joewilly Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 our offensive formations & motions are mind boggling on some plays. It's been said many times we do this & gadget plays to offset the lack of playmakers & talented guys. why don't we see any of this on the other side of the ball. we seem pretty vanilla, especially in the 4th quarter and our prevent defense. what have we prevented other than 2 possible victories vs pats & colts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 our offensive formations & motions are mind boggling on some plays. It's been said many times we do this & gadget plays to offset the lack of playmakers & talented guys. why don't we see any of this on the other side of the ball. we seem pretty vanilla, especially in the 4th quarter and our prevent defense. what have we prevented other than 2 possible victories vs pats & colts? The first thing that comes to my mind is that Mangini is no Belichick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 The first thing that comes to my mind is that Mangini is no Belichick. why thank you patsfanalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoping4ASuperBowl Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I always thought our D was pretty good against Indy there, cept for Miller. But going into that game made me think of playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out when you reached Mike Tyson. You thought to yourself omg i made it this far and your pumped and it all seems good and well until he lands that punch right in your face that knocks you to the floor. I felt like Indy was just sitting around playing like they didnt care until Miller returned for that td and Payton came in and basically just punched us all in the face. And then spiked the ball in the end to rub it in our faces. I think i went off a bit sorry. Creative D? I hate watching all these game where we have the lead in the 4th quater and im just hoping the other team just makes that one bad play to end the game. We had no pressure on Harrington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 why thank you patsfanalk LMAO, just calling it the way I saw it while he was here in New England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 LMAO, just calling it the way I saw it while he was here in New England. seriously , you don't think mangini is a capable defensive mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Guys, watch the 4th Q of the last game again. You'll see that the only difference was not the playcalling, but the secondary completely wiffing on tackles left and right. We were not in a prevent D, we were just f*cking up with missed tackles and mental errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 seriously , you don't think mangini is a capable defensive mind? I saw what he did as DC for us last season and lets just say I was one of the people that wasn't sad to see him go. There's a reason why Belichick took away the reigns about half way through last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I saw what he did as DC for us last season and lets just say I was one of the people that wasn't sad to see him go. There's a reason why Belichick took away the reigns about half way through last season. thats cause he is a control freak,,aka Parcells,, do you remember Parcells taking away reins from Belly a few times while with Giants??? I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 thats cause he is a control freak,,aka Parcells,, do you remember Parcells taking away reins from Belly a few times while with Giants??? I do. No, it's because our defense sucked ass last season. Sure, we had injuries, but it's no coincidence that the defense got better once Belichick took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 No, it's because our defense sucked ass last season. Sure, we had injuries, but it's no coincidence that the defense got better once Belichick took over. nah,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 seriously , you don't think mangini is a capable defensive mind? Mangini is fine. Look at the talent, or lack thereof, he has to work with on the defensive side of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Mangini is fine. Look at the talent, or lack thereof, he has to work with on the defensive side of the ball. thank u,, rome wasnt built ,,well u know,, give him time to get the groceries,, then crap on him if warranted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 No, it's because our defense sucked ass last season. Sure, we had injuries, but it's no coincidence that the defense got better once Belichick took over. Kinda helped getting Seymour and Bruschi back as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Mangini is fine. Look at the talent, or lack thereof, he has to work with on the defensive side of the ball. Agreed- the talent on defense is what is lacking not the coaching- when you physically can not match up gimmicks are not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 i tend to agree with Alk the defensive play calling and variety has been awful don't sugar coat it Jets fans they don't need 11 new players the talent isn't perfect but it's better than what we've been seeing - they physically can match up with any team. they need new formations and some interesting twists to the play calling that base 3-4 gets gashed week after week but they rarely make adjustments (unless down by 31 points or some other hopeless situation) the strength of Belly's 3-4 is that ya never know what front they are gonna show in, could be 5-2 could be 4-3 could be 1 down lineman and 7 defensive backs that doesn't happen with Mangini/Sutton they stick to the base 3-4 like it's an addiction hey fellas word to the wise this is the NFL the base defense should be an exception not an every down occurance these guys that people want to trade such as Vilma and DRob who "don't fit" in the system are in fact pretty good players - they just aren't being used right i will make one concession to the talent arguement - Kimo and Brad Kassell suck nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 i tend to agree with Alk the defensive play calling and variety has been awful don't sugar coat it Jets fans they don't need 11 new players the talent isn't perfect but it's better than what we've been seeing - they physically can match up with any team. they need new formations and some interesting twists to the play calling that base 3-4 gets gashed week after week but they rarely make adjustments (unless down by 31 points or some other hopeless situation) the strength of Belly's 3-4 is that ya never know what front they are gonna show in, could be 5-2 could