Defense Wins Championships

[JoeWillie]

A great offense is fun and exciting. A Great Defense wins trophys.

Check out the last 6 Super Bowl Teams and their offensive and defensive league rankings for that year. Winners on top.

2005 - Pittsburgh (#3 Def, #9 Off)

Seattle (#7 Def, #1 Off)

2004 - New England (#2 Def, #4 Off)

Philadelphia (#2 Def, #8 Off)

2003 - New England (#1 Def, #12 Off)

Carolina (#10 Def, #15 Off)

2002 - Tampa Bay (#1 Def, #18 Off)

Oakland (#11 Def, # 2 Off)

2001 - New England (# 6 Def, #6 Off)

St. Louis (#7 Def, #1 Off)

2000 - Baltimore (#1 Def, #14 Off)

Giants (#5 Def, #15 Off)

Anybody see a pattern?

A good defense beats the good offense most of the time.

Dear Tangini - Please rebuild the defense first. That will make us more competitive faster. If you have one, you only need a decent offense to win consistently. See '05 Chicago Bears as an example of a team that turned things around quickly by building the defense.

[shawn306]

9 times out of 10 I would agree with you whole heartedly.

Not this time though.

If the Jets offense was even somewhat close to being mediocre last year then I could see going for a Mario Williams or an AJ Hawk. The Jets offense though was probably one of the worst in the last 25 years !!!!

It has to start on the offensive line with Ferguson, and with the way Lendale White has been dropping if he was there at 29 I would grab him too.

[Sperm Edwards]

Our defense doesn't have too many "holes" though one I would've liked addressed in FA was NT.

DE: Ellis, Kimo, Thomas

NT: ? (Pouha - ew)

DT: Robertson, Kimo

OLB: Barton, Hobson(?)

ILB: Vilma, Hobson(?)

CB: Dyson, Miller

S: Coleman(?), Barrett(?), Rhodes

Before we attack the secondary, consider taht Miller & Rhodes were rookies.Coleman had a pretty good rookie season but sucked last year along with the whole team. Barrett, for all we know, can go from being a liability at CB to a playmaker at safety. Mangini has worked with far worse.

NEEDS: pass-rushing OLB and a NT. Possibly an ILB but not with one of our first 5 picks.

Offense needs: RT, OG, C(Katnik?), LT(Jones?), QB, HB, blocking FB (Askew?), WR (McCariens/Cotchery?), TE(Baker?). We're basically "set" for now with Kendall & Coles. Every other position we could do with an upgrade.

[NIGHT STALKER]

The odds makers (if you believe them) seem to think we have a ton of holes and it's not just the offense...when you're listed at 100-1 to win the SB, you've got way more problems than just one side of the ball.

I don't happen to agree with the odds makers, but I do believe we have to address both lines of our team before we can even think about being competitive.

[JoeWillie]

The Bears were ranked 29th in total offense and made the playoffs with an 11-5 record.

Not denying our offense sucked last year (we were worse than Chicago), but I think much of that had to do with injuries and inexperience at key positions, specifically the guy taking the snaps.

We definitely need to rebuild the "O-line", but I'd rather do that in later rounds and through Free Agency, as it's much cheaper that way. Blowing 1st and 2nd round money on an offensive linemen is not something I'm not a big fan of, even if it's D'Brick.

[bman]

defense does win titles..but offense wins games..

Jets have ZERO offense..ZERO playmakers..and who knows what for QB..

2 of the first 4 picks need to be offense..Period..

..

[mbn007]

The Bears were ranked 29th in total offense and made the playoffs with an 11-5 record.

Not denying our offense sucked last year (we were worse than Chicago), but I think much of that had to do with injuries and inexperience at key positions, specifically the guy taking the snaps.

We definitely need to rebuild the "O-line", but I'd rather do that in later rounds and through Free Agency, as it's much cheaper that way. Blowing 1st and 2nd round money on an offensive linemen is not something I'm not a big fan of, even if it's D'Brick.

When you go three and out most of the time, you are putting to much pressure on your defense.

We need to address that O.Line this season.

[JoeWillie]

When you have to score 3 TD's a game to have a chance to win, you're putting too much pressure on the offense.

Give me a great defense and an average offense over a great offense and an average defense any Sunday of the season.

