D'Brickashaw Ferguson vs. Joe Thomas

[D-MONEY87]

They are both the best OT from last year and this year. Based on D'Brick's rookie year and next year as Joe Thomas's rookie year, who do you think will have the better rooki season between the two and who do you think will be more successful in the nfl in their career?

[Pragmatic Bus]

Dbrick already has gone up against the premiere DE

s of NFL and came out strong. JOE will go against lack luster NFC west DE there is no comparison

[DaBrick Wall]

I think he might go through much of the same as what D'Brick did, though chad made a good point. Thomas is about the same weight as D'Brick was when he entered the NFL, and I expect that Thomas will also lose weight over the course of the season and struggle in the last third or quarter of the season, as Brick started to do. But I thought that Brick did a commendable job this season while facing some of the top DEs in the business: Seymour twice, Shoebel twice, Taylor twice, Freeney, Anderson...

[KSJets]

I think he might go through much of the same as what D'Brick did, though chad made a good point. Thomas is about the same weight as D'Brick was when he entered the NFL, and I expect that Thomas will also lose weight over the course of the season and struggle in the last third or quarter of the season, as Brick started to do. But I thought that Brick did a commendable job this season while facing some of the top DEs in the business: Seymour twice, Shoebel twice, Taylor twice, Freeney, Anderson...

This gets lost on so many people that I'm glad you brought it up

[Pragmatic Bus]

not only that he played in the postseason against seymour again. joe thomas will be lucky if the team he goes to even contends next year

[PeterNorth09]

They are both the best OT from last year and this year. Based on D'Brick's rookie year and next year as Joe Thomas's rookie year, who do you think will have the better rooki season between the two and who do you think will be more successful in the nfl in their career?

Brick is going to develop into an excellent pass protector but he will always be a mediocre run blocker. He's undersized and his game is finesse-based. Thomas looks like he may be a more complete player and either Tampa or Arizona should take him in the draft.

Marcus McNeill is better than both of them though. Last year's draft class of offensive tackles was one of the best in a long time.

[124]

Brick's worst year is behind him where as Joe Thomas is coming out and who knows about him still because he has yet to play in an NFL game. Does he have the size and strength and speed to be great? Of course! But so did Robert Gallery. Time will tell.

[faba]

Ferguson played probably the toughest position as a rookie to play- people seem to want him to totally dominate his first year- deal in reality.

[bitonti]

let me first off say i am glad the Jets don't have to look for a LT, these are incredibly difficult players to find.

if we consider Brick was a top 5 guy and Thomas a likely top 3 guy then apparently Thomas is better. If we consider that Brick was a 5.0 40 guy and Thomas a likely 4.9 guy than apparently Thomas is a little faster, hence better. Thomas is known as a crusher in the run game and Brick has been criticized for this aspect of his game. Thomas actually played defensive tackle for WIS, Brick probably couldn't do that as well. Thomas was a well known prep and has been on the radar for a while, Brick sorta "came out of nowhere" to become a high profile player. Thomas is a little taller and a little bigger (dancing bear).

Still all is not lost for Jets fans. Brick didn't tear his ACL as Thomas did. Brick has a larger wingspan than Thomas. Brick is probably a better technician in the pass protection game than Thomas. More good news for Jets fans, brick has already proven he can play at this level, Thomas it is _assumed_ he can play but until he has actually proven it, who can say for sure? Brick has a black belt in karate - probably better overall balance and body control.

Both are excellent left tackle prospects. Neither are perfect prospects, and Im not sure that either really measure up to the gold standards of pace and ogden as Prospects.

ask me to choose between them, i probably pick Brick because he is a known quantity and local - but i am admittedly biased.

[bitonti]

here's a non answer from mayock

Q. Joe Thomas, how does he compare to Ferguson from last year, your take on him overall as a prospect?

MIKE MAYOCK: I think he's one of the four or five elite players in this draft at the top end of it. Compared to D'Brickashaw Ferguson, they're similar in that they're both somewhat finesse players with great feet and long arms. I think Thomas is physically stronger and tougher than Ferguson. Ferguson still has to get stronger to play at a higher level in the NFL. Thomas is stronger than that, but he's got great feet, he's got a good work ethic. He's only a four-year player at Wisconsin, who I believe played one spring bowl. He's a guy that's got an awful lot of upside. I don't think he's going to get passed two or three in the draft.