be 4-3 could be 1 down lineman and 7 defensive backs that doesn't happen with Mangini/Sutton they stick to the base 3-4 like it's an addiction hey fellas word to the wise this is the NFL the base defense should be an exception not an every down occurance these guys that people want to trade such as Vilma and DRob who "don't fit" in the system are in fact pretty good players - they just aren't being used right i will make one concession to the talent arguement - Kimo and Brad Kassell suck nuts. u are over analyzing,, he jsut doesnt have th eplayers to do what he wants yet and isnt showing his hand until he thinks he has a playoff team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Out of our 11 starter on defense who are the real deal if you were starting a team from scratch Vilma, Rhodes maybe Dyson- talent is lacking -face it- coaches may take some blame but look at the players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 u are over analyzing,, he jsut doesnt have th eplayers to do what he wants yet and isnt showing his hand until he thinks he has a playoff team apparently Mangini has been telling the players they have as much talent as the patriots super bowl teams so i'm not sure that dog is gonna hunt as for shopping for groceries i got more bad news, i've scoured the rosters of almost every college team in the nation and the next Jamal Williams or Ted Washington simply aren't there. The best they can hope for is the next Vince Wilfork and even next year that's a tall order. The latest DT crop is pretty poor overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 that base 3-4 gets gashed week after week but they rarely make adjustments (unless down by 31 points or some other hopeless situation) the strength of Belly's 3-4 is that ya never know what front they are gonna show in, could be 5-2 could be 4-3 could be 1 down lineman and 7 defensive backs Come on bit, the reason why the Jets 3-4 is getting "gashed" every week is because the front 3 have absolutely sucked. They are getting blown of the LOS and not keeping the OLinemen off the LB's. There is no way the 3-4 is going to work if the front 3 can't do their job effectively. And don't you think before Mangini shows all kinds of different looks, he might just want to improve the 3-4 first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Out of our 11 starter on defense who are the real deal if you were starting a team from scratch Vilma, Rhodes maybe Dyson- talent is lacking -face it- coaches may take some blame but look at the players even if what you say is true and vilma is the only defender in the front seven who is "talented" why is he playing like garbage? besides the ones you mention Ellis, Thomas, Barton, Drob, Hobson, Miller, & the Colemans are all starting quality players im not going to say the scheme is bad - yet - but i will say these guys are too vanilla with their playcalls, especially playing with a lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 besides the ones you mention Ellis, Thomas, Barton, Drob, Hobson, Miller, & the Colemans are all starting quality players Miller is a "quality starting" CB? What games have you been watching this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Miller is a "quality starting" CB? What games have you been watching this year? he's 22 and fast enough to gamble and recover that's pretty much starting quality in this league im not saying he's great or amazing all i said was if he was on another team (for example the Patriots) he'd be a starter, even if it's only in a nickel capacity most teams play multiple corners and the nickel back has become a starting position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 he's 22 and fast enough to gamble and recover that's pretty much starting quality in this league im not saying he's great or amazing all i said was if he was on another team (for example the Patriots) he'd be a starter, even if it's only in a nickel capacity most teams play multiple corners and the nickel back has become a starting position I agree with you that he is young and will more than likely improve. He has all the necessary skills but he has looked lost out there a few times this season. I'm surprised more opposing OC's don't take more deep shots against him, especially when he is in 1 on 1 coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 even if what you say is true and vilma is the only defender in the front seven who is "talented" why is he playing like garbage? besides the ones you mention Ellis, Thomas, Barton, Drob, Hobson, Miller, & the Colemans are all starting quality players im not going to say the scheme is bad - yet - but i will say these guys are too vanilla with their playcalls, especially playing with a lead Thomas and Hobson are debatable as starters on other teams. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Drew Coleman is starting quality, he's been torched all year. As has Miller for that regard. The problem lies in the fact that all of our quality guys in the front 7 are dependat on one simple fact-they all need a fat guy in the middle to take on blockers. The solution is real simple in theory, difficult in reality. If they can find a guy to replace DRob at NG and play effectively, then most of the problems are solved. Plain and simple. Vilma will have more freedom to roam, and run plays will be forced to the outside where Ellis, Thomas, and Hobson can be effective at stopping it. DRob has absolutely no part on this team. He is horrible, HORRIBLE, against the run whether we play the 3-4, 4-3, 2-6, 6-2, 46, 11-0. 75% of our defensive issues stem directly from him. On top of that, if we had a legitimate pass rusher to replace Thomas then we would be a formidable D. Our secondary would not have to cover guys for as long as they do, and we would be able to pressure QB's into making mistakes. The answer at NG is not going to come in the draft. We need to look for FA's to fill that role. IMO our priority in the draft needs to stay focused on a pass rushing OLB and a RB. If we csan fill these 3 positions next year we will be a force to be reckoned with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 I agree with you that he is young and will more than likely improve. He has all the necessary skills but he has looked lost out there a few times this season. I'm surprised more opposing OC's don't take more deep shots against him, especially when he is in 1 on 1 coverage. he's the goods but due to his inconsistency back there it's dangerous when he's left alone. he has shown flashes of brilliance in one on one coverage, just can't seem to string to good plays together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 If they can find a guy to replace DRob at NG and play effectively, then most of the problems are solved. Plain and simple. Hey that's great. Check out the pending free agent lists when you get a chance there's no "real" nose tackles out there. Even if they find this magic player on the FA market they should keep Drob, restructure him and put him at 3-4 DE. He's not living up to draft hype but he's not without value. Kimo has been playing like trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 DRob has absolutely no part on this team. He is horrible, HORRIBLE, against the run whether we play the 3-4, 4-3, 2-6, 6-2, 46, 11-0. 