Besides, as I said, I'm not opposed to drafting offensive line help. Just not in the first 2 rounds. It's a waste of "skill position" money. You can get 'em cheaper through the later rounds and through free agency. History has proven it time and time again.

Cheers.

[JoeWillie]

defense does win titles..but offense wins games..

Jets have ZERO offense..ZERO playmakers..and who knows what for QB..

2 of the first 4 picks need to be offense..Period..

..

You could say the same thing about the Bears last season, but they made the playoffs ... with DEFENSE.

[joewilly]

yo willie, the bears had an easy schedule last year. I think mangini will address both sides of the ball this draft but the way our qb's got killed last year, we need an ol overhaul. i'm surprised jolley is still with us. we need meat on the bones of our tight ends as well

[Greensince69]

You dont need a great offense but you need one that does 2 things, controls time of possetion and makes no mistakes. 3 and outs kill you so you need a good oline and a running game. Then the D can come on strong. Most glating needs in day one LT, NT, Rushing OLB, OG, C RB. Take the BAP available for value but these ae the slots i see that need filling the most IMHO.

[bman]

did the bears get to the superbowl???

Perhaps if they had an offense...

Do you remember the Jets 04?

VERY VERY hot defense...

Offense couldn't do ****e against Pittsburg...

You need a Hot QB and a HOT Defense to make it in the NFL...

Jets need a LOT of help on offense.

[JoeWillie]

did the bears get to the superbowl???

Perhaps if they had an offense...

Do you remember the Jets 04?

VERY VERY hot defense...

Offense couldn't do ****e against Pittsburg...

You need a Hot QB and a HOT Defense to make it in the NFL...

Jets need a LOT of help on offense.

Did you read the past SB winners and where they ranked on "D" and "O"? Can you say Baltimore Ravens or Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who by the way beat the #2 ranked offense that year. Check history. Offense does not determine championships in the large majority of cases.

Besides, the Jets ain't going to the Super Bowl this year regardless of who they draft.

We're talking about building for an eventual champion, which means you have to create a "winning environment" and that is done around defense, not offense.

Not that we don't need to rebuild the "O-Line". I've said repeatedly we need to do that, but not with "franchise or impact" player draft picks. Build the line later in the draft ... Rounds 3 and on and through free agency. Paying an O-linemen Top 10 money is not the way to go IMO.

Get impact players at #4 and #29. You want to argue QB? That I can understand. If you think Leinart is the next Joe Montana, I'd say go for it. But you better be sure at #4 money. On the other hand, paying an offensive linemen "top draft pick money" is a waste when you can get quality players at those positions through other means.

My two cents.

[JoeWillie]

yo willie, the bears had an easy schedule last year. I think mangini will address both sides of the ball this draft but the way our qb's got killed last year, we need an ol overhaul. i'm surprised jolley is still with us. we need meat on the bones of our tight ends as well

JW - True, they did have an easy schedule, but their defense was still dominant, especially early on against some good teams. Agree our "OLine" needs help (see above). Just don't want to do it with #4 or 29. Maybe 32.

Not a big fan of Jolley either, but I'm willing to give him and Baker another year given our other needs.

What do you think of Leinart? Would you take him at #4?

[L.I.MikeBleedsGreen]

Well our #4 won't be a o-line man ,b/c the siants are going to grab D'brick ,so now our #4 pick money should be on Mario IMO or Young.Or we have 2 options trade up for bush or trade down for more picks

[JoeWillie]

Well our #4 won't be a o-line man ,b/c the siants are going to grab D'brick ,so now our #4 pick money should be on Mario IMO or Young.Or we have 2 options trade up for bush or trade down for more picks

LIMike - How 'bout you? Would you take Leinart if he was there at #4?

[bman]

Rams, Pats, Steelers, Seahawks, Titans, Eagles,

all had offenses that could move the ball!

The JETS 04 are the perfect example of what happens to a team that cant move the ball in the playoffs...

Sure, Raven 2000, bears 86, The bucs...YOu are talking about 3 of the best defenses in NFL history!!

Jets Offense is Putrid..

they will improve it on Day 1 of the draft I;m sure

[JoeWillie]

Rams, Pats, Steelers, Seahawks, Titans, Eagles,

all had offenses that could move the ball!