[baamf]

Ferguson played probably the toughest position as a rookie to play- people seem to want him to totally dominate his first year- deal in reality.

I didn't expect the 4th overall pick to give up 10 sacks and be poor in run blocking his first year. If that is fine in your reality so be it, but I was expecting a year more like Marcus McNeill. I thought Brick struggled mightily this year, and if he doesn't improve greatly this coming year we will be shortly shopping for another LT. The good thing is he seems to be coachable and recognizes his weaknesses, so hopefully a full offseason conditioning program and additional studies will help him tremendously....

[bitonti]

If that is fine in your reality so be it, but I was expecting a year more like Marcus McNeill.

both made the all rookie team

let's not go crazy here

[baamf]

both made the all rookie team

let's not go crazy here

By default. There were no other starting LTs from the draft that I know of, and off the top of my head Trueblood is the only other rookie tackle who started most of the games (and he arguably had a better season than Brick albeit on the right side). McNeill gave up half the number of sacks as Brick did this year and was dominant in the run game. Face it, Brick has a long way to go. I, for one, believe he can get there but it is by no means a given...

[bitonti]

By default. There were no other starting LTs from the draft that I know of, and off the top of my head Trueblood is the only other rookie tackle who started most of the games (and he arguably had a better season than Brick albeit on the right side). McNeill gave up half the number of sacks as Brick did this year and was dominant in the run game. Face it, Brick has a long way to go. I, for one, believe he can get there but it is by no means a given...

McNeil had to pass block 2x less than Brick - SD was scared to let Rivers throw until week 10 and the Jets had no running game to speak of... to compare the two and say one sucks the other is awesome is misinformed.

this is really about as nice as I can put it without getting insulting, you are grossly misinformed my friend.

[johnny green balls]

let me first off say i am glad the Jets don't have to look for a LT, these are incredibly difficult players to find.

if we consider Brick was a top 5 guy and Thomas a likely top 3 guy then apparently Thomas is better. If we consider that Brick was a 5.0 40 guy and Thomas a likely 4.9 guy than apparently Thomas is a little faster, hence better. Thomas is known as a crusher in the run game and Brick has been criticized for this aspect of his game. Thomas actually played defensive tackle for WIS, Brick probably couldn't do that as well. Thomas was a well known prep and has been on the radar for a while, Brick sorta "came out of nowhere" to become a high profile player. Thomas is a little taller and a little bigger (dancing bear).

Still all is not lost for Jets fans. Brick didn't tear his ACL as Thomas did. Brick has a larger wingspan than Thomas. Brick is probably a better technician in the pass protection game than Thomas. More good news for Jets fans, brick has already proven he can play at this level, Thomas it is _assumed_ he can play but until he has actually proven it, who can say for sure? Brick has a black belt in karate - probably better overall balance and body control.

Both are excellent left tackle prospects. Neither are perfect prospects, and Im not sure that either really measure up to the gold standards of pace and ogden as Prospects.

ask me to choose between them, i probably pick Brick because he is a known quantity and local - but i am admittedly biased.

i could take him

[baamf]

McNeil had to pass block 2x less than Brick - SD was scared to let Rivers throw until week 10 and the Jets had no running game to speak of... to compare the two and say one sucks the other is awesome is misinformed.

this is really about as nice as I can put it without getting insulting, you are grossly misinformed my friend.

Interesting stats. The Jets had 30.1 pass attempts per game, while the Chargers had 29.1. Doesn't sound like 2x to me. Also be informed that the Jets had 30.7 rush attempts per game, while the Chargers had 32.6 per game. Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. And by the way, don't try putting words in my mouth, I never said Brick sucks and McNeill is awesome. If you want to have insightful discussions on a message board, first learn how to read. What I said was I expected more of a McNeill like season from Brick when he was selected at #4 overall. I like Brick and think he can improve but he did not have a great season this year....

[bitonti]

FYI Marcus Mcneil has spinal stenosis - it's a problem. he will not be in the league long as brick, that's why he fell to the second round.

you are comparing Brick to a fluke and asking why can't Brick be a fluke too?

look at the history of the position, before Mcneil the last tackle drafted to start from Day 1 was Chris Samuels 6 years ago. Jon Ogden is the greatest LT of all time, and he started at Guard. The fact that Brick started at LT and did a servicable job at 22 means he had a great year, regardless of what anyone says.

