bodies differently.

[The Troll]

After Reggie Bush White is the second best running back in the draft. He isn't Ron Dayne. Ron Dayne doesn't run with power. I've watched a lot of USC games and I also watched a lot of Giants games on tv and the only similarity I see is that they are both big. Dayne is a finesse back. White runs hard and craves contact. Both big guys but they use their bodies differently.

I wasn't comparing his rushing style to Dayne's. I compared him to Dayne because both were very dominant in college and both are overweight underachievers. I just don't see White making it in the NFL, barring a major change in attitude. You can't coast by on talent alone in the National Football League. The events of the past couple months have shown that White is immature and lazy. I would rather have a less talented guy that busts his ass to be the best he can possibly be, rather than a lazy malcontent that doesn't utilize his God-given talent to the fullest ability.

Does White have more talent than any back besides Bush in this draft? Probably. But, unless he does a complete 180, don't think for a second that history will remember it that way.

[Phinsuck]

I'll take talent over attitude. Brooks Bollinger has all the heart in the world but he'll never win in the nfl. White is still a young kid and I think if you give him a good role model in Curtis Martin plus a training camp where he'll be forced to bust his ass he'll be alright.

[JoeWillie]

You honestly think the Ravens would have even MADE IT to that Super Bowl without Jon Ogden? They would have been one and done just like the Bears. Orlando Pace was the second most important piece, behind Marshall Faulk, in the Greatest Show on Turf. And, don't just chalk it up to coincidence that Faulk went from very good back in Indy to first ballot Hall of Famer when he had Pace blocking for him. Without Walter Jones, do you think Shaun Alexander would be doing the things he's doing? How about the Jaguars of the late 90's? Think they would have been so dominant if Tony Boselli hadn't been around?

Offensive linemen are just spokes in the wheel. That rare, elusive franchise left tackle is NOT.

Do you really think the Ravens made it to the Super Bowl on the back of Jonathan Ogden? For God's sake they were the 15th ranked offense in the NFL, even with "The Franchise" at LT. Got news for you Troll, the defense got 'em there, NOT Jonathan Ogden. They could have won with Jumbo Elliot playing LT that year.

Also ... didn't realize the Jaguars were such a dominant force in the 90's. How many Super Bowls did the "Boselli led" Jags win again?

Geez.

[Matt39]

I think this thread had proven that there's no exact science to winning in the NFL.

[PatsFanTX]

I loved him in college, but after all the things that have happened since the Rose Bowl

Troll,

Other than a smug attitide and 20 extra pounds, what are "all the things that have happened" since the Rose Bowl that you talk about?

[JoeWillie]

I think this thread had proven that there's no exact science to winning in the NFL.

You're probably right.

What the hell ... DRAFT LEINART!!!!!

[The Troll]

Troll,

Other than a smug attitide and 20 extra pounds, what are "all the things that have happened" since the Rose Bowl that you talk about?

What else needs to happen? I hope your Patriots draft a 250-pound lazy, douche-bag running back that refused to work out at all. Completely fits the Belichick mold, don't he?

Joe Willie, I did not say Ogden carried the Ravens. Of course the defense did. But, without Ogden, they wouldn't have mustered enough offense to even make it to the Super Bowl. The Bears and Bucs had the two best defenses in football this past year. How many playoff games did they win, again?

[JoeWillie]

What else needs to happen? I hope your Patriots draft a 250-pound lazy, douche-bag running back that refused to work out at all. Completely fits the Belichick mold, don't he?

Joe Willie, I did not say Ogden carried the Ravens. Of course the defense did. But, without Ogden, they wouldn't have mustered enough offense to even make it to the Super Bowl. The Bears and Bucs had the two best defenses in football this past year. How many playoff games did they win, again?

Technically, the 5 best defenses in terms of points allowed were Chicago, Indy, Pittsburgh, Denver, & Carolina, in that order. And all together, they won 7 playoff games, including a Super Bowl.

[PatsFanTX]

What else needs to happen? I hope your Patriots draft a 250-pound lazy, douche-bag running back that refused to work out at all. Completely fits the Belichick mold, don't he?