The JETS 04 are the perfect example of what happens to a team that cant move the ball in the playoffs...

Sure, Raven 2000, bears 86, The bucs...YOu are talking about 3 of the best defenses in NFL history!!

Jets Offense is Putrid..

they will improve it on Day 1 of the draft I;m sure

As I stated in the original post, more importantly, all had great defenses the years they won.

Forget the Ravens, Bears, and Bucs for a second.

Pats were not even in the top 5 offenses statistically 2 out of the 3 years they won. But they were defensively.

Eagles were also #2 in defense the year they went to the SB.

Steelers were 9th in offense, but #3 in defense this past season. Who'd they beat? The #1 offense in Seattle.

How'd the Raiders do the year they were #2 in offense? Lost to the #1 defense Bucs.

How 'bout St. Louis in 2001, when they were #1 offensively? They got beat by the # 6 defensive team New England.

OK, the year the Rams beat Tennessee, they also happen to be #4 defensively in the league.

I'll stop now.

[serphnx]

As I stated in the original post, more importantly, all had great defenses the years they won.

Forget the Ravens, Bears, and Bucs for a second.

Pats were not even in the top 5 offenses statistically 2 out of the 3 years they won. But they were defensively.

Eagles were also #2 in defense the year they went to the SB.

Steelers were 9th in offense, but #3 in defense this past season. Who'd they beat? The #1 offense in Seattle.

How'd the Raiders do the year they were #2 in offense? Lost to the #1 defense Bucs.

How 'bout St. Louis in 2001, when they were #1 offensively? They got beat by the # 6 defensive team New England.

OK, the year the Rams beat Tennessee, they also happen to be #4 defensively in the league.

I'll stop now.

No offense you listed is ranked below #18 is it? The average Offense ranking, if you were to do the math, is probably around 10, and the average defense ranking around #6. Those numbers are both very high overall. Nobody is going to win anything with the #30 ranked offense OR defense.

The Bears played in the NFC North, and had a creampuff schedule. With a good defense this year, we still wouldn't make 11-5, because we play actual decent teams in our division. And even if we made it in, we'd get exposed and destroyed quickly, probably in the wild card round because we sure as heck aren't getting a bye in the AFC without any offense.

I've said this a few times before, but most people forget or don't understand it. When your offense blows, the other team actually winds up having a defense just as good as yours, because they continuously stop your offense. So while your defense is going out and stopping them, they're doing the same thing to you, the only difference is that they might eventually put something together or get lucky on offense, whereas you'll never get anything done on offense because you're so incompetent on that side of the ball.

Our offense right now is in an extremely pathetic state. Just look at last year for an example. Our supposed super bowl caliber defense couldn't get us wins. Even when we scored points on defense, we'd still lose. Remember that beatdown the Pats gave us? You really think you're going to win games with that performance on offense?

[Xcel2NuFX]

I'm going to agree with you that you need a very good Defense to win a championship.

But I can't help noticing that almost all of these teams also had a top 10 offense.... There are teams that year in and year out have a top 5 defense and can't even make it to the playoffs. The ravens, the Bucs, the Bears, the Redskins, the Jaguars, the Dolphins....

I mean these teams always have very good defenses but rarely find themselves making it past the 1st round of the playoffs!

And now we ask ourselves why? Because they all are inept on offense. The Bears last year made a good run with the Best Defense in the NFL, but fell short because of their inadequate offense. The Panthers also made a good run at the Superbowl but were one demensional on offense all year and it showed in the championship game. It was the Thomas Jones and Steve Smith show for these two teams and you need to have a multi-demensional offense to make it to the SB.

Putting together a balanced team is more complicated but it's the way to sustain a competitive team in the long run. New England has had a great defense but they always have had offense that has been able to put points on the board when the game plan calls for it.

[JoeWillie]

No offense you listed is ranked below #18 is it? The average Offense ranking, if you were to do the math, is probably around 10, and the average defense ranking around #6. Those numbers are both very high overall. Nobody is going to win anything with the #30 ranked offense OR defense.

The Bears played in the NFC North, and had a creampuff schedule. With a good defense this year, we still wouldn't make 11-5, because we play actual decent teams in our division. And even if we made it in, we'd get exposed and destroyed quickly, probably in the wild card round because we sure as heck aren't getting a bye in the AFC without any offense.