[baamf]

FYI Marcus Mcneil has spinal stenosis - it's a problem. he will not be in the league long as brick, that's why he fell to the second round.

you are comparing Brick to a fluke and asking why can't Brick be a fluke too?

look at the history of the position, before Mcneil the last tackle drafted to start from Day 1 was Chris Samuels 6 years ago. Jon Ogden is the greatest LT of all time, and he started at Guard. The fact that Brick started at LT and did a servicable job at 22 means he had a great year, regardless of what anyone says.

Okay, now we are going to have an intelligent discussion. First off, spinal stenosis does not mean that McNeill will not be in the league as long as Brick. I have spinal stenosis and have had surgery already to alleviate most of my symptoms, you nor I can predict if this condition will have any affect at all on his career. I agree though that this is the reason he lasted to the second round. So your next argument is that the year that McNeill had is a fluke and want to compare him to Samuels. Well looking at the numbers this year, McNeill gave up a sack every 93.2 pass attempts. In Samuels rookie year he gave up a sack every 93.3 pass attempts. By the way, Brick this year gave up a sack every 48.8 pass attempts. Whose the fluke?

So again, sure it was nice that Brick could come in and start every game, but he did not play well. In all likelihood we could have had the same production out of Adrian Jones. The good thing is he has the tools and will likely get better, but you can clearly compare him (fairly I might add) to others who have started their first year at LT and see he did not perform comparably.

[bitonti]

Okay, now we are going to have an intelligent discussion. First off, spinal stenosis does not mean that McNeill will not be in the league as long as Brick. I have spinal stenosis and have had surgery already to alleviate most of my symptoms, you nor I can predict if this condition will have any affect at all on his career. I agree though that this is the reason he lasted to the second round. So your next argument is that the year that McNeill had is a fluke and want to compare him to Samuels. Well looking at the numbers this year, McNeill gave up a sack every 93.2 pass attempts. In Samuels rookie year he gave up a sack every 93.3 pass attempts. By the way, Brick this year gave up a sack every 48.8 pass attempts. Whose the fluke?

So again, sure it was nice that Brick could come in and start every game, but he did not play well. In all likelihood we could have had the same production out of Adrian Jones. The good thing is he has the tools and will likely get better, but you can clearly compare him (fairly I might add) to others who have started their first year at LT and see he did not perform comparably.

the original statement i made still stands, the fact the Brick started at LT as a rookie makes it a successful year, pretty much regardless of his performance as you define it.

you want to define success as sacks given up?

How about this stat: Chad Pennington finished his first season start to finish since he got the starting job.

i'd really like to know where you are getting these stats from, especially stats on Samuels sacks given up in the year 2000

assuming everything you said is correct for the sake of argument, he was the victim of overhype, not uncommon for a player selected _that_ high

by the way McNeil hasn't had surgery for his stenosis. I don't know anything about that procedure but im willing to guess having it would derail one's NFL career.

[baamf]

the original statement i made still stands, the fact the Brick started at LT as a rookie makes it a successful year, pretty much regardless of his performance as you define it.

you want to define success as sacks given up?

How about this stat: Chad Pennington finished his first season start to finish since he got the starting job.

i'd really like to know where you are getting these stats from, especially stats on Samuels sacks given up in the year 2000

assuming everything you said is correct for the sake of argument, he was the victim of overhype, not uncommon for a player selected _that_ high

by the way McNeil hasn't had surgery for his stenosis. I don't know anything about that procedure but im willing to guess having it would derail one's NFL career.

Okay, so you believe Brick had a successful year because he started every game. I could buy that because he gained valuable experience that should help further his career. I have used sacks as a stat here because it is one of the most important for a LT. I could put up the rushing number stats when they ran over LT but these are also clearly in favor of McNeill (4.9 yards to 3.6 yards).

As for Chad finishing the entire year; based on the fact that Brick gave up 10 sacks (one every 48.8 pass attempts) I think his presence had very little to do with it. Adrian Jones only gave up 8 sacks (one every 58.7 pass attempts) last year.

The original point was that I expected better production out of Brick this year than we got. For some reason this irked you and instead of trying to discuss it you tried to insult my intelligence without using any facts or knowledge. After having your arguments proved wrong you have changed your position to his season was successful because he started all year and Chad didn't get hurt. In addition, he was probably overhyped to begin with. That's fair, it's your opinion and your entitled to it.