Troll,

If LenDale White is sitting there at #21, does BB pull the trigger or not?

Let me know, why or why not.

[The Troll]

Technically, the 5 best defenses in terms of points allowed were Chicago, Indy, Pittsburgh, Denver, & Carolina, in that order. And all together, they won 7 playoff games, including a Super Bowl.

How are you possibly going to compare the Jets to Indy, Pittsburgh, Denver, or Carolina? You think those teams would have won the same amount of games if their starting offense was the same as the Jets'? If you swap Brooks Bollinger, Curtis Martin, and Laveranues Coles for Ben Roethlisberger, Willie Parker and Hines Ward, do the Steelers still bring home the Lombardi? Do the Colts go 13-0 with Patrick Ramsey handing off to Cedric Houston and throwing to Coles, McCareins, and Cotchery? I guess that Panthers' D would have led them to the NFC title game if they had McCareins, rather than Steve Smith.

All of those teams are great because they have BALANCE between offense and defense. The Jets DO NOT. The only team on that list that is 100% defense is Chicago, and they don't have much to show for it, do they?

[The Troll]

Troll,

If LenDale White is sitting there at #21, does BB pull the trigger or not?

Let me know, why or why not.

I'm not sure whether he does or doesn't. 3 years ago, I would have said no way in hell, but Beli has gotten so damn arrogant that it wouldn't shock me. If he thinks he can turn around David Terrell and Chad Scott, then I'm sure he feels he can turn around White. The only hope White has is that he goes to a team whose head coach will constantly ride his ass. If he doesn't respond to it, then he will be a bust. Somewhere like KC, he would have no chance. Somewhere like New England is one of the few places I could see him being successful.

BTW, Corey Dillon comparisons are not valid when talking about White. Dillon hated Cincinnati and was tired of losing. No one ever questioned his work ethic.

[PatsFanTX]

I'm not sure whether he does or doesn't. 3 years ago, I would have said no way in hell, but Beli has gotten so damn arrogant that it wouldn't shock me. If he thinks he can turn around David Terrell and Chad Scott, then I'm sure he feels he can turn around White. The only hope White has is that he goes to a team whose head coach will constantly ride his ass. If he doesn't respond to it, then he will be a bust. Somewhere like KC, he would have no chance. Somewhere like New England is one of the few places I could see him being successful.

BTW, Corey Dillon comparisons are not valid when talking about White. Dillon hated Cincinnati and was tired of losing. No one ever questioned his work ethic.

Dude, that's why you are a great poster on this board.

I agree, unless BB is smarter than the entire NFL, his arrogance came to a crescendo this off-season. Let's see if his results on the field next year justify his arrogance.

And you are also correct, Dillon was not that big of a problem, he just hated losing in Cincy.

[JoeWillie]

How are you possibly going to compare the Jets to Indy, Pittsburgh, Denver, or Carolina? You think those teams would have won the same amount of games if their starting offense was the same as the Jets'? If you swap Brooks Bollinger, Curtis Martin, and Laveranues Coles for Ben Roethlisberger, Willie Parker and Hines Ward, do the Steelers still bring home the Lombardi? Do the Colts go 13-0 with Patrick Ramsey handing off to Cedric Houston and throwing to Coles, McCareins, and Cotchery? I guess that Panthers' D would have led them to the NFC title game if they had McCareins, rather than Steve Smith.

All of those teams are great because they have BALANCE between offense and defense. The Jets DO NOT. The only team on that list that is 100% defense is Chicago, and they don't have much to show for it, do they?

If you haven't gotten my point by now, it's a lost cause.

[Phinsuck]

If we don't get Haloti Ngata or Broderick Bunkley in this draft I don't see our defense getting much better. Our weakness on D is the fact that our only good Defensive Tackle, Robertson, has a bad knee.

[The Troll]

Alright. Good discussion.