I've said this a few times before, but most people forget or don't understand it. When your offense blows, the other team actually winds up having a defense just as good as yours, because they continuously stop your offense. So while your defense is going out and stopping them, they're doing the same thing to you, the only difference is that they might eventually put something together or get lucky on offense, whereas you'll never get anything done on offense because you're so incompetent on that side of the ball.

Our offense right now is in an extremely pathetic state. Just look at last year for an example. Our supposed super bowl caliber defense couldn't get us wins. Even when we scored points on defense, we'd still lose. Remember that beatdown the Pats gave us? You really think you're going to win games with that performance on offense?

Average ranking for Super Bowl team defense is about 4.5, average "O" is about 9.

Avg defensive ranking for the teams that won are about 2.3.

Also, 3 of the teams that lost were either 1st or second in offense.

All that said, I never said you can win without an offense. You have twisted my stress on defense into "you don't need offense". Not true.

What I've said, is two things:

1) A great defense will beat a great offense almost every time. It's been proven throughout history.

2) You can build a winning team faster by focusing on the defense. Now listen, that doesn't mean you ignore the offense. But if your defense is Top 5, you can win with a "Top 20" offense, no doubt.

In each of the last 6 Super Bowls, even the #1 ranked offense in the league has never won. In fact, the league's #1 offense has only won the Super Bowl three times in the last 15 years, and in all 3 of those instances (GB #1 in '96, Denver #5 in '97, and St. Louis #4 in '99), those teams were also in the league's Top 5 defenses.

[JoeWillie]

I'm going to agree with you that you need a very good Defense to win a championship.

But I can't help noticing that almost all of these teams also had a top 10 offense.... There are teams that year in and year out have a top 5 defense and can't even make it to the playoffs. The ravens, the Bucs, the Bears, the Redskins, the Jaguars, the Dolphins....

I mean these teams always have very good defenses but rarely find themselves making it past the 1st round of the playoffs!

And now we ask ourselves why? Because they all are inept on offense. The Bears last year made a good run with the Best Defense in the NFL, but fell short because of their inadequate offense. The Panthers also made a good run at the Superbowl but were one demensional on offense all year and it showed in the championship game. It was the Thomas Jones and Steve Smith show for these two teams and you need to have a multi-demensional offense to make it to the SB.

Putting together a balanced team is more complicated but it's the way to sustain a competitive team in the long run. New England has had a great defense but they always have had offense that has been able to put points on the board when the game plan calls for it.

You make good points. You absolutely need some balance to win consistently. But I'd rather start with defense. It's easier to build a good "D" then a good "O". Offense is much more complicated and has more external factors.

But let's define good defenses. I'm talking Top 5 in the league. Top 5 defensive teams in the league are consistently competitive in the league.

You can win a championship with say, a Top 5 Defense and a Top 20 offense, but not the other way around, IMO.

Good chatter, though.

Cheers!

[BwanaZulia]

Who could argue this fact after last year.

The Steelers beat up on what were considered very good offenses.

Pats

Broncos

Colts

Seahawks

The Tangini knows this and will build us a strong D.

BZ

[serphnx]

That's the thing entirely though, we do NOT have a top 20 offense. We're one of the worst offenses in the league. It's going to take significant improvements to make it to a top 20 offense, and offenses are extremely difficult to build. A lot of defense is gameplanning, and matchups. Those Patriot defenses weren't really THAT great so much as having incredible gameplans. We can get the gameplanning to become a top defense, as long as our offense can keep the defense off the field.

[Phinsuck]

A great offense is fun and exciting. A Great Defense wins trophys.

Check out the last 6 Super Bowl Teams and their offensive and defensive league rankings for that year. Winners on top.

2005 - Pittsburgh (#3 Def, #9 Off)

Seattle (#7 Def, #1 Off)

2004 - New England (#2 Def, #4 Off)

Philadelphia (#2 Def, #8 Off)

2003 - New England (#1 Def, #12 Off)

Carolina (#10 Def, #15 Off)

2002 - Tampa Bay (#1 Def, #18 Off)

Oakland (#11 Def, # 2 Off)

2001 - New England (# 6 Def, #6 Off)

St. Louis (#7 Def, #1 Off)

2000 - Baltimore (#1 Def, #14 Off)

Giants (#5 Def, #15 Off)

Anybody see a pattern?