75% of our defensive issues stem directly from him. this is a crazy statement. 75% of the defensive woes is alot. One would think if he was that bad they would have swept him out with the rest of the trash last spring - or at least not be starting. If he's as bad as you say he is, it's an indictment of the coaching staff that he sees the field every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Hey that's great. Check out the pending free agent lists when you get a chance there's no "real" nose tackles out there. Can you point me to it? I don't know where I would find that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 someone on the "other" message board started a thread, i have to dig it up but don't have search capabilities the point is i've seen the list it's bleak trust me a true 3-4 NT is probably the hardest position to fill in the 3-4 scheme it might be years before we find "that guy" we can hope that the guy is Tui but i stand by my statement even with a legit 3-4 NT if they never change the fronts the offense can find the holes. They are too predictable (and conservative) with the play calling that's probably the biggest defensive problem IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 this is a crazy statement. 75% of the defensive woes is alot. One would think if he was that bad they would have swept him out with the rest of the trash last spring - or at least not be starting. If he's as bad as you say he is, it's an indictment of the coaching staff that he sees the field every week. He wouldn't be starting if it weren't for all the injuries!!! How can you possibly indict the coaching staff for starting him now when the 2 likely guys who were ahead of him went down with season ending injuries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phinsuck Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 apparently Mangini has been telling the players they have as much talent as the patriots super bowl teams so i'm not sure that dog is gonna hunt as for shopping for groceries i got more bad news, i've scoured the rosters of almost every college team in the nation and the next Jamal Williams or Ted Washington simply aren't there. The best they can hope for is the next Vince Wilfork and even next year that's a tall order. The latest DT crop is pretty poor overall. You're right. After Alan Branch I don't see any college players who would make effective Nose Tackles in the NFL. Quinn Pit**** is a one-gap DT in the NFL. He could play Defensive End in a 3-4 scheme but forget about him being a Nose. The guy isn't even above the 300 lb mark. If we go 7-9 or 8-8 this year we probably won't be able to pick Branch in the draft plus he may decide to stay in college another year especially if Michigan doesn't win a national title. Bottom line, Jets need to go back to a 4-3. Unless you want to continue seeing Dewayne Robertson and James Reed types playing Nose Tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 more bad news i've heard people say that Branch due to his height (6'5" 330) wouldn't be an effective 3-4 NT, but rather projects to 4-3 DT or 3-4 DE. Apparently the same concerns were there about Ngata (too tall for NT) which is why he was never seriously considered for the Jets. that's why Ted Washington is such a freak he's 6'5" but listed 365 (probably plays more like 400) he's like a supersized NT - still very wide not lanky - gets leverage and clog up the lanes Wilfork is 6'2" Jamal Williams is listed 6'3" more like 6'2" IRL and listed 348 the ideal NT proportions are 6'0 - 6'3" 330+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 He wouldn't be starting if it weren't for all the injuries!!! How can you possibly indict the coaching staff for starting him now when the 2 likely guys who were ahead of him went down with season ending injuries? would you agree Drob's better than Kimo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 You're right. After Alan Branch I don't see any college players who would make effective Nose Tackles in the NFL. Quinn Pit**** is a one-gap DT in the NFL. He could play Defensive End in a 3-4 scheme but forget about him being a Nose. The guy isn't even above the 300 lb mark. If we go 7-9 or 8-8 this year we probably won't be able to pick Branch in the draft plus he may decide to stay in college another year especially if Michigan doesn't win a national title. Bottom line, Jets need to go back to a 4-3. Unless you want to continue seeing Dewayne Robertson and James Reed types playing Nose Tackle. If we go bacjk to a 4-3 we are looking at the same problems amplified. DRob needs a widebody next to him regardless. Unless you can find a DT that will take the Center's attention away from DRob, he's useless in a 4-3 as well. If DRob has to take on more than one blocker he is useless. Unless TUI or Pouha fit that bill, there is nobody on our roster to handle that role. Do you want to go into the season banking on Tui or Pouha? Secondly, if we switch back to a 4-3 we have to find a legitimate DE fast as well. One who can actually get to the QB. Thomas has never been able to do that. So essentially what happens to this team in a 4-3? DRob faces double teams that he can't handle, we have another DT that is barely good enough to man up 1 on, Vilma takes on blockers who just bowled through our middle, has no help from an extra LB, and we get gashed for 6+ up the middle everytime. Furthermore, since we at least don't have the element of disguise ythat a 3-4 gives us, we now have absolutely no pass rush. This allows QB's to have all day to throw on us and we start calling for Mangini's head because the D looks alot like Herm's. I'm sure there are players out there that will fill the NG role just fine, and I'm sure Mangini will find one. I'm not trying to be offensive bitonti, but I just can't take your opinion of otherwise on faith. You're the same guy who still calls DRob the bowling ball with a bitcher knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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