[Greensince69]

You mean gabe watson would not be good? I think the real thing here is this is a 3 year process. You need to lay the foundation this year with o line as a focus and NT an lb. Those positions are the lynch pin and require teammates to learn together and know each others tendencies. Great lines just dont come together and play great. If an interesting project qb is available in the later rounds grab him and but him in the development cycle.

Next year you start to conecentrate on the skill positions, RB, WR, CB. They are easier to fill in FA or the draft and can make an immediate impact as opposed to the linemen. If a brady Quinn or equivilent is out there next year grab him.

As far as the overall argument here it is not that you dont need an offense, its you dont need a Rams type offense to compete for the SB. You need to control the ball and have postitive time of possetion. You cant tire your defense out by having them on the field all the time, and if you can grind you tire the other defenses out. Quite frankly if it would still work, 5 hog type road graders and the old 3 yards and a cloud of dust (lendel white would be great for this) is the ideal game plan. Boring as hell but the defense comes in fresh and aggresive and you score enough to win.

THe west coast strives to do the same thing except using passing. They key is still ball control and time of possecession.

Charlie Weis tried the best of both world and seems to have developed a flex system that achived the goal based on the defense faced, stressing the running game or passing game based on the situation. Again the goal is time of possecission. This is the system I hope we adopt.

A great D and a large margin in time of D will bring playoff victories and chace at a sb.

Needs in this yes draft

- OL (LT G C)

- NT Need to clog th middle

- OLB Edge Rusher type to apply pressure

Where you take them does not matter, as long as they are good players who will fit the system. This is why the Denver deal apeals to me the more picks fill more holes. THink of how happy you would be if we got a winston justice, bunkley (or gabe watson), Carpenter, Jean Giles with the fist 4 picks we had. Its not as sexy as cutler but you would be building a very solid foundation. If Lendale was there at 29 dose not mean i would not consider drafting him (great time of possecsion back and an 8 - 10 year back too) but concentreate on the foundation this year and we will be building to the playoffs.

[NorthCoastJetsFan]

I think Green's got it, for the most part.

I would add to his immediate needs, a big-play WR to make other defenses cover the entire field.

When the Jets' turn comes up, they take the BAP at one of those need positions. IMHO, there is no reason to take a QB at #4, just to get him killed behind our tissue paper OL.

You build championship teams from the lines out, if the players are available to you. If you can control the LOS on both sides of the ball, the odds are pretty good you're going to win.

I'll just throw out one thing to consider.... some of these players that we think suck dead dogs might be decent players in a different offensive or defensive system. I'm going to reserve judgement on any pick we make until I see them play.

Unless, of course, they tale a Penn State running back or a tight end.

[bman]

Its funny how Jets fans throw out names and think they will save the franchise...remember last year..everyone was saying that the Jets should draft some Safety (shakur????)..the guy was never even drafted..

then it was Practice squad guy Tim Mggill!..Then Coleman, Rodes, Maddox!

POUHA...

Bottom line is this...You really think Gabe Watson will is going to come in and be better than D rob...or better than Fergy was..

BS..

Dont rely on the draft..

and no one on this board has any clue how these guys will turn out...

Thats why I believe Jets are drafting a Future starter at 4...

leinert most likely..

[Shadetree]

and no one on this board has any clue how these guys will turn out...

Thats why I believe Jets are drafting a Future starter at 4...

leinert most likely..

Hawk starts from DAY 1, and no one takes his spot for 6-10 years, 3 downs per series, all the way to Canton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JoeWillie]

You mean gabe watson would not be good? I think the real thing here is this is a 3 year process. You need to lay the foundation this year with o line as a focus and NT an lb. Those positions are the lynch pin and require teammates to learn together and know each others tendencies. Great lines just dont come together and play great. If an interesting project qb is available in the later rounds grab him and but him in the development cycle.

Next year you start to conecentrate on the skill positions, RB, WR, CB. They are easier to fill in FA or the draft and can make an immediate impact as opposed to the linemen. If a brady Quinn or equivilent is out there next year grab him.