A good defense beats the good offense most of the time.

Dear Tangini - Please rebuild the defense first. That will make us more competitive faster. If you have one, you only need a decent offense to win consistently. See '05 Chicago Bears as an example of a team that turned things around quickly by building the defense.

Yeah Defense wins championships but you still are supposed to outscore the other team. Our defense really only needs a quality NT right now, our offense needs everything.

[The Troll]

The Bears were ranked 29th in total offense and made the playoffs with an 11-5 record.

Not denying our offense sucked last year (we were worse than Chicago), but I think much of that had to do with injuries and inexperience at key positions, specifically the guy taking the snaps.

We definitely need to rebuild the "O-line", but I'd rather do that in later rounds and through Free Agency, as it's much cheaper that way. Blowing 1st and 2nd round money on an offensive linemen is not something I'm not a big fan of, even if it's D'Brick.

And, what did that get the Bears last year? A quick playoff exit is what it got them.

Defense wins championsips, but show me the last time a team that had ZERO playmakers on offense won the championship. It has NEVER happened. Even the Ravens had Jamal Lewis and Jon Ogden.

[Xcel2NuFX]

You make good points. You absolutely need some balance to win consistently. But I'd rather start with defense. It's easier to build a good "D" then a good "O". Offense is much more complicated and has more external factors.

But let's define good defenses. I'm talking Top 5 in the league. Top 5 defensive teams in the league are consistently competitive in the league.

You can win a championship with say, a Top 5 Defense and a Top 20 offense, but not the other way around, IMO.

Good chatter, though.

Cheers!

I agree the fastest way you can turn a team around is by improving the defense. The thing that you said that I absolutely agree with is that it's easier to build a good D than a good O.

With that said I think it takes offensive players more time to adjust to the Pro level given the complex nature of the new offenses in the league. I think keeping this in mind that in order to achieve the balance we need that we have more pressing needs on offense particularly the line and QB that need to be adressed before lets say Safety or Linebacker.

I think you can improve a defense more easily in one offseason than an offense because the offense needs time to gel and become familiar with one another.

With all this in mind I think this year we should tackle some of the problems we have on offense given the abundance of good talent at Offensive line and Running back. I think we can hide the fact we have a weak link in the secondary the way NE has done it in the past but we can't hide the fact we don't have any play makers or solid offensive linemen.

I also don't think our defense is as bad as some people around here think. Laws gone and I say soo long to him. JA is not replacable as much as we may hate the guy he is a big lose. I think we need to find a NT in the 3rd round who is a big physical guy and someone who can get a pass rush from OLB.

We can survive this year with our defense but we will be in extremely bad shape if we were to enter the season with the current offense we have.

[JoeWillie]

Phin - We need more than just a nose tackle on defense. How 'bout a pass rushing OLB? Some help in the defensive backfield?

Troll - So let's here once and for all how you build a champion starting with this season. Who do you want with #4, #29, and #32. What player in this draft at those spots is the great offensive playmaker you covet?

[JoeWillie]

And, what did that get the Bears last year? A quick playoff exit is what it got them.

Defense wins championsips, but show me the last time a team that had ZERO playmakers on offense won the championship. It has NEVER happened. Even the Ravens had Jamal Lewis and Jon Ogden.

Jamal Lewis? OK, l guess your standards of an offensive playmaker are a little different than mine. But let's not forget the defense and special teams that got them 2 touchdowns in the Super Bowl that year.

And who was Tampa's offensive playmaker when they won the Super Bowl in 2003? Mike Alstott? I'll tell you who it was. It was the defense. They scored 3 TD's in that game.

How many playmakers did the Buffalo Bills have on offense? Lots. How many SB's did they win?

Marino's Fish, Fouts Chargers?

And don't tell me about the Steelers of the 70's, Montana's 49ers, the Cowboys of the early 90's, or the Pat's of the 2000's. They all had great offensive weapons, but every one of those dynastys was built with a "DEFENSE FIRST" mentality.

[The Troll]

Phin - We need more than just a nose tackle on defense. How 'bout a pass rushing OLB? Some help in the defensive backfield?

Troll - So let's here once and for all how you build a champion starting with this season. Who do you want with #4, #29, and #32. What player in this draft at those spots is the great offensive playmaker you covet?