As for where I get my stats, there are tons of places to get them. I have hundreds of books on NFL history and yearly stat and media guides, I'm bit of a memorabilia collector. In addition, there are many web sites, some free, some fee based that can provide you such. As for the Samuels data that can be found here

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5032&Submit=Go

One more note, I was on my feet again the day after my back surgery. Many football players have similar surgery and heal quickly. Again, it is something neither you nor I can judge in his case, so you should not use it to bolster an argument.

[bitonti]

first off the stats themselves are often flawed, day after the game i've seen stats that say vilma had 13 tackles and then go to another site and it says he had 7 - who are recording these stats? who is to be believed?

a left tackle isn't great when he produces stats - he's great when he prevents the stats of others

left tackle is by definition a position that defies using stats as an evaluation tool

if you really believe that Chad would have not only made it through the year but been confident as he was with Adrian Jones protecting his blind side, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Admittedly Brick wore down as the year went on, he went from 310ish to about 290ish that's a problem too but something that can be corrected.

[baamf]

first off the stats themselves are often flawed, day after the game i've seen stats that say vilma had 13 tackles and then go to another site and it says he had 7 - who are recording these stats? who is to be believed?

a left tackle isn't great when he produces stats - he's great when he prevents the stats of others

left tackle is by definition a position that defies using stats as an evaluation tool

if you really believe that Chad would have not only made it through the year but been confident as he was with Adrian Jones protecting his blind side, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Admittedly Brick wore down as the year went on, he went from 310ish to about 290ish that's a problem too but something that can be corrected.

I agree that "tackle" stats are often flawed because they are very subjective. In fact I did a complete study of Vilma for another web site and ran into many of the inconsistencies that you mentioned, and even had to go back and re-watch some games to clear things up. I have not seen nearly the same number of problems with sacks as they are usually much more easily defined, your point is taking though. I totally agree with your statement that "a left tackle isn't great when he produces stats - he's great when he prevents the stats of others", that is precisely the problem with Brick this year, he did produce to many unfavorable stats. Your next bolded line above contradicts the previously quoted line from you so you're kind of all over that place with that one.

I do believe that Chad would have made it through this year with Adrian Jones at LT (although I never said he would be confident, you added that one yourself). But seeing that is just conjecture it doesn't do us any good discussing it.

I agree that Brick did wear down, and his performance did slip mightily as the year went on. The weight problem should be addressed in the offseason and I agree it should be correctable. I go back to my original point, I like Brick and think he has a lot of upside. I am also confident from what I've seen that he will improve and become more dominant. But with that said, there is still no way I can agree with you that his first year was successful. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.....

[PeterNorth09]

FYI Marcus Mcneil has spinal stenosis - it's a problem. he will not be in the league long as brick, that's why he fell to the second round.

you are comparing Brick to a fluke and asking why can't Brick be a fluke too?

look at the history of the position, before Mcneil the last tackle drafted to start from Day 1 was Chris Samuels 6 years ago. Jon Ogden is the greatest LT of all time, and he started at Guard. The fact that Brick started at LT and did a servicable job at 22 means he had a great year, regardless of what anyone says.

Wow, from the way you talk about McNeill the guy is lucky he can even walk. I wonder how he managed to make the Pro Bowl as a starter? Luck I guess.

Last year's draft was loaded with talent at the OT position. McNeill was one of the highest rated OT's coming out of college but the hype machine for some silly reasons felt he wasn't as good a prospect as a 280 lb guy who can't run block.

The only reason Brick started last year was because he had no competition at the LT position. Adrian Jones and Anthony Clement were going to take playing time away from him? If the Jets had signed Jon Runyan or Kevin Shaffer like they wanted to Brick would have probably spent the season riding pine.

Look, Brick isn't a bad player, however, if you're going to use the 4th pick in the draft on a OT is it asking too much for him to be good at BOTH pass protecting and run-blocking?

[bitonti]

The only reason Brick started last year was because he had no competition at the LT position.

untrue - no NFL coach will start a player at LT unless he can do the job

[PeterNorth09]

untrue - no NFL coach will start a player at LT unless he can do the job

Which was why Herm Edwards started Jason Fabini in 2005. Just ask Pennington and Jay Fiedler.