As far as the overall argument here it is not that you dont need an offense, its you dont need a Rams type offense to compete for the SB. You need to control the ball and have postitive time of possetion. You cant tire your defense out by having them on the field all the time, and if you can grind you tire the other defenses out. Quite frankly if it would still work, 5 hog type road graders and the old 3 yards and a cloud of dust (lendel white would be great for this) is the ideal game plan. Boring as hell but the defense comes in fresh and aggresive and you score enough to win.

THe west coast strives to do the same thing except using passing. They key is still ball control and time of possecession.

Charlie Weis tried the best of both world and seems to have developed a flex system that achived the goal based on the defense faced, stressing the running game or passing game based on the situation. Again the goal is time of possecission. This is the system I hope we adopt.

A great D and a large margin in time of D will bring playoff victories and chace at a sb.

Needs in this yes draft

- OL (LT G C)

- NT Need to clog th middle

- OLB Edge Rusher type to apply pressure

Where you take them does not matter, as long as they are good players who will fit the system. This is why the Denver deal apeals to me the more picks fill more holes. THink of how happy you would be if we got a winston justice, bunkley (or gabe watson), Carpenter, Jean Giles with the fist 4 picks we had. Its not as sexy as cutler but you would be building a very solid foundation. If Lendale was there at 29 dose not mean i would not consider drafting him (great time of possecsion back and an 8 - 10 year back too) but concentreate on the foundation this year and we will be building to the playoffs.

Greenie - Well said. Probably much better than I said in 6 pages of threads but my point exactly.

Two slight disagreeements.

1) Not sure Lendale is the guy

2) I hate spending big money on offensive linemen when you can get some good ones cheaper in later rounds and free agency. An OLineman at #4 is going to command big money and in the NFL world of the salary cap, I'd much rather use those dollars on impact skill position players.

But i'm definitely on the same page with everything else you said.

[PeterNorth09]

Its funny how Jets fans throw out names and think they will save the franchise...remember last year..everyone was saying that the Jets should draft some Safety (shakur????)..the guy was never even drafted..

then it was Practice squad guy Tim Mggill!..Then Coleman, Rodes, Maddox!

POUHA...

Bottom line is this...You really think Gabe Watson will is going to come in and be better than D rob...or better than Fergy was..

BS..

Dont rely on the draft..

and no one on this board has any clue how these guys will turn out...

Thats why I believe Jets are drafting a Future starter at 4...

leinert most likely..

Leinart probably won't be there at 4. I think Tanenbaum is seriously considering either Young or Cutler right now. Pennington is done and Ramsey is ok if you want to go 7-9 or 8-8. Don't even mention Bollinger

Plus, if we do draft a qb there are a number of teams who will want to give us a package deal (Cards, Vikes).

As for the DT problem I'm starting to like Dusty Dvoracek more than Gabe Watson. Watson was an underacheiver in college. Dvoracek had his problems to but they were off the field and are probably behind him.

Dvoracek is big, nasty and an excellent athlete. His 40 time was better than Ngata's and way better than Watson's. Here's the best part: we can get Dvoracek in Round 3.

[Phinsuck]

Leinart probably won't be there at 4. I think Tanenbaum is seriously considering either Young or Cutler right now. Pennington is done and Ramsey is ok if you want to go 7-9 or 8-8. Don't even mention Bollinger

Plus, if we do draft a qb there are a number of teams who will want to give us a package deal (Cards, Vikes).

As for the DT problem I'm starting to like Dusty Dvoracek more than Gabe Watson. Watson was an underacheiver in college. Dvoracek had his problems to but they were off the field and are probably behind him.

Dvoracek is big, nasty and an excellent athlete. His 40 time was better than Ngata's and way better than Watson's. Here's the best part: we can get Dvoracek in Round 3.

I like Dvoracek too. No one would even be thinking about Gabe Watson if it wasn't for his size. Watson will need a couple years to develop but Dvoarcek can start right away.

I like Cutler more than Vince Young but I think both will be good in the nfl. I don't like our quarterback situation right now and it is foolish to think we should wait a year to get Brady Quinn. A lot can happen in a year and if we win 6 or 7 games we'll have no shot at drafting Quinn anyway. We need to draft a quarterback now.