At #4, I want D'Brickashaw Ferguson. At 29 and 34, I want the BAP at a position of need, and I really don't care what that position is.

You are not going to build a champion in one draft, anyway. And you definitely don't build one by completely ignoring your needs when you need about 10 new future starters. How do you think the Jets got in this mess in the first place? Think it might have something to do with the Edwards/Bradway era's stockpiling of 1st day defensive pick after 1st day defensive pick? In the past three drafts, the Jets have had 8 first day picks. SIX have went to defensive players. Last season, the Jets offense ranked 31st in the NFL. So, how do we fix that? DRAFT MORE ****ING DEFENSE, THAT'S HOW!

[JoeWillie]

At #4, I want D'Brickashaw Ferguson. At 29 and 34, I want the BAP at a position of need, and I really don't care what that position is.

You are not going to build a champion in one draft, anyway. And you definitely don't build one by completely ignoring your needs when you need about 10 new future starters. How do you think the Jets got in this mess in the first place? Think it might have something to do with the Edwards/Bradway era's stockpiling of 1st day defensive pick after 1st day defensive pick? In the past three drafts, the Jets have had 8 first day picks. SIX have went to defensive players. Last season, the Jets offense ranked 31st in the NFL. So, how do we fix that? DRAFT MORE ****ING DEFENSE, THAT'S HOW!

I think you're confusing "misguidedness" with "incompetency".

I think we all agree that Herm/Bradway sucked when it came to drafting personnel. However, I think we'd be saying the same thing had they drafted offense.

I will say that I think paying an OT "#4 money" is insane. You can get "O-linemen" cheaper in the later rounds and through free agency. Save the big contracts for the playmakers, whether it's offense or defense.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[The Troll]

I think you're confusing "misguidedness" with "incompetency".

I think we all agree that Herm/Bradway sucked when it came to drafting personnel. However, I think we'd be saying the same thing had they drafted offense.

I will say that I think paying an OT "#4 money" is insane. You can get "O-linemen" cheaper in the later rounds and through free agency. Save the big contracts for the playmakers, whether it's offense or defense.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, and Jon Ogden have been to a combined 4 Super Bowls and their teams were legitimate contenders for many years. I'll take my chances on handing the money to a blue chip LT because the draft is the only place you are ever going to find one. Dominant LT's never hit the free agent marker.

[JoeWillie]

Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, and Jon Ogden have been to a combined 4 Super Bowls and their teams were legitimate contenders for many years. I'll take my chances on handing the money to a blue chip LT because the draft is the only place you are ever going to find one. Dominant LT's never hit the free agent marker.

What does that prove? I can say the same thing about any three players at any other position on the field.

I'm not going to do it, but I'm sure if you went back and looked at every Super Bowl team and examine who their starting left tackle was, I guarantee you there are many more than those three you named who were obtained by those teams lower than the 1st round or through Free Agency.

[The Troll]

What does that prove? I can say the same thing about any three players at any other position on the field.

I'm not going to do it, but I'm sure if you went back and looked at every Super Bowl team and examine who their starting left tackle was, I guarantee you there are many more than those three you named who were obtained by those teams lower than the 1st round or through Free Agency.

There is a big difference in a quality starter at left tackle and a guy that can put the entire offense on his back and make a mediocre offense average, an average offense good, and a good offense great.

Are you saying (I assume, since you want AJ Hawk) that you can't get a great OLB in free agency? I do believe the Rams (Will Witherspoon), Redskins (Marcus Washington), and Bills (Takeo Spikes) would disagree.

[JoeWillie]

There is a big difference in a quality starter at left tackle and a guy that can put the entire offense on his back and make a mediocre offense average, an average offense good, and a good offense great.

Are you saying (I assume, since you want AJ Hawk) that you can't get a great OLB in free agency? I do believe the Rams (Will Witherspoon), Redskins (Marcus Washington), and Bills (Takeo Spikes) would disagree.

Let me make sure I heard you correctly ... An "Offensive Tackle" that can put the entire offense on his back?

Sorry ... you lost me with that quote.

There is no such player and never has been. Even Munoz never put an offense on his back. Linemen are spokes on the wheel. Albeit, LT is the key position on the line, especially in the passing game, but that's as far as I'll go.